British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Tox56

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

touchy! well how come most people outside ireland dont rate him as highly as those living inside the isle? they just wrong or is becasue he hasnt actually ever put in too many brilliant displays for ireland?
I want sexton to be good-i think he has all the skills-but yes he does need to start displaying it .
who are you?his brother?

I live "outside the isle" and from the people I talk to that is quite clearly not the case, then again you don't appear to rate Sexton at all:

Evans,cruden and barrett are all better imo

bamboozle

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

touchy! well how come most people outside ireland dont rate him as highly as those living inside the isle? they just wrong or is becasue he hasnt actually ever put in too many brilliant displays for ireland?
I want sexton to be good-i think he has all the skills-but yes he does need to start displaying it .
who are you?his brother?

for some reason DK selects Sexton with Conor Murray as his scrumhalf, Murray's service is far slower and cumbersome, to make things worse Sexton has to adhere to an archaic game plan of Kidney's to sit deep and hoof the ball at the opposition back 3 - in reality Sexton's game is best suited to playing flat on the gainline.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

for some reason DK selects Sexton with Conor Murray as his scrumhalf, Murray's service is far slower and cumbersome, to make things worse Sexton has to adhere to an archaic game plan of Kidney's to sit deep and hoof the ball at the opposition back 3 - in reality Sexton's game is best suited to playing flat on the gainline . ......

... and less aggressive defenses. Leinster doesn't do well with aggressive in-your-face club defences like the Ospreys and would nearly always start the more physical and cumbersome Boss against these teams.

Unfortunately all international defences are in-your-face.

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

... and less aggressive defenses. Leinster doesn't do well with aggressive in-your-face club defences like the Ospreys and would nearly always start the more physical and cumbersome Boss against these teams.

Unfortunately all international defences are in-your-face.

really? so all outhalfs internationally sit deep and hoof the ball under instruction from their coaches?

I think if you have watched much Leinster rugby in the last 3 seasons they are quite adept at unlocking most defences with their outhalf playing flat.

I think you'll find Boss generally starts away from home and in other games when the plan is to grind down the opposition pack and then unleash the speed of Reddan and Cronin...once again you will find this has been very succesful for the reigning two time Heiniken Cup champions.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Unfortunately all international defences are in-your-face.

Except Ireland, who play a passive defence against a massive side like Wales or the first test against NZ. Good man Kidney!

jamiedav2011

Plus we've the ball carriers like Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Healy, Best (now Strauss) to break down a flat defence, but we seem not to use them well at all from 2-3 out or from deep, instead preferring the likes of POC taking slow ball close in.

Kidney's gameplan has a huge amount to answer for in the past 2-3 years.

OldRio

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

touchy! well how come most people outside ireland dont rate him as highly as those living inside the isle?

How did you come up with this ?
Did you ask them ?

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Here is a SH blog (The Rugby Site) that discusses all the Lions flyhalf options.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/257-lions-watch-by-paul-rees

Sigh.

It might be an SH site but Paul Rees is a writer for the Guardian and is from Wales, afaik.

.ak

In fairness, Sexton has never been anything but a decent fly half at international level.. However, I'd put that totally down the game plan Ireland play.

In Joe Schmidt's first season at Leinster there was an interview with LTV with Sexton. I remember it clearly because I've never seen a player so enamored with a coach when asked about Joe, one of the things he said was that Joe encouraged him to play the way he wanted to, he had free reigns with the backline and ran the game he saw fit, with Joe aiding him as he saw fit. Sexton was close to hinting that this was a totally new experience, something he never experienced at Ireland or probably even under Cheika.

Joe mirrored this in a later interview, saying that Sexton's natural abilities needed to be let shine rather than trying to implement a game he couldn't.

For me, that's the sign of a great coach, someone who encourages a player to play to their natural ability rather than trying to mould them into something they are not.

Currently, Sexton plays a game for Ireland that he cannot play to the best of his ability. The prospect of him playing for the Lions under Gatland and Edwards is something to relish.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

really? so all outhalfs internationally sit deep and hoof the ball under instruction from their coaches?

Depends on the size & physicality of their pack (& their backs as well with regard to Wales').

I think if you have watched much Leinster rugby in the last 3 seasons they are quite adept at unlocking most defences with their outhalf playing flat.

I have been watching Leinster and I've noticed that they have great difficulty unlocking the defence of teams like the Ospreys & Clermont (even Munster up to the recent game).

