British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

cgpg5

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That's definitely not a fact. It's an opinion, and not one I'd agree with

"The fact that I THINK..."

Ah I dunno

Of course it's an opinion mr pedantic

Fishooks12

cgpg5 wrote: »

"The fact that I THINK..."

Ah I dunno

Of course it's an opinion mr pedantic

Ah fair enough. Apologies.

Although I think Wales, France and Ireland (Under the right management) have better players to pick from

Ciaran-Irl

cgpg5 wrote: »

I said as good as certainties, not actual certainties

It is pointless debating this cos we'll never really know. I'm talking about as it stands, however a lot will change of course

Marler has been the form prop in England and will start 6n barring a major drop in form. Hartley will be England number 1 hooker and that gives him a major advantage over Strauss, who knowing Kidney may not even feature in every match in the 6n, never mind for long in them. Rees won't tour anyway I'd imagine so it'll very likely be Hartley, Best and Strauss anyway (for the record I myself rate Strauss higher than Hartley)

If Lawes isn't a certainty now not many are. The same goes for Care. They have probably been the best two players in the prem so far this year. Youngs is nowhere near Care and I'd be disappointed if Joe Simpson didn't make the 6n bench ahead of him. Again the English first choice fly half will very likely be sub lions 10 and as it stands that is Farrell so you'd have to say he's all but a certainty at this moment in time. There are very few standout options at 10.

Barritt probably won't start much for England , Lancaster has taken a liking to JJ. Tuilagi probably won't be close to the test 12/13 jersey but I can't see them leaving him at home. Ashton, I'll give you that one, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see him left at home indeed.

Foden will be well back for 6n afaik, and is very likely to start, though I rate Brown highly

I'm basing a lot of this on the fact that I think England are the current best NH team and that this will show in 6n. Therefore they'll have a good representation

Some will travel of that lot, for sure. I don't think Murray or Barrit will travel at all, and Care, Hartley & Tuilagi probably will. I'm really just saying that nobody is a certainty right now though. Lawes and Robshaw have a good shot, but they are in very competitive positions.

I very much doubt Ashton/Foden/Marler will travel though. It's one thing to name a good player and think that they are likely to travel, but if you actually think through who they have to get ahead of, it is a different story altogether. It's one thing to say Marler is good, but will he go ahead of Healy and Jenkins? Only two Looseheads will travel, so which one would he be ahead of? Same with Foden. Only two specialist full back will travel, so will he be ahead of Halfpenny or will he be ahead of Kearney? Likewise, the people here calling for Mike Ross - would he really be ahead of Jones and Cole? I doubt it.

cgpg5

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ah fair enough. Apologies.

Although I think Wales, France and Ireland (Under the right management) have better players to pick from

That's a valid point.

If England beat us in Aviva, which I think they will, they are in a great position to win a slam. Wales and England is always close, they have a real edge on France in the 6n and they don't have to worry about a banana skin in Murrayfield.

This is a tad OT apologies but not irrelevant. Slam winners will always have high representation

Of course this is all speculation and they may lose 3 games but I don't see it

Deano7788

cgpg5 wrote: »

I said as good as certainties, not actual certainties

It is pointless debating this cos we'll never really know. I'm talking about as it stands, however a lot will change of course

Marler has been the form prop in England and will start 6n barring a major drop in form. Hartley will be England number 1 hooker and that gives him a major advantage over Strauss, who knowing Kidney may not even feature in every match in the 6n, never mind for long in them. Rees won't tour anyway I'd imagine so it'll very likely be Hartley, Best and Strauss anyway (for the record I myself rate Strauss higher than Hartley)

If Lawes isn't a certainty now not many are. The same goes for Care. They have probably been the best two players in the prem so far this year. Youngs is nowhere near Care and I'd be disappointed if Joe Simpson didn't make the 6n bench ahead of him. Again the English first choice fly half will very likely be sub lions 10 and as it stands that is Farrell so you'd have to say he's all but a certainty at this moment in time. There are very few standout options at 10.

Barritt probably won't start much for England , Lancaster has taken a liking to JJ. Tuilagi probably won't be close to the test 12/13 jersey but I can't see them leaving him at home. Ashton, I'll give you that one, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see him left at home indeed.

Foden will be well back for 6n afaik, and is very likely to start, though I rate Brown highly

I'm basing a lot of this on the fact that I think England are the current best NH team and that this will show in 6n. Therefore they'll have a good representation

Just on this, Simpson isn't even 1 of the 3 scrum-halves in the EPS squad for November so he's a long way down the pecking order. Also, Flood is actually the current 10. Farrell was dropped during the SA tour and can't even start at 10 for Saracens at the moment.

irishbucsfan

Ah now, Farrell can start for Sarries. They rotate their 10s. He started yesterday.

