British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

WorldRugby99

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Cian Healy is a brilliant scrummager. And even if he wasn't the best it's not like he'll be up against much with the Australian front row

dont contradict yourself will you? i did say it will depend on what gatland wants.if he wants someone very mobile with great work rate who gets around-its healy. But if gatland wants the scrum to be most destructive he may well look elsewhere. none of us know what gatland is thinking so who knows?

WorldRugby99

Deano7788 wrote: »

You're not seriously using the England game against him, are you?

What i asked was,against the perceived better scrum teams,which has he dominated agaisnt this year at scrum time? let me know.

And agsint england,scrum was starting to go backwards before ross went off if you watch game again.

WorldRugby99

how defensive are people of cian healy? is there just leinster areselickers on this site?if he was that good why arent all these pundits naming him then?

.ak

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

how defensive are people of cian healy? is there just leinster areselickers on this site?if he was that good why arent all these pundits naming him then?

Bad troll is bad troll.

Please do not respond to this.

Deano7788

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

What i asked was,against the perceived better scrum teams,which has he dominated agaisnt this year at scrum time? let me know.

And agsint england,scrum was starting to go backwards before ross went off if you watch game again.

Because Ross got injured in like the 1st scrum.

Also, Australia have a poor scrum. I'd much rather a slightly weaker (debatable) but still dominant and destructive scrum in combinatation with Healy's loose play

Higher

Actually a lot of pundits have beat Healy into their test team......

WorldRugby99

Look I have said healy has had a good year and at scrum time he has improved.But to me,talk of being best in world is rather premature and most of that talk is coming frankly from those inside leinster. He has not often or at all against the best teams either for leinster or ireland destroyed them. I await examples from 2012 when healy has really done a job at scrum time against top notch teams. Outside the scrum hes been great,mobile,great work rate but I personally cant call anyone the worlds best unless they superb in every aspect.
people can disagree and thats their right but its not trolling to not get carried away with fan nonsense.Look at welsh fans who got so carried away labelling their team all 'world class' after some narrow victories against second rate six nations sides.
Please dont label those who dont go along with the fan worship 'trolls'. Argue your case,provide firm examples.You say hes best in world-show games when hes destroyed english,french,safrican,nzealand or ulster,clermont,toulouse scrum etc you cant be best loose in world unless you destructive scrummager.

Deano7788

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

Look I have said healy has had a good year and at scrum time he has improved.But to me,talk of being best in world is rather premature and most of that talk is coming frankly from those inside leinster. He has not often or at all against the best teams either for leinster or ireland destroyed them. I await examples from 2012 when healy has really done a job at scrum time against top notch teams. Outside the scrum hes been great,mobile,great work rate but I personally cant call anyone the worlds best unless they superb in every aspect.
people can disagree and thats their right but its not trolling to not get carried away with fan nonsense.Look at welsh fans who got so carried away labelling their team all 'world class' after some narrow victories against second rate six nations sides.
Please dont label those who dont go along with the fan worship 'trolls'. Argue your case,provide firm examples.You say hes best in world-show games when hes destroyed english,french,safrican,nzealand or ulster,clermont,toulouse scrum etc you cant be best loose in world unless you destructive scrummager.

Who do you think's the world's best loosehead so?

Also, myself and Fishooks are actually Munster fans

English Lurker

I think my name should indicate I've no particular bias towards Cian Healy and I rate him highly. Maybe not as highly as some opinions I've just read but still high enough that I've no problem with him being considered the front-runner for the Lions, particularly when Jenkins is struggling at Toulon and Corbisiero is injury-prone. Although equally, I feel that to suggest he's absolutely nailed on and suggesting any other loosehead is wrong, is, well, wrong. A lot of looseheads make big contributions in the loose, although few as big as Healy's, and I've yet to see him be the destructive element in a scrum in a big game against noted quality opposition (well, save for us two years back). We're not short of quality in this position, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

And the idea that to be the best loosehead in the world you have to be destructive at the scrum is absolute nonsense. Many people said Gethin Jenkins was the best a year or so again, he's no great destructive scrummager. People say it about Tony Woodcock, very good scrummager but rarely wrecks the opposition. If you're rarely beaten and have a great influence in the loose - like Healy - that is a valid claim.