I think you'll find Boss generally starts away from home and in other games when the plan is to grind down the opposition pack and then unleash the speed of Reddan and Cronin...once again you will find this has been very succesful for the reigning two time Heiniken Cup champions.

I think I've already made that comment about Boss generally starting away from home and against teams with aggressive defences and very physical packs. And Leinster have won 3 Hcups, not 2!

Quote from Jean de Villiers about the last game (Sexton & Reddan were starters and reddan threw the intercept pass).

There was no question of who was the better side a year later, in the opening Test match at the Aviva, when a Morne Steyn-inspired South Africa streaked into a 23-9 lead before a late Irish rally proved rousing but, ultimately, futile. "We scored one intercept try (through Juan Smith) in 2010 and that sort of swung the game in our favour," de Villiers admitted.

English Lurker

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

touchy! well how come most people outside ireland dont rate him as highly as those living inside the isle? they just wrong or is becasue he hasnt actually ever put in too many brilliant displays for ireland?
I want sexton to be good-i think he has all the skills-but yes he does need to start displaying it .
who are you?his brother?

If this is true, then clearly a great many people living inside Ireland reckon that Sexton walks on water and poops five bob notes, as he's very well thought of in England.

It's fair to say his form for Ireland hasn't always matched his form for Leinster - he's had some great games in green though - but he's still quite clearly the best fly-half this side of the channel, if not the equator. The argument over Lions fly-half right now should read "Is anyone likely to improve drastically in the next x months" and "Who's the sub fly-half then".

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Sigh.

It might be an SH site but Paul Rees is a writer for the Guardian and is from Wales, afaik.

Yes he is Welsh. Wrote Neil Jenkins biography - "Life of a 10."

Its a SH website that influences SH opinion and in fairness it seems to be fairly impartial (and equally critical of any of the Welsh players).

jm08

English Lurker wrote: »

If this is true, then clearly a great many people living inside Ireland reckon that Sexton walks on water and poops five bob notes, as he's very well thought of in England.

It's fair to say his form for Ireland hasn't always matched his form for Leinster - he's had some great games in green though - but he's still quite clearly the best fly-half this side of the channel, if not the equator. The argument over Lions fly-half right now should read "Is anyone likely to improve drastically in the next x months" and "Who's the sub fly-half then".

Wayne Smith's European flyhalfs rankings during the 6Ns.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/121-trinh-duc-is-number-one-in-the-top-ten-chart-by-wayne-smith

(from another blog, he thinks that George Ford is a great talent).

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

I have been watching Leinster and I've noticed that they have great difficulty unlocking the defence of teams like the Ospreys & Clermont (even Munster up to the recent game).

Ospreys and Clermont are 2 great teams in Europe at the moment. I dont think there is any team that wont struggle to unlock these defences

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

Wayne Smith's European flyhalfs rankings during the 6Ns.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/121-trinh-duc-is-number-one-in-the-top-ten-chart-by-wayne-smith

(from another blog, he thinks that George Ford is a great talent).

if you've read the piece on Sexton, Smith is clearly criticising the Irish tactics and not Sexton.

Anyway i'm not going to get into any more debate on this as its going no where.

English Lurker

jm08 wrote: »

Wayne Smith's European flyhalfs rankings during the 6Ns.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/121-trinh-duc-is-number-one-in-the-top-ten-chart-by-wayne-smith

(from another blog, he thinks that George Ford is a great talent).

I don't think that a single man, no matter how knowledgeable he is, commenting on a single game nine months ago can be in any way taken as a definitive rating of who's better.

As for Ford, anyone who can see lightening and hear thunder know's he's a ridiculously talented youngster, and they also know he's a fairly dramatic coming of age away from genuine consideration for a Lions tour.

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he is Welsh. Wrote Neil Jenkins biography - "Life of a 10."

You're some man for the Google alright.

jm08 wrote: »

Its a SH website that influences SH opinion and in fairness it seems to be fairly impartial (and equally critical of any of the Welsh players).

a) what is your evidence for this?
b) how is SH opinion remotely relevant to selection of the Lions?

Don't bother answering either of the above, btw.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

if you've read the piece on Sexton, Smith is clearly criticising the Irish tactics and not Sexton.

Anyway i'm not going to get into any more debate on this as its going no where.

