British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

rrpc

GerM wrote: »

Bingo. He was absolutely heroic in that Wasps team. He wasn't pretty but he was an extremely effective blindside. Tackled himself to death, hit like a train, decent in the lineout and a nuisance at the ruck. The guy managed 80 caps despite his time coinciding with the greatest, Richard Hill.

I think Lions midweek was about right and was delighted to see him get some recognition. Always came across as a fierce nice bloke too and extremely humble.

One of my favourite English players for those very qualities. Always epitomised to me how hard work and honesty of effort could make a great career from average talent.

Fishooks12

My team if I had to pick it in the morning

15 R Kearney
14 Cuthbert
13 BOD (Captain)
12 Roberts
11 Visser
10 Sexton
9 Care
8 Heaslip
7 Armitage
6 Ferris
5 POC
4 Lawes
3 Jones
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Strauss
17 Marler
18 Cole
19 Grey
20 SOB
21 Phillips
22 Laidlaw
23 North

Fireball07

Not far off what I'd have but:

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Davies
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Care
8. Heaslip
7. Tipuric
6. Ferris
5. POC
4. Gray
3. Jones
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Hartley
17. Jenkins
18. Cole
19. Lawes
20. SOB
21. Laidlaw/Reddan
22. Laidlaw/Farrell
23. Halfpenny


I think Davies is better than Roberts, and I'm a big Tipuric fan. Scrum-half is the big problem position, and we're lacking a really good alternative to Sexton too.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

There was uproar in the English press when Croft wasn't selected. They went bananas over Quinlan being ahead of him (and I'm pretty sure that Luke Fitz wouldn't be getting his eyes checked out if Quinlan was around) long before Quinlan's ban. Sky replayed the slowed down incident repeatedly. If Croft had been selected in the first place, there wouldn't have been as much as an outcry over Quinlan.

Tin foil hat stuff. Croft was correctly called in when Quinlan was suspended as he was a like for like replacement i.e. a mobile blindside that was a line out specialist. His competition was Ryan Jones who was off the boil and dropped by Wales as the 6N had progressed. Croft had finished the 6N very strongly and had a very good HEC. He was MOTM against France and in the HEC semi-final the week before being called up. Simple facts rather than conjecture and wild theories. Those are the reasons he was brought into the squad.

The notion that Sky had something to do with Quinlan's ban is ridiculous. The incident wasn't at the bottom of a ruck. It was in clear play where everyone watching could see and attention was drawn to it immediately on the pitch. The second it happened, he was banned.

GerM

If I had to go with a surprise selection right now, Mike Ross is putting his hand up. If he has a good 6N, I'd certainly expect him to make the plane. He has really stepped up so far this season putting a few opposition scrums to the sword but also carrying and tackling well above what we've seen in the past. Australia's achilles heal is their scrum and I think we'll see the strongest scrummagers travel. AJ is clearly the frontrunner but he's having a bad time of it with injury right now so anything could happen.

Fishooks12

GerM wrote: »

If I had to go with a surprise selection right now, Mike Ross is putting his hand up. If he has a good 6N, I'd certainly expect him to make the plane. He has really stepped up so far this season putting a few opposition scrums to the sword but also carrying and tackling well above what we've seen in the past. Australia's achilles heal is their scrum and I think we'll see the strongest scrummagers travel. AJ is clearly the frontrunner but he's having a bad time of it with injury right now so anything could happen.

Ross has really improved his handling skills lately. Always seems to get over the gainline at least once a game these days too

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

Worsley was crap, crap, crap solid but unspectacular. I would have been the first to cry English favouritism in that instance. On the other hand, I think Croft was unfairly maligned. He might not quite have the physical presence, but he is quick on his feet, and damned reliable in the lineout.

By popular demand...

Swiwi

GerM wrote: »

If I had to go with a surprise selection right now, Mike Ross is putting his hand up. If he has a good 6N, I'd certainly expect him to make the plane. He has really stepped up so far this season putting a few opposition scrums to the sword but also carrying and tackling well above what we've seen in the past. Australia's achilles heal is their scrum and I think we'll see the strongest scrummagers travel. AJ is clearly the frontrunner but he's having a bad time of it with injury right now so anything could happen.

It's becoming less and less of a problem though. It won't win them any games, but they have become pretty good at holding their own. I wouldn't base a whole Lions tour around defeating their scrum.

And I agree with those posters who say 9 is potentially the Achilles heel for the Lions - definitely the position most up for a bolter.

Tox56

If Danny Care keeps up his form he could work really well in a Lions backline. Between him and Sexton we'd have good options in the two problem positions. Obviously beyond those two things don't look good, but they've both been playing well and suit the gameplan you would think Gatland will implement.

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

It's becoming less and less of a problem though. It won't win them any games, but they have become pretty good at holding their own. I wouldn't base a whole Lions tour around defeating their scrum.

