British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

So you're basically saying Cave shouldn't be picked at 13 because Earls has played more and Cave can't play on the wing and fullback.

I didn't say he shouldn't be picked at 13. Unless he starts he isn't much use to a team and that makes it difficult for any coach to pick him because they can't introduce him off the bench really (Kidney did against NZ) so they would probably have to drop BOD to accommodate him. In the meantime, he can't pick up international experience where he isn't in a key position.

Oh and Paddy Wallace was never great at international level, so for some reason that means Cave won't be great either?

Absolute rubbish

Tox posted: "... He [cave] is playing a central role in arguably the form team in Europe, and (in his own words) he has looked comfortable at the top end H Cup level....... "

Just pointing out that Paddy Wallace has similar credentials.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

Tox posted: "... He [cave] is playing a central role in arguably the form team in Europe, and (in his own words) he has looked comfortable at the top end H Cup level....... "

Just pointing out that Paddy Wallace has similar credentials.

What's your point?

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

What's your point?

It means that doing well at club level doesn't mean that you will be good at international level (and visa versa - if your team is doing badly at Heineken Cup level doesn't mean a player is not international standard - i.e., Ferris was international standard even when Ulster were poor).

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

It means that doing well at club level doesn't mean that you will be good at international level (and visa versa - if your team is doing badly at Heineken Cup level doesn't mean a player is not international standard - i.e., Ferris was international standard even when Ulster were poor).

Yes, that's obvious. So why did you compare Cave to a player who never really flourished at test level rather than Ferris?

You sure you weren't trying to imply that Cave wouldn't be up to it if given the chance he well and truly deserves?

Tigerandahalf

Because Cave is not v goood just like Wallace. Neither are setting the Ulster team alight. Ulster are doing well because they have a good pack, Ruan Pienaar and an excellent back 3. Wallace and Cave are average.

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Yes, that's obvious. So why did you compare Cave to a player who never really flourished at test level rather than Ferris?

because :
Tox posted: "... He [Cave] is playing a central role in arguably the form team in Europe, and (in his own words) he has looked comfortable at the top end H Cup level....... "

You sure you weren't trying to imply that Cave wouldn't be up to it if given the chance he well and truly deserves?

No. As I said above he makes it hard for a coach to pick him because of his lack of versatility. Ferg McFadden (who isn't even first choice when all fit for his club) has established a fairly decent international career because of his versatility (and pace - which is important) ahead of Cave.

Deano7788

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Because Cave is not v goood just like Wallace. Neither are setting the Ulster team alight. Ulster are doing well because they have a good pack, Ruan Pienaar and an excellent back 3. Wallace and Cave are average.

No they're not, they're both very good players and massively underrated.

Deano7788

jm08 wrote: »

because :
Tox posted: "... He [Cave] is playing a central role in arguably the form team in Europe, and (in his own words) he has looked comfortable at the top end H Cup level....... "



No. As I said above he makes it hard for a coach to pick him because of his lack of versatility. Ferg McFadden (who isn't even first choice when all fit for his club) has established a fairly decent international career because of his versatility (and pace - which is important) ahead of Cave.

Why does his lack of versatility count against him starting at 13? It's not being said to select him on the bench, rather if BOD is unavailable or rested or whatever, why not give Cave a chance at 13.

And pace isn't that vital for a 13, look at Conrad Smith. He wouldn't be the fastest 13 around but he is the best. And BOD doesn't have great pace anymore either, but he's still a great 13.

Fishooks13

Cave isn't even slow. He's got more than enough pace to be an international 13

jm08

Deano7788 wrote: »

Why does his lack of versatility count against him starting at 13? It's not being said to select him on the bench, rather if BOD is unavailable or rested or whatever, why not give Cave a chance at 13.

If Ireland were playing 20 games a year maybe (and not 10 or so). You'd need to be an outstanding player in a key position to risk throwing into a must win 6Ns game (or a game against World Top 4 opposition which determines what tier you are in for the next world cup) for your first starting cap.

And pace isn't that vital for a 13, look at Conrad Smith. He wouldn't be the fastest 13 around but he is the best. And BOD doesn't have great pace anymore either, but he's still a great 13.

Conrad Smith's pace is deceptive and probably looks slow when you look at who surrounds him. BOD's accelleration is still good - he just doesn't have the distance anymore and he has developed his defensive game which compensates for that.

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Cave isn't even slow. He's got more than enough pace to be an international 13

If that was the case he would have gone to the world cup instead of Fergus McFadden.

I saw him play in one of the warm-up games before the world cup and he looked pedestrian along side Fergus McFadden.

Edit: he needs to have the pace to play in other positions as well as centre.

Fishooks13

jm08 wrote: »

If that was the case he would have gone to the world cup instead of Fergus McFadden.

I saw him play in one of the warm-up games before the world cup and he looked pedestrian along side Fergus McFadden.

That was nearly a year and a half ago. Cave has been the best 13 in Ireland alongside Earls and BOD since then. It's a joke that he hasn't been given more than 7 minutes in a test game

Edit: he needs to have the pace to play in other positions as well as centre.

What the hell does that matter? He's a 13 ffs. No one has said they want him to play anywhere else other than 13

jm08

Fishooks13 wrote: »

That was nearly a year and a half ago. Cave has been the best 13 in Ireland alongside Earls and BOD since then. It's a joke that he hasn't been given more than 7 minutes in a test game.