WorldRugby99

english lurker-value your input.But surely primary objective of a prop is at scrum time? scrum time wins/loses you penalties,provides a good platform and base from which you can attack,disrupts the opps ability to do so.So for me scrum time will always be the primary decision before you start talking about what happens around the park.Healy most of the time holds his own but often either for leinster as seen in recent weeks or for ireland when against the better teams,you really couldnt argue that healy adds much at scrum time. therefore the argument seems to be as with gethin jenkins,its all about what they do around the park,which is fair enough if thats your argument. Its a bit like this argument with brian o driscoll-lost his pace and attacking element but still offers a lot round the park and his turnovers etc.For me thats not enough-i prefer players who are outstanding at the basics of their position.Hence a hooker who is great at throwing in, a scrumhalf with a very quick excellent pass (i.e not mike phillips!).So for me a prop is there to be brilliant scrummager,not some extra back row,although if they are then thats a bonus! But we all differ obviously!

Ed Winchester

You're definitely trolling when you suggest Brian O'Driscoll doesn't do enough for you.

jamiedav2011

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

english lurker-value your input.But surely primary objective of a prop is at scrum time? scrum time wins/loses you penalties,provides a good platform and base from which you can attack,disrupts the opps ability to do so.So for me scrum time will always be the primary decision before you start talking about what happens around the park.Healy most of the time holds his own but often either for leinster as seen in recent weeks or for ireland when against the better teams,you really couldnt argue that healy adds much at scrum time. therefore the argument seems to be as with gethin jenkins,its all about what they do around the park,which is fair enough if thats your argument. Its a bit like this argument with brian o driscoll-lost his pace and attacking element but still offers a lot round the park and his turnovers etc.For me thats not enough-i prefer players who are outstanding at the basics of their position.Hence a hooker who is great at throwing in, a scrumhalf with a very quick excellent pass (i.e not mike phillips!).So for me a prop is there to be brilliant scrummager,not some extra back row,although if they are then thats a bonus! But we all differ obviously!

Healy has found it difficult going in past two games.
Prior to that though, he's without question been the best LH in the world. Incredible with ball in hand, and his scrummaging is also very good. Not at the level of a Sheridan perhaps, but as mentioned above, the Aus scrum isn't very fearsome.

If you're going to pick examples of games he's been poor at scrum time, which happens to every prop, take a look at Healy's performance in Clermont, in Llanelli, against Ulster last year, in Clermont last year.

Me thinks you may be trollin' though.

WorldRugby99

Ed Winchester wrote: »

You're definitely trolling when you suggest Brian O'Driscoll doesn't do enough for you.

thats not what i said is it so why say so? i said he does work hard all over pitch,wins turnovers etc but for me now,as he has lost that yard of pace and attacking element ,he isnt the best option at 13 for the lions and obviosuly isnt the best option going forward with 2015 in mind for ireland. O driscoll is still a good player but hes no longer exceptional.
i think a few on here spend too much time reading rubbish like the irish times,since many on here have such an insular and one sided view of the irish team and the irish players.
2012 has been a terrible year for the ireland team-lets not forget that.2 wins in six nations v the worse teams,a 3-0 defeat to kiwis with 2 wallopings,and a home loss to a limited springbok side missing half their team.
onegood home win over an inconsistent side not ranked as a top nation(argentina)is no reason too be optimistic at this stage.

jamiedav2011

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

Its a bit like this argument with brian o driscoll-lost his pace and attacking element but still offers a lot round the park and his turnovers etc.For me thats not enough-i prefer players who are outstanding at the basics of their position.

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

thats not what i said is it so why say so?

I don't think you need to tell most on here that 2012 hasn't been a good year for Irish international rugby! Fortunately that has a limited amount to do with our players though, and I don't see what that has to do with anything?

WorldRugby99

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Healy has found it difficult going in past two games.
Prior to that though, he's without question been the best LH in the world. Incredible with ball in hand, and his scrummaging is also very good. Not at the level of a Sheridan perhaps, but as mentioned above, the Aus scrum isn't very fearsome.

If you're going to pick examples of games he's been poor at scrum time, which happens to every prop, take a look at Healy's performance in Clermont, in Llanelli, against Ulster last year, in Clermont last year.

Me thinks you may be trollin' though.

why is it 'trolling' to have an alternative view? is that not allowed on here? wheres this settled consensus that healy is the worlds best? who reached this?the fans on here?i think you may be the troll. i try to look at things without a national bias-perhaps some on here should take the blinkers off.Healy is very good,up there in the top 5 in the world ,but does need to improve at scrum time-recently at home to clermont and away to ulster he was awful.