And I agree with those posters who say 9 is potentially the Achilles heel for the Lions - definitely the position most up for a bolter.

If we have 23 man squads by then the Aussies will be facing the prospect of Mike Ross or Dan Cole coming off the bench after 50/60 minutes of Adam Jones, I think we could wreak havoc there.

GerM

Tox56 wrote: »

If Danny Care keeps up his form he could work really well in a Lions backline. Between him and Sexton we'd have good options in the two problem positions. Obviously beyond those two things don't look good, but they've both been playing well and suit the gameplan you would think Gatland will implement.

Yeah, think Care is the man in pole position right now. Phillips will probably step up and deliver a few big performances in the 6N. He has the habit of delivering when he needs to. Care has been very good this season though. He's like a higher calibre Reddan. He really buzzes around the field and varies his game very well. Sexton would work very outside him, I feel. Care's breaking threat would keep any back row honest and allow Sexton that extra half second to dictate play.

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

If we have 23 man squads by then the Aussies will be facing the prospect of Mike Ross or Dan Cole coming off the bench after 50/60 minutes of Adam Jones, I think we could wreak havoc there.

It was what I thought too heading into the 4N - yet neither NZ nor SA nor Argentina managed to destroy the Aussie scrum. They do have better props these days since Matt Gunning et al retired.

I mean, I would definitely target their scrum, but a Plan B is essential, as I am no longer certain their scrum will just stand up and fold at the sign of a Lions forward pack.

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

It was what I thought too heading into the 4N - yet neither NZ nor SA nor Argentina managed to destroy the Aussie scrum. They do have better props these days since Matt Gunning et al retired.

I mean, I would definitely target their scrum, but a Plan B is essential, as I am no longer certain their scrum will just stand up and fold at the sign of a Lions forward pack.

We've got the resources of 3 different countries at tighthead though, even if we don't destroy them from the start, the bench could be key

GerM

Swiwi wrote: »

It's becoming less and less of a problem though. It won't win them any games, but they have become pretty good at holding their own. I wouldn't base a whole Lions tour around defeating their scrum.

You're right, they shouldn't base it around it and that would probably back fire. They'll certainly look to go at the Aussie scrum, I feel though. Tox has made the point though that I should have. Australia's depth in the front five isn't great. Robinson could spend 55 minutes giving it his all against AJ and then have to deal with Dan Cole rampaging for 25 minutes.

Swiwi

GerM wrote: »

You're right, they shouldn't base it around it and that would probably back fire. They'll certainly look to go at the Aussie scrum, I feel though. Tox has made the point though that I should have. Australia's depth in the front five isn't great. Robinson could spend 55 minutes giving it his all against AJ and then have to deal with Dan Cole rampaging for 25 minutes.

It will be interesting to see if that 23-man rule stands. The Aussies rejected the experimental rule variations for the recent Bledisloe decider in Brisbane (maybe for the very reasons you & Tox outline), so it may not be in place come Lions time.

irishbucsfan

Yeah I'm not so sure they'll adopt the 23 man squad for this tour. May be the last ever Lions tour without it.

Nothing to stop us going with a 5/2 split and having Laidlaw on the bench though.

CIARAN_BOYLE

They've a couple of decent props but if there are injuries then cover is basically paper thin

Much like Ireand at TH that if you took Ross out then the next best prop is significantly worse. Well Australia is like that on both sides afaik

leonard7

except for laidlaw not being good enough

thomond2006

leonard7 wrote: »

except for laidlaw not being good enough

The Lions aren't exactly picking from a pool of outstanding halfbacks.

Fishooks12

leonard7 wrote: »

except for laidlaw not being good enough

He's a decent international ten. And he can also cover 9

I'd rather him over Flood or Priestland

Ciaran-Irl

cgpg5 wrote: »

I'm no Monye fan but he was the in-form winger going into that test in all fairness. There were very few at the time iirc who would have argued against his selection. Shane WIlliams had an awful tour in the warm up games and McGeechan had to be applauded for not picking on reputation. Unfortunately the selection didn't pay off but that's the way it goes

There should be a fair amount of English guys this time around pushing for selection. Of course it'll depend on how the 6n goes but they should have won the slam this year and they'll be close again I feel

At this moment in time Marler, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Robshaw, Care, Farrell, Tuilagi, Ashton, Foden are as good as certainties to make the plane

I don't think you could make a case that some of those lot are anything close to certainties.