It's like fans of a certain persuasion saying Reddan couldn't hold down a starting place for Leinster in the past. They use different 10s based on how they want to play the game.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah now, Farrell can start for Sarries. They rotate their 10s. He started yesterday.

It's like fans of a certain persuasion saying Reddan couldn't hold down a starting place for Leinster in the past. They use different 10s based on how they want to play the game.

Farrell has been in awful form recently, and Flood had a MOTM performance v Ospreys in the H Cup, so I'd say he's the England ten as it stands.

Deano7788

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah now, Farrell can start for Sarries. They rotate their 10s. He started yesterday.

It's like fans of a certain persuasion saying Reddan couldn't hold down a starting place for Leinster in the past. They use different 10s based on how they want to play the game.

Whenever he starts, though, they play noticeably worse imo. Hodgson is seen as 1st choice there.

irishbucsfan

Deano7788 wrote: »

Whenever he starts, though, they play noticeably worse imo. Hodgson is seen as 1st choice there.

Well I should be clear and say i live in London and play for a club full of Sarries men and I don't think anyone is considered first choice. Either inside or outside the team.

I think they attack much better with Hodgson in the team but they are pretty much unbeatable with Farrell in the side. If Hodgson is first choice then why did Farrell start against Leicester, Northampton and Harlequins? He's played the big games so far.

It really is a horses for courses thing they have going on over here.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Farrell has been in awful form recently, and Flood had a MOTM performance v Ospreys in the H Cup, so I'd say he's the England ten as it stands.

He hasn't been in awful form. When were these "awful" games?

Kiwi_knock

I think there will be a fair few English players in the squad, but maybe not challenging for places amongst the first 15. I can see them though making up the bulk of the midweek side. For me, Robshaw seems like a likely choice for midweek captain. I say Hartley is nearly a certainty as well, I am not entirely sure that Strauss will be in the squad. Not sure if he will get enough international gametime between now and the tests.

A while ago it seemed like Foden and Ashton could be certs for a starting place, but now it seems like neither might tour. I think Ashton's try scoring ability should be enough to get him into the squad. Foden has a bit of versatility, but he really needs to be on top form. There are better players out there than him so it would seem likely that he will miss out.

I think Tuilagi will and should tour. He offers something different in the centre, and his presence might force Australia to play the more defensively sound Pat McCabe or Anthony Fainga'a in midfield which would effect their attacking game.

I would not be shocked to see two English scrum halfs (Care and Youngs) tour along with Phillips. Phillips had a disappointing summer test against Australia, so I do think we need a best passer and quicker player at scrum half to release our backline. I am a fan of Youngs, I think if he shows some consistency and maturity over the year he could be a potential starter.

Also we should bring Cipriani so he can continue to have that positive effect on Beale and O'Connor's careers.

Deano7788

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He hasn't been in awful form. When were these "awful" games?

Leicester.
They don't score tries with him at ten. They've scored a grand total of 1. If he's playing at 10 he has to get his kicks; it's his main purpose and if he can't do it he's not doing his job well. He missed 4 of 5 in this game.

Also with Farrell at 10, they drew with Leicester and lost to Exeter, their only loss this season, so hardly unbeatable.

Anyway this is slightly OT. Imo he's nowhere near good enough for the Lions and offers no creativity whatsoever; his passing game is terrible. Flood would have the best chance of any of the English outhalves.

irishbucsfan

Deano7788 wrote: »

Leicester.
They don't score tries with him at ten. They've scored a grand total of 1. If he's playing at 10 he has to get his kicks; it's his main purpose and if he can't do it he's not doing his job well. He missed 4 of 5 in this game.

Also with Farrell at 10, they drew with Leicester and lost to Exeter, their only loss this season, so hardly unbeatable.

Anyway this is slightly OT. Imo he's nowhere near good enough for the Lions and offers no creativity whatsoever; his passing game is terrible. Flood would have the best chance of any of the English outhalves.

Leicester was his first game of the season. And he wasn't awful, he brought them to Welford Road and they drew, which is not something many teams can do.

It's not a pretty style of rugby, but it's what they want to do. I much prefer them with Hodgson at 10. I'm just pointing out that when you said Farrell isn't first choice at Saracens, it's not exactly true. I wouldn't be surprised if Farrell starts in Thomond Park.