Cave was injured for the last 6Ns. He went on tour to NZ. The Captain would have had to have been dropped to accommodate him because he doesn't cover any other position. As I've said, he doesn't make it easy for a coach to want to pick him (though he did get selected for the Fiji game).

What the hell does that matter? He's a 13 ffs. No one has said they want him to play anywhere else other than 13

If he isn't first choice (BOD & Earls are more useful), he needs to be able to cover other positions - thats why Ferg McFadden has done so well.

When BOD retires he might make it - but he will be 26/27 then and there will be others who will have a lot more experience and so will be ahead of him.

Tox56

I've compared the two before, but Conrad Smith isn't a bad case study to keep in mind when considering Cave. Obviously Cave doesn't have the same ability as Smith, but they both have similar physique (identical height and weight), similar playing styles, and neither would be considered to have the electric pace that someone like Earls has.

Equally, Cave outside a McSharry or a Luke Marshall could work in the same way as Smith outside Nonu or SBW, although I think Earls would work well outside McSharry/Marshall too.

thomond2006

Take the composition of the squad. ‘I’d imagine there will be 35 players made up of a 19 to 16 split between forwards and backs, possibly 20 to 15,’ he reveals. ‘We’ll have three hookers, three 9s, three 10s and an extra prop. It means that in nearly all other positions there’ll be two players fighting it out for one spot.’

Full article

Hype710

Has it been confirmed whether there will be two props on the bench for the series?

thomond2006

Hype710 wrote: »

Has it been confirmed whether there will be two props on the bench for the series?

Not yet, hopefully it will be implemented globally. Arguably the Lions could have won the second test four years ago had there been two props on the bench. When the scrums became uncontested after both Jenkins and Jones went off, the Boks came back into the game.

Fishooks13

I think the most telling thing in terms of looking towards a Lions win. Bar James O Connor and Digbe Iona, it's hard to imagine any other Australian players making the Lion's test 15

thomond2006

Pocock and Genia?

Fishooks13

thomond2006 wrote: »

Pocock and Genia?

Sorry ya Genia would walk onto it and Pocock would be there or there abouts too. Although I'd have SOB over him

Fooker

Moore? Pocock? Genia? Ioane? O'Connor? Beale? Cooper? Ashley-Cooper?

Deano7788

Fooker wrote: »

Moore? Pocock? Genia? Ioane? O'Connor? Beale? Cooper? Ashley-Cooper?

I'd have Best above Moore, Sexton above Beale or Cooper and BOD and Davies above Ashley-Cooper. He admitted he forgot Genia, although I probably would have Pocock.

dropkickrugby

thomond2006 wrote: »

Full article

its amazing how thick people can still be. Third comment down in the comments at the bottom of that article. It's amazing some people still think Ireland is part of Britain. The guy probably still thinks they own HongKong too....Gobshlte.

P.Walnuts

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Sorry ya Genia would walk onto it and Pocock would be there or there abouts too. Although I'd have SOB over him

SOB has had a handful of high class games as an openside, Pocock has been doing it consistently for seasons. Pocock all day long.

Fishooks13

P.Walnuts wrote: »

SOB has had a handful of high class games as an openside, Pocock has been doing it consistently for seasons. Pocock all day long.

He won European player of the year playing at 7. Not to mention playing the vast majority of his rugby for Ireland very well there too, including outplaying Richie McCaw in NZ. He's a world class 7, and injury has really hampered Pocock who hasn't delivered a really top class performance for Australia in over a year.

P.Walnuts

Fishooks13 wrote: »

He won European player of the year playing at 7. Not to mention playing the vast majority of his rugby for Ireland very well there too, including outplaying Richie McCaw in NZ. He's a world class 7, and injury has really hampered Pocock who hasn't delivered a really top class performance for Australia in over a year.

I'm not saying SOB isn't a good openside, but I think world class is premature. Pocock is proven at the highest level for years and is clearly the no.2 openside behind McCaw imo.

irishbucsfan

SOB is a great 7 but Pocock is immense on form. I wouldnt even consider SOB there.

Higher

Pocock over SOB but SOB is definitely world class at 7. European Player of the year and literally ripped teams apart in the World Cup, NZ media were all over him.

P.Walnuts

Higher wrote: »

Pocock over SOB but SOB is definitely world class at 7. European Player of the year and literally ripped teams apart in the World Cup, NZ media were all over him.

C'mon now less of the hyperbole. We played two top level teams at the WC, he played well in one, and played poorly in the other. Hardly tearing teams apart.

I think the world class openside talk is premature.

Higher

P.Walnuts wrote: »

C'mon now less of the hyperbole. We played two top level teams at the WC, he played well in one, and played poorly in the other. Hardly tearing teams apart.

I think the world class openside talk is premature.

Ah come on now, firstly he was utterly brilliant against Australia, secondly he wasn't poor against Wales. Brilliant against Italy as well. He got Player of the Pool! http://www.thescore.ie/sean-obrien-named-as-the-official-player-of-pool-c-244900-Oct2011/ Also put in pools dream team in Sydney Herald over every other openside http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/rugby-union/union-news/team-of-the-rugby-world-cup--pool-stage-20111003-1l58n.html and described as "Probably the best ball-carrying back-rower in the world right now. Creates havoc in attack and destroys on defence. Next best: Sam Warburton (Wales)"

Surely you remember the NZ media going mad over SOB? He trended on twitter in NZ!!