Ashton (and Saracens generally) hasn't been scoring many tries lately, and that's all he is good for, other than getting into fights. Plenty of English commentators are saying he shouldn't even be starting for England right now. Foden has been out injured for ages, and isn't close to coming back. Marler isn't even guaranteed to start for England ahead of Corbisiero, and given that Gethin Jenkins and Cian Healy are very likely to travel, there is at most one other specialist Lossehead place up for grabs. I reckon a guy like Matt Stevens is a much more likely contender, given that he plays both sides. Gatland hates Hartley with a passion, so that leaves a doubt about him, though he is still a likely contender for a seat on the plane in fairness. For the halves, it's very unlikely that Care & Youngs and Farrell & Flood will all travel, so it's a straight shoot out between them, making none of them certainties. Lawes and Tuilagi have questionable discipline, meaning that they are definitely not certainties. Also, there could only be two 13s, so it could easily be O'Driscoll & Davies. Backrow is probably the most competitive position, meaning that no backrow can be classed as a certainty really. It would be very easy to imagine Warburton, Tipuric and SOB travelling. Will they really bring a fourth 7?

Of the group you have there, I'd say that Dan Cole is the only certainty, barring injury. A few others are very probable, but not certain.

In 2008, in the initial squad they had 37 players. There were 3 Hookers, 5 Props, 5 Locks, 7 back rows, 3 scrum halves, 3 fly halves, 4 centres, 5 wingers and 2 full backs. It wouldn't be hard to come up with a very credibly squad without any of those players mentioned (I'm not saying this is my squad, but it is credible).

3 hookers: Best, Matthew Rees, Strauss

5 Props: Healy, Jenkins, Cole, Jones and Matt Stevens.

5 Locks: O'Connell, Gray, AW Jones, Tom Palmer & Hines (he can play 6)

7 back rows: Lydiate, Ferris, Warburton, Tipuric, Heaslip, Falatau & O'Brien

6 Halves: Flood, Sexton, Priestland, Young, Philipps, Murray

4 Centres: Davies (13), O'Driscoll (13), Roberts (12), Barrit (12)

5 Wings: North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Visser, Stuart Hogg

2 FB: Halfpenny, Kearney

Even that squad leaves out tons of players that plenty of people would bring, like Denton or Earls or Hook or McFadden or Charteris/Bradley Davies or Donncha Ryan etc. etc.

Ciaran-Irl

For the record, my test team right now would be the below, assuming a 22 man squad.

Healy, Best, Jones
O'Connell, Hines
Lydiate, Warburton, Heaslip (C)
Care, Sexton,
Roberts, O'Driscoll
North, Visser
Kearney

Strauss, Stevens, O'Brien, Philipps, Biggar, Halfpenny

Scioch

You really think Murray will make the Lions ? What do people see in him that I dont ? His greatest asset as far as I can see is that he's young enough and talented enough to eventually be world class. But I just cant understand how he's climbed to starting international and possible Lion based on what he's done.

What am I missing ?

Fishooks12

Scioch wrote: »

You really think Murray will make the Lions ? What do people see in him that I dont ? His greatest asset as far as I can see is that he's young enough and talented enough to eventually be world class. But I just cant understand how he's climbed to starting international and possible Lion based on what he's done.

What am I missing ?

The dirth of quality nines starting for the home nations. Murray might make the plane if he hangs on the Irish jersey between now and then given the only better options would involve taking 2 English 9s which probably wouldn't happen.

Now I wouldn't mind seeing him travel but he really needs to improve his consistency in relation to his performances

GerM

He's in with a shot. Right now we'll probably see Care and Phillips on the plane. It's up to Murray to put his hand up for the final slot but beyond those two, it's very up in the air. There's no stand out candidate. It will all depend on how the 6N goes.

Scioch

What about poor old Reddan ? Surely he's a good option for that third spot given the lack of people sticking their hands up ?

GerM

Scioch wrote: »

What about poor old Reddan ? Surely he's a good option for that third spot given the lack of people sticking their hands up ?

If he can't get the Irish jersey, it's going to be very unlikely. It's a specialist position. If a player isn't playing regularly at top level then he'll find it very difficult to get the call ahead of those who are. Not impossible but he's at a significant disadvantage.

cgpg5

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I don't think you could make a case that some of those lot are anything close to certainties.

Ashton (and Saracens generally) hasn't been scoring many tries lately, and that's all he is good for, other than getting into fights. Plenty of English commentators are saying he shouldn't even be starting for England right now. Foden has been out injured for ages, and isn't close to coming back. Marler isn't even guaranteed to start for England ahead of Corbisiero, and given that Gethin Jenkins and Cian Healy are very likely to travel, there is at most one other specialist Lossehead place up for grabs. I reckon a guy like Matt Stevens is a much more likely contender, given that he plays both sides. Gatland hates Hartley with a passion, so that leaves a doubt about him, though he is still a likely contender for a seat on the plane in fairness. For the halves, it's very unlikely that Care & Youngs and Farrell & Flood will all travel, so it's a straight shoot out between them, making none of them certainties. Lawes and Tuilagi have questionable discipline, meaning that they are definitely not certainties. Also, there could only be two 13s, so it could easily be O'Driscoll & Davies. Backrow is probably the most competitive position, meaning that no backrow can be classed as a certainty really. It would be very easy to imagine Warburton, Tipuric and SOB travelling. Will they really bring a fourth 7?

