British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Fishooks13

Nervous Nigel wrote: »

What exactly has all of this sh1te got to do with the Lions?

Nothing really

But seeing as Jmo8 is using nothing but tackling stats to back up his absurd claim that Heaslip doesn't put in the effort for Ireland that he did for the Lions it doesn't add up that Heaslip was only 5th in the overall tackling stakes for the Lion's test series in SA (he clocked in at 4th for Ireland this year)

Either it doesn't add up. Or Heaslip actually tries harder for Ireland than he did The Lions

jm08

Nervous Nigel wrote: »

What exactly has all of this sh1te got to do with the Lions?

It all started because some people can't understand why Keith Wood & others don't rate Heaslip (and don't pick him for the Lions).

Some posters don't get why he isn't rated and don't understand why some people would prefer SOB at 8. It doesn't help when some of Heislip's fan club make claims that he is Ireland's top tackler when he isn't (and that is why I looked at his tackling stats to back-up my opinion that he isn't).

Welcome to boards !

accidentprone1

I could be wrong here, but aren't tackle stats a shoddy way to judge someone's work rate? Wouldn't it simply depend on the number of people who decide to run down his channel during a game?

GerM

If people want to look at stats for international rugby, I'd advise using the Sydney Morning Herald online or, if possible Opta. Scrum.com is very patchy in their stats and gives a very black and white view of the game. It only credits one player with a tackle and gives no indication of the players performance at the ruck. SMH credits each player with the tackle and also highlights the first player into each ruck giving a fuller picture of how much work a player gets through.

GerM

accidentprone1 wrote: »

I could be wrong here, but aren't tackle stats a shoddy way to judge someone's work rate? Wouldn't it simply depend on the number of people who decide to run down his channel during a game?

Absolutely. If you monitor tackling stats, you'll see that back three players miss the highest percentage of tackles. That's simply because when they're faced with making a tackle it's in the wider channels when the defence is already stretched and people are moving at pace in lots of space. Front five players can make a high number of tackles due to shutting the door in the opposition face around the ruck i.e. tackles they should be making every time.

Tackle counts will always be higher depending on how a player is utilised in a game. The inside centre channel will always have a significant amount of traffic coming down it. Therefore you'll see Gordon D'Arcy with a high tackle count regularly.

Looking at tackles in isolation is a bit of a waste of time. If you want to see a player's work rate, you have to watch the game and the player and then it becomes apparent which players have a phenomenal work rate of which Ireland have a few.

jm08

accidentprone1 wrote: »

I could be wrong here, but aren't tackle stats a shoddy way to judge someone's work rate? Wouldn't it simply depend on the number of people who decide to run down his channel during a game?

I wouldn't have brought it up, but the claim was made that he is one of Ireland's top tacklers.

Pretty strange that so many would decide to run down Ferris & SOB's channels though. Its not as if SOB would be covering Sexton's channel either.

durkadurka

He is one of our top tacklers. Your own stats prove that.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

I wouldn't have brought it up, but the claim was made that he is one of Ireland's top tacklers.

Pretty strange that so many would decide to run down Ferris & SOB's channels though. Its not as if SOB would be covering Sexton's channel either.

Which he clearly is.

What else does Heaslip do for Leinster and the Lions that shows he doesn't put in the same effort as you claim?

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Which he clearly is.

What else does Heaslip do for Leinster and the Lions that shows he doesn't put in the same effort as you claim?

opps - should have said top tackler! Here is what you posted. If you had said one of our top tacklers I wouldn't have looked it up.

Originally Posted by Fishooks13
Such a load of crap.

"he looks as if he doesn't put in any effort for Ireland"? Despite the fact that's he's regularly our top tackler.

Nervous Nigel

Surely tackling stats in isolation are pretty meaningless?

The opposition could target a soft tackler and run at him all day making his stats really good (i.e. he makes tackles, but they're poor ones that maintain the opposition's forward momentum).

I'm not saying that anyone in particular is a bad tackler...just that hanging one's hat on isolated stats is bonkers.

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Which he clearly is.

What else does Heaslip do for Leinster and the Lions that shows he doesn't put in the same effort as you claim?

opps - should have said top tackler! Here is what you posted. If you had said one of our top tacklers I wouldn't have looked it up.

Originally Posted by Fishooks13
Such a load of crap.