Deano7788

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

thats not what i said is it so why say so? i said he does work hard all over pitch,wins turnovers etc but for me now,as he has lost that yard of pace and attacking element ,he isnt the best option at 13 for the lions and obviosuly isnt the best option going forward with 2015 in mind for ireland. O driscoll is still a good player but hes no longer exceptional.
i think a few on here spend too much time reading rubbish like the irish times,since many on here have such an insular and one sided view of the irish team and the irish players.
2012 has been a terrible year for the ireland team-lets not forget that.2 wins in six nations v the worse teams,a 3-0 defeat to kiwis with 2 wallopings,and a home loss to a limited springbok side missing half their team.
onegood home win over an inconsistent side not ranked as a top nation(argentina)is no reason too be optimistic at this stage.

Most of the posters here spend half their time complaining about the rubbish in the times and independent (for proof search for Conor George) so don't know where you're getting that idea.

And yes, it's been a poor year for the Ireland team but a large part of that is down to outdated tactics. Look at the form of these same players for their provinces. It's unrecognisable. There was an all Irish, and the last 2 European players of the year have been Irish, so we do have quality players.

And since when were Argentina not ranked as a top side?

jamiedav2011

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

why is it 'trolling' to have an alternative view? is that not allowed on here? wheres this settled consensus that healy is the worlds best? who reached this?the fans on here?i think you may be the troll. i try to look at things without a national bias-perhaps some on here should take the blinkers off.Healy is very good,up there in the top 5 in the world ,but does need to improve at scrum time-recently at home to clermont and away to ulster he was awful.

You're just repeating the same points man, and they've been debunked.

If you want to base your Lions LH pick on two games that you've arbitrarily chosen then fine, but don't think that you're going to get much time from many on here because of that.

Healy is an excellent scrummager, as he's shown on numerous occasions in the past year or two, and by far and away the best LH in the loose in the world. He's the perfect choice to play OZ, and just witness what he did to their scrum in the world cup.

You're essentially making up your own argument with your own parameters, based on a pre determined opinion.

WorldRugby99

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I don't think you need to tell most on here that 2012 hasn't been a good year for Irish international rugby! Fortunately that has a limited amount to do with our players though, and I don't see what that has to do with anything?

oh i see its kidneys fault is it?just like it was o sullivans fault before that,and gatlands before that etc etc.always the coach,never the players,they all world class arent they etc etc,bla,bla,bla.
if only we had schmidt that genius,taking us to yet another heineken cup after those victorious games v clermont. oh sorry i forgot.leinster were taken apart all over pitch in last game.and just lost to ulster.maybe schmidt isnt right man now,maybe anscombe,he will do it,wont he?no.1 here we come.

Tigerandahalf

I would agree that Healy isnt first choice. He is still vulnerable in the scrum against the big teams. It will be interesting to see what approach Gatland takes but I would expect him to take a lot of props to hit the Wallabies where they are weakest. Bringing on another two props at 60 mins to hurt them. Be interesting to see if guys outside national setup will be called up, like Sheridan, Hines etc. Adam Jones if he comes back to form after injury should start at 3. He is very much underrated. He also has good discipline. With Cole also there you have great strength at tight head. Then Ross is not going to let you down. LHs - Sheridan, Jenkins, Corbiseiro and Healy plus James from Wales who can scrum on both sides.
I would also agree re ODriscoll no longer being a threat. Tuilagi looks the favourite but his discipline would be a worry and if ODriscoll has a good 6 nations he could be back in favour.

WorldRugby99

Deano7788 wrote: »

Most of the posters here spend half their time complaining about the rubbish in the times and independent (for proof search for Conor George) so don't know where you're getting that idea.

And yes, it's been a poor year for the Ireland team but a large part of that is down to outdated tactics. Look at the form of these same players for their provinces. It's unrecognisable. There was an all Irish, and the last 2 European players of the year have been Irish, so we do have quality players.

And since when were Argentina not ranked as a top side?

arent argentina 8th in rankings? its not quite the same as having played brilliant rugby,easily winning agaisnt one of the big three is it?
As i have said before I have never been a great fan of the 'regional form shows how good these players are' argument.international rugby is rugbys highest level,the quality,pressure,intensity,media focus is much higher.many sports fans dont even take notice of the club/regional game.And when most of the worlds best players play in the super 15 not the european cup,its best not to get too carried away with what happens in european cup,likewise grandslams are not much of an indicator of a side being equipped to take on the SH big 3 as has been proved in recent years.

English Lurker

WorldRugby, fair enough if you want to concentrate on guys as specialists in one area first and foremost, but a great many people in the world don't - including many high up in rugby, hence people like Mike Phillips For most people, it's enough that someone does that primary job fine, if they are amazing in all other areas.