Of the group you have there, I'd say that Dan Cole is the only certainty, barring injury. A few others are very probable, but not certain.

In 2008, in the initial squad they had 37 players. There were 3 Hookers, 5 Props, 5 Locks, 7 back rows, 3 scrum halves, 3 fly halves, 4 centres, 5 wingers and 2 full backs. It wouldn't be hard to come up with a very credibly squad without any of those players mentioned (I'm not saying this is my squad, but it is credible).

3 hookers: Best, Matthew Rees, Strauss

5 Props: Healy, Jenkins, Cole, Jones and Matt Stevens.

5 Locks: O'Connell, Gray, AW Jones, Tom Palmer & Hines (he can play 6)

7 back rows: Lydiate, Ferris, Warburton, Tipuric, Heaslip, Falatau & O'Brien

6 Halves: Flood, Sexton, Priestland, Young, Philipps, Murray

4 Centres: Davies (13), O'Driscoll (13), Roberts (12), Barrit (12)

5 Wings: North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Visser, Stuart Hogg

2 FB: Halfpenny, Kearney

Even that squad leaves out tons of players that plenty of people would bring, like Denton or Earls or Hook or McFadden or Charteris/Bradley Davies or Donncha Ryan etc. etc.

I said as good as certainties, not actual certainties

It is pointless debating this cos we'll never really know. I'm talking about as it stands, however a lot will change of course

Marler has been the form prop in England and will start 6n barring a major drop in form. Hartley will be England number 1 hooker and that gives him a major advantage over Strauss, who knowing Kidney may not even feature in every match in the 6n, never mind for long in them. Rees won't tour anyway I'd imagine so it'll very likely be Hartley, Best and Strauss anyway (for the record I myself rate Strauss higher than Hartley)

If Lawes isn't a certainty now not many are. The same goes for Care. They have probably been the best two players in the prem so far this year. Youngs is nowhere near Care and I'd be disappointed if Joe Simpson didn't make the 6n bench ahead of him. Again the English first choice fly half will very likely be sub lions 10 and as it stands that is Farrell so you'd have to say he's all but a certainty at this moment in time. There are very few standout options at 10.

Barritt probably won't start much for England , Lancaster has taken a liking to JJ. Tuilagi probably won't be close to the test 12/13 jersey but I can't see them leaving him at home. Ashton, I'll give you that one, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see him left at home indeed.

Foden will be well back for 6n afaik, and is very likely to start, though I rate Brown highly

I'm basing a lot of this on the fact that I think England are the current best NH team and that this will show in 6n. Therefore they'll have a good representation

Fishooks12

cgpg5 wrote: »

I said as good as certainties, not actual certainties

It is pointless debating this cos we'll never really know. I'm talking about as it stands, however a lot will change of course

Marler has been the form prop in England and will start 6n barring a major drop in form. Hartley will be England number 1 hooker and that gives him a major advantage over Strauss, who knowing Kidney may not even feature in every match in the 6n, never mind for long in them. Rees won't tour anyway I'd imagine so it'll very likely be Hartley, Best and Strauss anyway (for the record I myself rate Strauss higher than Hartley)

If Lawes isn't a certainty now not many are. The same goes for Care. They have probably been the best two players in the prem so far this year. Youngs is nowhere near Care and I'd be disappointed if Joe Simpson didn't make the 6n bench ahead of him. Again the English first choice fly half will very likely be sub lions 10 and as it stands that is Farrell so you'd have to say he's all but a certainty at this moment in time. There are very few standout options at 10.

Barritt probably won't start much for England , Lancaster has taken a liking to JJ. Tuilagi probably won't be close to the test 12/13 jersey but I can't see them leaving him at home. Ashton, I'll give you that one, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see him left at home indeed.

Foden will be well back for 6n afaik, and is very likely to start, though I rate Brown highly

I'm basing a lot of this on the fact that I think England are the current best NH team and that this will show in 6n. Therefore they'll have a good representation

That's definitely not a fact. It's an opinion, and not one I'd agree with

Scioch

GerM wrote: »

If he can't get the Irish jersey, it's going to be very unlikely. It's a specialist position. If a player isn't playing regularly at top level then he'll find it very difficult to get the call ahead of those who are. Not impossible but he's at a significant disadvantage.

Its not like he hasnt been able to get ahead of Murray performance wise though, he has just been largely ignored by the infamous Mr Kidney. Reddan imo far exceeds Murray in ability and what he brings to the team.

I suppose your right as far as selection goes, probably not much point in hoping he gets much time in the 6 nations either going on the recent past.