He did a summary at the end of the 6Ns where each of the 6Ns countries are. He wasn't critical of Ireland's tactics. Basically he said that Ireland will be going nowhere without BOD & POC.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/177-why-france-have-become-so-dull-by-wayne-smith

Ireland

Declan Kidney had been able to transfer the drive and passion of Leinster, Munster and even Ulster into the national team. He coached Munster with a passion, but the national team is deteriorating. Players are ageing and Kidney is struggling to find the replacements. Ireland finished where they deserved to. Yes, they were without O’Driscoll throughout and O’Connell for the latter part of the Six Nations, but those two cannot be so far off retirement. What then?
Wales

Warren Gatland has a clear selection strategy based on size and speed. It is curious that several of these players have come through an unsuccessful under-20 team, but Gatland is obviously picking out the right ones. North, Cuthbert, Priestland, Davies and Halfpenny are going to be around for years. They are big players, physically and athletically. Now they need to start beating southern hemisphere sides on a regular basis.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Wayne Smith's European flyhalfs rankings during the 6Ns.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/121-trinh-duc-is-number-one-in-the-top-ten-chart-by-wayne-smith

(from another blog, he thinks that George Ford is a great talent).

That's a blog based on the opening game of the 6 Nations last year. A game where we were awful. Its not the least bit surprising he was disappointed with Sexton. He seems a lot more disappointed with the coaching staff to be honest.

jm08

English Lurker wrote: »

I don't think that a single man, no matter how knowledgeable he is, commenting on a single game nine months ago can be in any way taken as a definitive rating of who's better.

As for Ford, anyone who can see lightening and hear thunder know's he's a ridiculously talented youngster, and they also know he's a fairly dramatic coming of age away from genuine consideration for a Lions tour.

Wayne Smith was the All Blacks backs coach for the last 8-10 years so would do a lot of analysis work on these guys and would be informed by that analysis. For instance he was able to pick out imrovements in Trinh-Duc's game. He obviously watches a bit of rugby anyway if he can proclaim George Ford as a great talent and was able to assess Charlie Hodgson.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

You're some man for the Google alright.

a) what is your evidence for this?
b) how is SH opinion remotely relevant to selection of the Lions?

a) Writers are Graham Henry, Wayne Smyth, Dan Carter, Richie McCaw etc. etc.

b) People were wondering how Sexton was rated outside of Ireland.

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

b) People were wondering how Sexton was rated outside of Ireland.

Jonathan Sexton is a good footballer ... He is playing winning rugby at provincial level, he is good under pressure, he is brave and has the running potential.

Fairly highly it seems.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

Fairly highly at provincial level it seems.

Fixed that for you.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Fixed that for you.

Smith suggests that the tactics Ireland are using at international level are "baffling", and aren't getting the best out of Sexton. Surely even you can see that??

OldRio

No doubt the goal posts will be moved again.
Whats the point.
Whereabouts is that ignore button?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Smith suggests that the tactics Ireland are using at international level are "baffling", and aren't getting the best out of Sexton. Surely even you can see that??

He also says he has no idea why he didn't run against Wales.

Can you explain why any coach would order anyone not to make breaks/hit the line which is what is baffling Smith (who clearly rates Kidney as a coach going on the summary at the end - Ireland are finished without similar like-for-like replacements to BOD & POC).

He is critical of ROG's lack of a breaking/defence game - but he rates him as an attacker ("... but it is not always easy when O’Gara starts to push your defence around the field").

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

He is critical of ROG's lack of a breaking/defence game - but he rates him as an attacker ("... but it is not always easy when O’Gara starts to push your defence around the field").

All that implies is that he can kick a team around a park.

leftleg

.ak wrote: »

All that implies is that he can kick a team around a park.

yes but it didnt say anything "bad" about ROG. For some that seems to be a good thing.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

All that implies is that he can kick a team around a park.

He praises Trinh-Duc for adding "... the crossfield kick-pass to his game in recent months and it makes him very difficult to defend against."

He then goes onto praise him for ... "Trinh-Duc set up another try against Italy with a chip over the defence. He is becoming a complete footballer."

Both those attributes are a strong part of O'Gara's game.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

He praises Trinh-Duc for adding "... the crossfield kick-pass to his game in recent months and it makes him very difficult to defend against."

He then goes onto praise him for ... "Trinh-Duc set up another try against Italy with a chip over the defence. He is becoming a complete footballer."

Both those attributes are a strong part of O'Gara's game.[/QUOTE]


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