British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

bilston

thomond2006 wrote: »

Only 2 English players started the second test in 2009, Shaw and Croft. Shaw turned out to be an inspired selection.

That 2nd test was one of the greatest test matches of recent years. Shaw was outstanding, Kearney imperious and BOD was a real leader with total disregard for his own body.

totallegend

bilston wrote: »

He's certainly the favourite (Sexton that is not ROG!) but he really needs to stamp his authority on the Irish team this season.

Yes, but he needs to be allowed to do so. That means 80-minute games, that means none of this "moving Sexton to 12 with ROG at 10" bull**** and that means giving him licence to play with the sort of freedom he does at Leinster.

bilston wrote: »

I expect Priestland will be proven to be a one season wonder albeit remaining a decent option and Farrell is solid but I'm not sure he fits in with Gatland's thinking. I'd be more interested in the progress of George Ford this season but I expect the Lions will come a year too soon for him, plus he has Flood ahead of him at Leicester. Duncan Weir isn't good enough and while I've always rated Rhuaridh Jackson very highly he hasn't quite lived up to expectations. It's Sexton's to lose but he isn't a certainty.

Agree with all that. The jersey is Sexton's to lose but Gatland obviously rates Priestland very highly.

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

Remember the Tom Croft media campaign to get him on tour and then play him! Thats why there was no 'beef' in the first Test.

I agree there is a love in for Croft from the English media...but...he is actually a very good player. He's just not as good as Ferris or Lydiate at 6 and he isn't as good as the likes of Gray or O'Connell in the second row.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

Babas is the side that have a tradition of an uncapped player. Quinlan was never there to be an enforcer and that was never his game. He was named because he's an absolutely brilliant tourist and would have had a huge impact off the pitch. He was someone that could show great skills and be very niggly, getting under the oppositions skin but he was never an enforcer which is highlighted by the fact that it was Tom Croft who was brought in as his direct replacement. Worsley was the flanker that was the enforcer (or closest thing to it at the time) and he was brilliant when the coaching staff finally woke up and selected him.

I don't know what they call it, but the Lions have a tradition of bringing one relatively inexperienced international on tour. ROG was that player in Australia, I think Ollie Smith was the player in NZ and Earls was that player in SA. They are not expected to be Test starters.

Maybe Enforcer was the wrong word to use for Quinlan, but my understanding was that he was picked because of his ability to niggle and he would be a good person to have with the dirt trackers.

Croft was brought in not because he was a like-for-like replacement for Quinlan, but because Sky/the British media wanted him on tour.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

That 2nd test was one of the greatest test matches of recent years. Shaw was outstanding, Kearney imperious and BOD was a real leader with total disregard for his own body.

The Welsh props deserve as much praise as Shaw.

Teferi

bilston wrote: »

He's certainly the favourite (Sexton that is not ROG!) but he really needs to stamp his authority on the Irish team this season.

Sexton hasn't a hope of playing for Ireland like he does for Leinster until Kidney is gone. It really is that simple.

He's clearly world class, I think his club form is enough to get him a jersey and Gatland smart enough to know Kidney is muck.

irishbucsfan

Stuart Barnes was talking about who he thinks will be the Lions back room staff and he straight away mentioned Joe Schmidt, and his reasoning for that was Johnny Sexton. I think most people realise how misspent our resources are and Warren Gatland will be very aware of it. Even if he doesn't hire Schmidt I think Sexton is clearly the most complete 10 in the British Isles... and his performances in the 6 Nations will be pretty irrelevant once he gets down there and starts training with the weapons the Lions will have at their disposal.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

I agree there is a love in for Croft from the English media...but...he is actually a very good player. He's just not as good as Ferris or Lydiate at 6 and he isn't as good as the likes of Gray or O'Connell in the second row.

I agee that Croft is a good player - just not physical enough against a team like SA. He could be a very good option in Aus though.

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

The Welsh props deserve as much praise as Shaw.

Completely agree, the lions fell apart when both props got injured.

It was a great game, would have been a great lions victory had the referee and his touch judge shown a pair and sent of Burger for trying to blind Luke Fitz.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Sexton hasn't a hope of playing for Ireland like he does for Leinster until Kidney is gone. It really is that simple.

He's clearly world class, I think his club form is enough to get him a jersey and Gatland smart enough to know Kidney is muck.

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

Otacon

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

If he does wonder that, I'm sure his brain would quickly tell him that Sexton is the play-maker and is the only one being asked to change the way he plays. Our antiquated game-plan hampers us, primarily at outhalf, as he is asked to kick rather than attack the line.