Deano7788

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leicester was his first game of the season. And he wasn't awful, he brought them to Welford Road and they drew, which is not something many teams can do.

It's not a pretty style of rugby, but it's what they want to do. I much prefer them with Hodgson at 10. I'm just pointing out that when you said Farrell isn't first choice at Saracens, it's not exactly true. I wouldn't be surprised if Farrell starts in Thomond Park.

I'd be happier.:pac:

And Saracens were at home against Leicester I think. It was on in Wembley.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He hasn't been in awful form. When were these "awful" games?

For England he had a bad game against the Barbarians in the summer and after the South Africa tests they were really laying into him on Sky, passing and distribution all over the shop, looked like he was lacking in confidence. England started him for the first test and subsequently dropped him for the second and third. Hodgson started both H Cup games at 10 for Sarries and they looked a real attacking threat.

Rotation works for regular season games and to an extent for H Cup games, but you need to be starting big games at 10 for your club if you want to play there for your country, Farrell was on the bench v Edinburgh and at 13 v Racing.

Hodgson has been in pretty good form himself, and given how well Sarries were playing in those two H Cup games Farrell has a fight on his hands to take that shirt, nevermind the England one. Also worth noting that Hodgson has been taking the kicks for Saracens.

irishbucsfan

I agree Farrell wasnt great for England in the summer. I thought you meant this season. However, you couldnt be more wrong: Farrell IS starting big games. Its Hodgson who isn't.

Saracens tough games so far this season have been against Quins, Leicester, Racing and Northampton. Farrell has started every single one of those, and 3/4 he has started at 10. Hodgson has started against the weaker teams like Sale and Edinburgh.

Im not saying I think Farrell is great, I'm only pointing out that whoever says he isn't starting for Saracens is wrong. Just as saying last season that Reddan couldn't hold down a starting place for Leinster was wrong. They have a coach who can play these guys to their strengths depending on the game plan. I would like to see Hodgson win the spot for because he's more entertaining. But Farrell is good at what they want to do against tougher opposition, Hodgson is good at beating lacklustre teams.

Deano7788

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I agree Farrell wasnt great for England in the summer. I thought you meant this season. However, you couldnt be more wrong: Farrell IS starting big games. Its Hodgson who isn't.

Saracens tough games so far this season have been against Quins, Leicester, Racing and Northampton. Farrell has started every single one of those, and 3/4 he has started at 10. Hodgson has started against the weaker teams like Sale and Edinburgh.

Im not saying I think Farrell is great, I'm only pointing out that whoever says he isn't starting for Saracens is wrong. Just as saying last season that Reddan couldn't hold down a starting place for Leinster was wrong. They have a coach who can play these guys to their strengths depending on the game plan. I would like to see Hodgson win the spot for because he's more entertaining. But Farrell is good at what they want to do against tougher opposition, Hodgson is good at beating lacklustre teams.

Hodgson was 10 against Racing, Farrell was 13.

irishbucsfan

Deano7788 wrote: »

Hodgson was 10 against Racing, Farrell was 13.

Yes, as I said:

Farrell has started every single one of those, and 3/4 he has started at 10.

EDIT: and of those 4 teams, I'd say Racing was the least tough.

Deano7788

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, as I said:



EDIT: and of those 4 teams, I'd say Racing was the least tough.

Sorry my bad I missed that 1 line.

Tox56

Saracens play 2 H Cup games with Hodgson at 10 and they play as well as they have all season and start scoring tries for fun. They are clearly rotating their 10's and both Farrell and Hodgson will get a chance to impress before the Munster game, but if Sarries continue to play like they have with Hodgson at 10 recently I would be disappointed and surprised if they go back to the more "structured" (i.e boring) type of game Farrell brings, even if it has been pretty successful.

English Lurker

Hello there, been lurking here a bit to get info on Irish rugby, and been tempted into breaking cover and posting given the most recent conversation here...

On Farrell - He was very poor against Leicester, place kicking appalling and no attacking spark at all. I've been to led to believe he was the same against Exeter, but haven't seen that one. In general, I don't rate him. He's clearly a fine prospect due to his boot and mental composure, but the number one duty of a fly-half should be to get the backline moving, and when it comes to that he's probably worse than half the pack. I would far rather see Flood play; he has his flaws, but nowhere on the same level - and I think he will. After Flood, there's a long list of fly-halves I'd pick first for England.

Irishbucsfan is right that he gets plenty of starts for Sarries though.

I must thank cgpg5 for his flattering description of the England side - I just wished I shared it!

cgpg5

English Lurker wrote: »

Hello there, been lurking here a bit to get info on Irish rugby, and been tempted into breaking cover and posting given the most recent conversation here...