"he looks as if he doesn't put in any effort for Ireland"? Despite the fact that's he's regularly our top tackler.

edit: I think his discipline can be poor as well.

Deano7788

This is just getting pedantic.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

opps - should have said top tackler! Here is what you posted. If you had said one of our top tacklers I wouldn't have looked it up.

I've already explained that I thought I saw a stat before saying he was our top tackler during last years six nations. Think it could have been turnovers though.

But anyway that's all irrelevant because the facts you poster show he's one of our top tacklers and you're the one claiming he doesn't put in the effort for Ireland.

What is that based on?

durkadurka

So all you have is " best" vs " one of the best".

What The?

Why are people so obsessed with why someone doesn't like or rate heaslip? Some people are just dislikeable to others. Clearly heaslip is just dislikeable to some people, accept it. ROG is dislikeable to others, accept it. Trimble is dislikeable to others, accept it. And so on…

Nervous Nigel

Having top class finishers in Australia will be vital.

Ugo Monye's performance in the 1st Test in Durban was shocking. He had 2 or 3 chances that a top winger should finish and he fluffed each one.

When I see nonsense like Chris Ashton's swan dives and one handed carries I shudder to think of what might happen if/when karma catches up with him and God forbid it's in Brisbane/Melbourne/Sydney.

You'd berate an Under 13 for doing some of the stuff that the likes of Monye and Ashton do.

Fishooks13

What The? wrote: »

Why are people so obsessed with why someone doesn't like or rate heaslip? Some people are just dislikeable to others. Clearly heaslip is just dislikeable to some people, accept it. ROG is dislikeable to others, accept it. Trimble is dislikeable to others, accept it. And so on…

Well it's the fact that jmo8 is claiming that Heaslip doesn't put in much effort when playing with Ireland that grinds my gears. And I know people think this kills the thread, but the sad fact is many people share this odd view that Jamie Heaslip is some sort of glorified winger afraid of hard graft.

He also had a shot at him for saying the Lions tour was the highlight of his career for some reason

Kiwi_knock

Nervous Nigel wrote: »

Having top class finishers in Australia will be vital.

Ugo Monye's performance in the 1st Test in Durban was shocking. He had 2 or 3 chances that a top winger should finish and he fluffed each one.

When I see nonsense like Chris Ashton's swan dives and one handed carries I shudder to think of what might happen if/when karma catches up with him and God forbid it's in Brisbane/Melbourne/Sydney.

You'd berate an Under 13 for doing some of the stuff that the likes of Monye and Ashton do.

Ashton is a good finisher though, he runs smart lines. Seems always to be on the shoulder of an attacker, always sniffs a chance. Knows where the space is. I certainly would bring him on the tour, and definitely has a chance at starting.

On the Heaslip issue, he is a near certain to tour. Only really Faletau to challenge him. No outstanding challenger in England (Morgan or Waldrom are not dynamic enough, and Easter will not get international game time) or in Scotland.

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Well it's the fact that jmo8 is claiming that Heaslip doesn't put in much effort when playing with Ireland that grinds my gears.

He also had a shot at him for saying the Lions tour was the highlight of his career for some reason

I made an effort to explain why some people don't rate Heaslip rather than just it being described as nothing other than an irrational 'hate' of him.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

I made an effort to explain why some people don't rate Heaslip rather than just it being described as nothing other than an irrational 'hate' of him.

A pretty poor effort. All you did was claim he doesn't put enough effort in for Ireland and posted stats showing he's one of our highest tacklers

Nervous Nigel

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Ashton is a good finisher though, he runs smart lines. Seems always to be on the shoulder of an attacker, always sniffs a chance. Knows where the space is. I certainly would bring him on the tour, and definitely has a chance

I'd bring him too...but I'd make it clear to him that he has to cut out the messing (e.g. swan dives, one handed carries, carrying the ball on the wrong side, etc).

Some day, and if karma's got anything to do with it on the biggest stage, that guy's f..king around will catch up with him.

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

A pretty poor effort. All you did was claim he doesn't put enough effort in for Ireland and posted stats showing he's one of our highest tacklers

He is one of Ireland's top tackler this season because POC, Ferris & SOB have missed most of it. His showing in NZ in one game in a previous season was one missed tackle and a Red Card and I presume you noticed the Ireland captain made 2 tackles in our loss against South Africa recently.