Its like having a boxer with a devastating right hook, whose coach then straps up his right arm.

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

Kearney and BOD both played better for Leinster. Healy and SOB just do what they do best regardless of who they play for.

The difference here is that they play different positions with different roles. 10 is arguably the most important roles on the pitch so a different style will effect how well a player plays. Different play styles won't effect a position like prop as much.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

When was the last time BOD played better for Ireland than he has done for Leinster? Certainly not on the latest tour, certainly not when he was injured, certainly not during the world cup, certainly not during the 6 Nations previous to that.... what are you talking about?

All the rest, bar Kearney, are forwards and not really relevant to the point.

jm08

Otacon wrote: »

If he does wonder that, I'm sure his brain would quickly tell him that Sexton is the play-maker and is the only one being asked to change the way he plays. Our antiquated game-plan hampers us, primarily at outhalf, as he is asked to kick rather than attack the line.

Its like having a boxer with a devastating right hook, whose coach then straps up his right arm.

Interestingly, New Zealand nearly lost the game when Carter kicked least! TBH, there is little in the difference in the amount of kicking between NZ & Ireland in the summer tests.

Most coaches encourage players to play what is in front of them (Rob Penney is articulating that very well at the moment). Sometimes kicking is the only way to break down a blitz defence - and I see that Doug Howlett has now added it to his list of skills. The thing is to do it intelligently though.

Otacon

jm08 wrote: »

Interestingly, New Zealand nearly lost the game when Carter kicked least! TBH, there is little in the difference in the amount of kicking between NZ & Ireland in the summer tests.

Most coaches encourage players to play what is in front of them (Rob Penney is articulating that very well at the moment). Sometimes kicking is the only way to break down a blitz defence - and I see that Doug Howlett has now added it to his list of skills. The thing is to do it intelligently though.

Or you can design a game-plan around your team's strengths and the opposing team's weaknesses...

It's irrelevant how NZ/Carter play. We have a genuinely great ball-in-hand player, who we are asking to either kick it or pass it in very mundane or predictable backline moves.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Kearney and BOD both played better for Leinster. Healy and SOB just do what they do best regardless of who they play for.

The difference here is that they play different positions with different roles. 10 is arguably the most important roles on the pitch so a different style will effect how well a player plays. Different play styles won't effect a position like prop as much.

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

You're right. Sexton just can't be bothered with Ireland obviously. :pac:

jm08

Otacon wrote: »

Or you can design a game-plan around your team's strengths and the opposing team's weaknesses...

It's irrelevant how NZ/Carter play. We have a genuinely great ball-in-hand player, who we are asking to either kick it or pass it in very mundane or predictable backline moves.

Sexton/Ireland don't kick that much is the point I'm making. Probably kick less than any other nation.

We don't have a Sonny Bill/Nonu/Roberts/Tualagi/Davies type centre to facilitate that style of play either.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're right. Sexton just can't be bothered with Ireland obviously. :pac:

Oh, he is bothered alright.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

Prop and backrow don't depend on a style of play or gameplan as much as an outhalf, that's pretty obvious.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Oh, he is bothered alright.

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

He comes up against very high standard opposition for Leinster, he does so when the stakes are huge, and he performs consistently well. So why, if it's not the game plan, does he look flat against teams like Italy (except for when Reddan came on, but that's a different matter) and Scotland for Ireland?

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

I'd disagree. SOB's and Healy's performances are arguably mundane forward stuff compared to what they do with Leinster. Healy is never used as a first receiver for Ireland and his power in the loose is never taken advantage of. SOB is just a beast and fits nicely into the Ireland mold of playing lateral rugby with mixed forward pods.

I can think of all the players you've mentioned putting in better shifts in big Leinster games than they have done for Ireland.

And your point about BOD in the 2011 HEC final is moot - BOD was carrying a niggle and arguably shouldn't have even been playing.

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Croft was brought in not because he was a like-for-like replacement for Quinlan, but because Sky/the British media wanted him on tour.

They weren't particularly like for like but they both were skillful and mobile blindsides and both line out specialists in the back row. Both had experience at lock too. Not as far apart as we'd like to think. Quinlan had more niggle, Croft had more explosiveness but there are a number of similarities in their play.

thomond2006

Top 14 vs Lions, so it begins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19506209

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

You don't think the positional play of the OH is determined by the coach before the game?