On Farrell - He was very poor against Leicester, place kicking appalling and no attacking spark at all. I've been to led to believe he was the same against Exeter, but haven't seen that one. In general, I don't rate him. He's clearly a fine prospect due to his boot and mental composure, but the number one duty of a fly-half should be to get the backline moving, and when it comes to that he's probably worse than half the pack. I would far rather see Flood play; he has his flaws, but nowhere on the same level - and I think he will. After Flood, there's a long list of fly-halves I'd pick first for England.

Irishbucsfan is right that he gets plenty of starts for Sarries though.

I must thank cgpg5 for his flattering description of the England side - I just wished I shared it!

Ha, I wouldn't say flattering but I think this side has the potential to win a slam in a few months. Not that it may even need that almighty an effort. Ye probably should have won it this year despite being poor at times. If ye can beat Wales ye're well on ye're way, with our current management I fear the worst for our 6n team

Fly half is a spot wide open for Lions there's no doubting it. Sexton has the ten jersey sewn up as things stand but in terms of depth it is poor. It most likely means that whoever starts for England in 6n is very likely to make it. It's possible that a Welsh ten won't tour unless Biggar or someone really puts their hand up

totallegend

Suppose there's only so much they can do with a plain red jersey...

leonard7

you sound disappointed 'totallegend' i think its a quality top...if it aint broke dont fix it

Deano7788

leonard7 wrote: »

you sound disappointed 'totallegend' i think its a quality top...if it aint broke dont fix it

I'm a bit disappointed; mainly because I'm wearing the 09 one right now and the only difference is the collar and Australia under the crest. Everything else is identical. One less jersey for me to buy, I suppose.:pac:

thomond2006

Same sponsor from 2009 means little change I suppose.

English Lurker

cgpg5 wrote: »

Ha, I wouldn't say flattering but I think this side has the potential to win a slam in a few months. Not that it may even need that almighty an effort. Ye probably should have won it this year despite being poor at times. If ye can beat Wales ye're well on ye're way, with our current management I fear the worst for our 6n team

Fly half is a spot wide open for Lions there's no doubting it. Sexton has the ten jersey sewn up as things stand but in terms of depth it is poor. It most likely means that whoever starts for England in 6n is very likely to make it. It's possible that a Welsh ten won't tour unless Biggar or someone really puts their hand up

Well that's more flattering than I would be... time will tell on that front.

As for fly-half - very open. Looks like Sexton-Flood-Laidlaw to me right now but that's really a bit ho-hum, and I'm more than expecting a bolter there - one of Paddy Jackson, Duncan Weir, Freddie Burns or maybe that Patchell kid in Wales. Biggar's playing well, but never seems to nail it down for Wales, so I'm not expecting him. Still can't believe how quickly Priestland's gone from hero to zero.

Just as long as it's not Farrell as he is now!

Fireball07

If Priestland plays every game for Wales in the 6N, I'd be surprised if Gatland didn't bring him on the Lions aswell. Doesn't deserve it but I'd still be surprised.

Swiwi

English Lurker wrote: »

Hello there, been lurking here a bit to get info on Irish rugby, and been tempted into breaking cover and posting given the most recent conversation here...

On Farrell - He was very poor against Leicester, place kicking appalling and no attacking spark at all. I've been to led to believe he was the same against Exeter, but haven't seen that one. In general, I don't rate him. He's clearly a fine prospect due to his boot and mental composure, but the number one duty of a fly-half should be to get the backline moving, and when it comes to that he's probably worse than half the pack. I would far rather see Flood play; he has his flaws, but nowhere on the same level - and I think he will. After Flood, there's a long list of fly-halves I'd pick first for England.

Irishbucsfan is right that he gets plenty of starts for Sarries though.

I must thank cgpg5 for his flattering description of the England side - I just wished I shared it!

I will be delighted if you guys choose Hodgson v NZ. The last time that occurred (English tour downunder) Hodgson did a great impression of a turnstile on defence, and Nonu ran at him, round him, thru him all day. Pretty sure we scored 2 tries down his channel.

Maybe he has tightened up his defence since then, I haven't seen him play recently.

Deano7788

Swiwi wrote: »

I will be delighted if you guys choose Hodgson v NZ. The last time that occurred (English tour downunder) Hodgson did a great impression of a turnstile on defence, and Nonu ran at him, round him, thru him all day. Pretty sure we scored 2 tries down his channel.

Maybe he has tightened up his defence since then, I haven't seen him play recently.

Hodgson's retired from internationals.