Bearing in mind what was discussed in Enfield prior to Ireland winning the Grand Slam, I doubt if Heaslip endeared himself to the rest of the Ireland squad when he came out with the line he would prefer to be playing rugby with the Lions. (By the way, this was said in an interview when Ireland was on their way to the World Cup).

Podge_irl

Prefer to be playing rugby with the lions. Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

Only a completely wilful misunderstanding of what he said would lead to that conclusion. It is beyond idiotic.

Presumably BOD saying he'd like to go on a winning lions tour before he retires is sacrilege too. Surely the GS should be enough for the greedy bastard.

durkadurka

jm08 wrote: »

He is one of Ireland's top tackler this season because POC, Ferris & SOB have missed most of it. His showing in NZ in one game in a previous season was one missed tackle and a Red Card and I presume you noticed the Ireland captain made 2 tackles in our loss against South Africa recently.

Bearing in mind what was discussed in Enfield prior to Ireland winning the Grand Slam, I doubt if Heaslip endeared himself to the rest of the Ireland squad when he came out with the line he would prefer to be playing rugby with the Lions. (By the way, this was said in an interview when Ireland was on their way to the World Cup).

So you give up on the tackling and move onto discipline.
I'm joining the massed ranks of people who no longer respond to you.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

Bearing in mind what was discussed in Enfield prior to Ireland winning the Grand Slam, I doubt if Heaslip endeared himself to the rest of the Ireland squad when he came out with the line he would prefer to be playing rugby with the Lions. (By the way, this was said in an interview when Ireland was on their way to the World Cup).

Ya, and now I'm out...................

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

Prefer to be playing rugby with the lions. Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

Only a completely wilful misunderstanding of what he said would lead to that conclusion. It is beyond idiotic.

Presumably BOD saying he'd like to go on a winning lions tour before he retires is sacrilege too. Surely the GS should be enough for the greedy bastard.

No he didn't say he'd prefer to be playing rugby with the Lions - he said the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions - not winning two heineken cups with all his buddies at Leinster or being on the team that won Ireland's 2nd GS Slam (the first one in 1948)!

Brian O'Driscoll (a former Lions Captain) has said the highlight of his career was winning the Grand Slam.

jm08

durkadurka wrote: »

So you give up on the tackling and move onto discipline.
I'm joining the massed ranks of people who no longer respond to you.

His (lack) of tackling isn't a huge bone of contention - its a false claim to why he should be rated though.

danthefan

Hagz wrote: »

Such a ridiculous turn this thread has taken.

I've read your post and there's absolutely nothing unreasonable in it but you've just given him/her/it a whole load of new material to argue with. Cut off the oxygen, ignore the troll/worst poster on any forum in history, and lets all move on.

danthefan

Hagz wrote: »

I was, but this thread seems to drawing all the activity, thus the other threads are pretty lifeless and I got sucked in. You think I should delete it?

I'm not going to tell you to delete your posts, as it is the thread is going nowhere, if you feel like smashing your head off a concrete wall...

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

Such a ridiculous turn this thread has taken. So jm08 is explaining some fan's dislike towards Heaslip by saying
1. He appears to display a lack of effort for Ireland
2. He said his career highlight was playing for Ireland

Well, in terms of the 2nd point, it means nothing. Players do countless interviews a year.
Here's a quote from Heaslip that suggests the HC in 2009 was the highlight of his career.

So he's said the HC was his career highlight, he's said the Lions was his career highlight, and jm08, I'm betting if you asked him whether the Grandslam was his career highlight he would say yes.

Lovell-rugby asked him what his career highlight was and this was his answer

You see what I'm saying? Quotes like that aren't worth reading into, so I don't know why you're doing it other than because it suits your agenda.

Getting back to the 1st point......well he was selected to captain his country. There's no way in hell management would choose a captain who did not give 100% constantly, and they would know about that sort of thing more than you or I.

Those few fans who dislike Heaslip dislike him because of his unique personality. That's the only reason.

I made the point that he seems to put more effort into playing for Leinster than for Ireland. Now you have confirmed that with your quote above - i.e., that the highlight of his year of 2009 was winning the Heineken Cup - the same year he won the Grand Slam. Preferring to play for your province rather than your country was a stick that was used to beat the Munster players with for years (even though they always denied it).

Heaslip was selected as captain because there was litterly no one else there. It will be interesting to see if he is preferred over Best or POC when they are both available.

By the way, most people wouldn't have a clue as to what his personality is like to either like or dislike him.