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Have you looked at our stats for even the most recent 6N? We kicked the ball away into the opposition 22 more than any other team.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Which is all well and good if the ball is recycled quickly. It isn't.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

Absolutely not, POC is a genuine first starter for Ireland and I'd like to think he'd bring his game to the Lions. But he shouldn't be used as a ball carrier, and if he's selected for the Lions I doubt he'll be doing much of that....

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Top 14 vs Lions, so it begins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19506209

If I were Laporte or any other Top14 coach who made it to the final I wouldn't let any of squad of 23 players leave for the Lions early.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

I'd disagree. SOB's and Healy's performances are arguably mundane forward stuff compared to what they do with Leinster. Healy is never used as a first receiver for Ireland and his power in the loose is never taken advantage of. SOB is just a beast and fits nicely into the Ireland mold of playing lateral rugby with mixed forward pods.

I can think of all the players you've mentioned putting in better shifts in big Leinster games than they have done for Ireland.

And your point about BOD in the 2011 HEC final is moot - BOD was carrying a niggle and arguably shouldn't have even been playing.

I can think of at least 10 outstanding performances that BOD has had for Ireland and I can think of only 2/3 for Leinster (that time against Bourgoine is one of them).

Leinster (like Ireland and Wales), seem to have a few problems beating the Ospreys! Why is that?

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

When people complain about POC being used too often as a ball carrier, you jump to this conclusion?

You think people would like to see one of our genuinely world class players dropped?

People would like to see him carry ball less and let better ball carriers carry more, it's really not that complicated jm.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

If I were Laporte or any other Top14 coach who made it to the final I wouldn't let any of squad of 23 players leave for the Lions early.

I'm a big Lions fan but what I would say is that if a player wants to play for the Lions and play in France then he should get a clause written into their contract allowing their release for the Lions tour. No clause no release, the French clubs pay these guys a lot of money.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

He comes up against very high standard opposition for Leinster, he does so when the stakes are huge, and he performs consistently well. So why, if it's not the game plan, does he look flat against teams like Italy (except for when Reddan came on, but that's a different matter) and Scotland for Ireland?

Leinster can pretty much beat every team in Europe with Sexton at outhalf with the exception of the Ospreys - why is that?

.ak

What's the Ospreys got to do with anything? I don't think you can use that as an example - Leinster lost to Ospreys in the regular league matches under very controversial terms last season, and then in a final where they were knackered whilst aiming for a cup & league double - bearing in mind not too many teams have managed that.

What's the point you're getting at, and how is it pertinent to Sexton being selected for the Lions?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

When people complain about POC being used too often as a ball carrier, you jump to this conclusion?

You think people would like to see one of our genuinely world class players dropped?

People would like to see him carry ball less and let better ball carriers carry more, it's really not that complicated jm.

POC has been injured a lot in recent times - plenty of opportunity for these deprived carriers of ball to step up!

I can't think of any standout ones from the 6Ns or the NZ tour when POC was missing.

RuggieBear

jm08 wrote: »

Leinster can pretty much beat every team in Europe with Sexton at outhalf with the exception of the Ospreys - why is that?

I'm getting tired of your strawman arguing. If you continue to post like this you will be infracted and then banned.

CatFromHue

bilston wrote: »

I'm a big Lions fan but what I would say is that if a player wants to play for the Lions and play in France then he should get a clause written into their contract allowing their release for the Lions tour. No clause no release, the French clubs pay these guys a lot of money.

I'm not sure if I'd even entertain the idea of that clause to be honest. Can you imagine if Botha/Nacewa/Muller wanted to leave their Irish province to play for someone else if the province got to the HEC final?

jm08

.ak wrote: »

What's the Ospreys got to do with anything? I don't think you can use that as an example - Leinster lost to Ospreys in the regular league matches under very controversial terms last season, and then in a final where they were knackered whilst aiming for a cup & league double - bearing in mind not too many teams have managed that.

What's the point you're getting at, and how is it pertinent to Sexton being selected for the Lions?

It was mentioned that Leinster beat all comers in Europe. (They have their bogey team just like Ireland).

Ireland are going to have problems winning back-to-back test matches then if Leinster have a problem with back-to-back cup-league finals.
Ireland had 4 test games in a row in the 6Ns and a trip to NZ plus 3 in a row there.

HCup (against Ulster!) & Magners final (against Ospreys) don't compare to NZ back-to-back.

Edit: the last Ireland v Wales & Wales v Ireland in 6Ns were also won in controversial terms.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

POC has been injured a lot in recent times - plenty of opportunity for these deprived carriers of ball to step up!

I can't think of any standout ones from the 6Ns or the NZ tour when POC was missing.