I do think you undersell Healy as a scrummager though. No, he doesn't destroy people, but he's rarely destroyed. You can pick out a few matches, but no prop (other than Adam Jones) will consistently do the trick. Better scrummagers available to the Lions? I think Corbisiero, I might be biased. Sheridan has awesome power but I'm not sold on his technique - and both men are made of chocolate when it comes to injuries. Healy has the edge on both in the loose, which is no small compliment imo. There might be some overhyping here, but not much, if that. I'd also say that props are very prone to be being judged harshly on what is after all a group performance. Healy was very good last season with Leinster. He's had a not so good season with Leinster this. Difference? Less Mike Ross playing, no Brad Thorn helping to push the scrum. That's not Healy's fault, but those things are going to make a difference. Look at Healy's worse game for Ireland, Tom Court at tighthead. No, I am content that Healy deserves the majority of his praise.

I also think that O'Driscoll is still a very dangerous and class act. No hedging around the rest of the park, he's just still very good. What he's lost in explosiveness - not as much as some reckon - he's gained in cunning. If Tuilagi or Davies beat him to the Lions 13 shirt, they'll have to be very good.

irishbucsfan

I think Corbisiero is the only truly strong scrummager available to the Lions at LH (or even Court!?). He's also a great worker around the park.

If the Lions want to really attack the scrums then I would have no problem with him starting with Healy on the bench to offer something different in the 2nd half.

I think Jenkins is just as good as Healy (when he's actually playing, which is rare). However I think his work around the field is far more evident in defense, I think if we were touring South Africa or New Zealand he'd be a better shout than against a team like Australia.

I just don't rate Sheridan very much at all tbh. Not sure who else there is after that.

rchendz92

Healy has better aspects to his game than his scrummaging, but it's not exactly a weakness. Especially vs the Ozzies. I'd be cool with him as an impact bench player, but he'd be a fine choice to start. I think its between him and Corbisiero...Jenkins is very overrated.

Podge_irl

Unless Jenkins can actually start getting his game I don't see how he can be in line for anything. I wouldn't object to Corbisiero but the much vaunted English front row didn't do much against Australia in the AIs.

thomond2006

One week Jenkins is starting for Toulon and then the following week he is out of the 23, it's pretty strange. Cardiff did make an approach to bring him home in the summer but Toulon weren't having any of it.

I'm with podge here, if he doesn't get more gametime he won't be in contention.

GerM

thomond2006 wrote: »

One week Jenkins is starting for Toulon and then the following week he is out of the 23, it's pretty strange. Cardiff did make an approach to bring him home in the summer but Toulon weren't having any of it.

Not even. He has started one game from thirteen in the T14 and twice in European action. The guy simply isn't in consideration for the first team one would have to think. He has lost his Welsh spot as a result. Unless there's a complete turnaround in the second half of the season, Gethin Jenkins won't even be in contention for a spot on the plane let alone the side.

thomond2006

GerM wrote: »

Not even. He has started one game from thirteen in the T14 and twice in European action. The guy simply isn't in consideration for the first team one would have to think. He has lost his Welsh spot as a result. Unless there's a complete turnaround in the second half of the season, Gethin Jenkins won't even be in contention for a spot on the plane let alone the side.

I was refering to the last two weeks, he started versus Sale and then didn't make the 23 against Agen. Sorry I should have made that clear.

It's quite a fall from grace isn't it? Last year he would be one of the first names on the Welsh teamsheet and was one of the better performers on the 2009 Lions Tour, his tackle on Habana in the first test comes to mind.

English Lurker

Podge_irl wrote: »

Unless Jenkins can actually start getting his game I don't see how he can be in line for anything. I wouldn't object to Corbisiero but the much vaunted English front row didn't do much against Australia in the AIs.

No small part due to Corbs missing that game.

Instead we had Marler, who's definitely a weaker scrummager, who then proceeded to tear a ligament and refused to come off for half the game, with predictable results. Not something I'd particularly blame anyone for, and certainly not Corbisiero.

edit: p.s. It's amazing just how quickly Jenkins has gone downhill and whoever's talking about looking at Hines for the Lions is talking my sort of language.

Podge_irl

Ah, apologies. I forgot he missed that game. Again I wouldn't object to him starting and Healy coming off the bench for impact. Jenkins is a non runner at the moment though.

danthefan

Imo Corbisiero is in pole position and to be fair he's a quality player. Lot of rugby to be played.

Anyone picking Jenkins needs their opinion disregarded immediately. The last time I really saw him play was the QF last season and the Cardiff scrum got absolutely destroyed.