You're confusing players with tactics. It doesn't matter who's first receiver, Ireland have the ball-carrying aspect of them game completely wrong to suit the modern game. You won't make ground by setting up pod after pod of forwards and running straight. You need dynamic runners to pick lines, dummy runs, feints, and drifting.

It's well and good when POC or AN Other absorbs a few defenders, but if there's nothing done after that but another pod attacking the line it's a waste.

jm08

RuggieBear wrote: »

I'm getting tired of your strawman arguing. If you continue to post like this you will be infracted and then banned.

I was replying to a point made by a poster.
By the way, I'd replied before I saw this post.

I'm leaving it at that, but in my opinion (which no doubt you won't agree with) the Sexton is brilliant for Leinster - its all Kidney's fault he isn't for Ireland is a similar strawman argument.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

It was mentioned that Leinster beat all comers in Europe. (They have their bogey team just like Ireland).

Ireland are going to have problems winning back-to-back test matches then if Leinster have a problem with back-to-back cup-league finals.
Ireland had 4 test games in a row in the 6Ns and a trip to NZ plus 3 in a row there.

HCup (against Ulster!) & Magners final (against Ospreys) don't compare to NZ back-to-back.

Edit: the last Ireland v Wales & Wales v Ireland in 6Ns were also won in controversial terms.

Ireland were playing Wales first game of the Six Nations in February, not like Leinster playing Ospreys the week after the H Cup final at the end of the season in May.

How many times have Ospreys and Leinster played when both have fielded full strength teams and been equally well prepared?

jm08

.ak wrote: »

You're confusing players with tactics. It doesn't matter who's first receiver, Ireland have the ball-carrying aspect of them game completely wrong to suit the modern game. You won't make ground by setting up pod after pod of forwards and running straight. You need dynamic runners to pick lines, dummy runs, feints, and drifting.

It's well and good when POC or AN Other absorbs a few defenders, but if there's nothing done after that but another pod attacking the line it's a waste.

Our backs don't have the physicallity to play that kind of game at international level that Leinster can play (note Leinster brought in Brad Thorn to help out).

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

I can think of at least 10 outstanding performances that BOD has had for Ireland and I can think of only 2/3 for Leinster (that time against Bourgoine is one of them).

I think it's safe to say, you haven't watched Leinster all that much if you think that's the case. There have been entire seasons where he was absolutely outstanding for Leinster.

jacothelad

sock puppet wrote: »

From what I remember Ford is awful and Rees wasn't really rated until he actually played in the series. Funny looking back.

Fixed.

bilston wrote: »

That 2nd test was one of the greatest test matches of recent years. Shaw was outstanding, Kearney imperious and BOD was a real leader with total disregard for his own body.

Shaw also gave away two brain dead penalties from which the Lions conceded 6 points. I think a fair bit of revisionism has gone into his participation during the tour.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

Murray. Tactics.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

I think it's safe to say, you haven't watched Leinster all that much if you think that's the case. There have been entire seasons where he was absolutely outstanding for Leinster.

I think its safe to say you don't know what my criteria is. Different standards for blokes like Brian O'Driscoll. An average BOD is an outstanding someone else.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

I think its safe to say you don't know what my criteria is. Different standards for blokes like Brian O'Driscoll. An average BOD is an outstanding someone else.

No other person can move goalposts as regularly and as quickly to try and facilitate an asinine point.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

No other person can move goalposts as regularly and as quickly to try and facilitate an asinine point.

You might try and do what I do (better for your health) and just not respond to points that you think are asinine

PS - I still think BOD has pulled out massive performances for Ireland - maybe he just didn't need to do it for Leinster.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

You might try and do what I do (better for your health) and just not respond to points that you think are asinine

nobody would talk to you then jm08.

(hint hint, nudge nudge, wink wink)

nc6000

bamboozle wrote: »

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

What's stopping the players ignoring what Kidney tells them and playing their own game? Surely they are experienced enough to know that his game plan is rubbish and the way they play with their provinces is generally light years ahead of the way Ireland play.

nc6000

nc6000 wrote: »

What's stopping the players ignoring what Kidney tells them and playing their own game? Surely they are experienced enough to know that his game plan is rubbish and the way they play with their provinces is generally light years ahead of the way Ireland play.

well apparently that's exactly what Reddan did in 6N 2011 vs England.

Hasn't worn green very often since

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

nobody would talk to you then jm08.

(hint hint, nudge nudge, wink wink)

Okay enough of off-topic stuff please folks.