British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

FellasFellas

Tuilagi and BOD would be a perfect combination imo. Halfpenny to start 15 with Cuthbert and Hogg on the wings, Sexton 10 with Care at 9. Healy, Best and Cole, Hamilton/Hines and Gray, Robshaw as skipper with Faletau and O'Brien at 6.

Then T Youngs, Vunipola, Ross/Adam Jones, Launchbury/D Ryan, Tipuric, Youngs, Farrell, North/Kearney etc, not too sure on the 23 jersey.

Swiwi

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Halfpenny's flaw is a lack of a running game so you put him on the wing? Hmmm.....

He's nailed on as starting 15 IMO.

Tuilagi will be 13

12 between Roberts and Barritt I think

Wings too tough to call right now but I would say maybe North, Cuthbert, Ashton and Bowe.

Firstly, you'll note I put flaw in inverted commas. HP is an excellent fullback, and I would have no issue with him starting there. However, I think he is more of a straight line runner, I don't think he has the counter-attacking ability of a Christian Cullen...or a Stuart Hogg. My selection choice is designed to utilise HP's strengths, but add the running skills of Hogg. Also, I think all 4 national teams should be represented, I don't mean tokenism, but Hogg merits his place - Imagine if Ireland had no players in the starting XV, it wouldn't be quite the same viewing experience IMO.

I won't be surprised if Roberts gets the 12 spot, althought I think then combining him with Tualagi is a bit like Thing 1 and Thing 2, they are fairly identical style of players, and you might find the Lions wings starved of ball. I prefer a thinking man's 12, hence BOD (although I take Tox56's point on board), and why I like the look of Luke Marshall.

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Halfpenny's flaw is a lack of a running game so you put him on the wing? Hmmm.....

He's nailed on as starting 15 IMO.

Tuilagi will be 13

12 between Roberts and Barritt I think

Wings too tough to call right now but I would say maybe North, Cuthbert, Ashton and Bowe.

Halfpenny is a fantastic wing though, he's been a proven wing at all levels. If moving Halfpenny to the wing means including another excellent player like Hogg, so be it.

geekington

Swiwi - very interesting point about Warren Gatland needing to impress the Kiwis with an attacking game if he is to ever convince them he is a future AB coach.

He mentioned recently that he views himself as a northern hemisphere coach which I found facinating.

We are so focussed on winning this year with the Lions that I would be surprised if goes away from a power game to beat the Aussies. However, the Lions are the best the NH can offer we need to run and attack to give ourseleves some credibility.

What are your thoughts on this??

P.Walnuts

.ak wrote: »

Halfpenny is a fantastic wing though, he's been a proven wing at all levels. If moving Halfpenny to the wing means including another excellent player like Hogg, so be it.

Just think he is a better FB. Its not like we are short of quality wingers anyway, i'm obviously not as set on Hogg as some here....we kicked plenty of aimless ball on sunday yet I didn't see any counter attacking. Clearly a good player and will get better but hasn't done enough to merit a test spot IMO...

Swiwi

geekington wrote: »

Swiwi - very interesting point about Warren Gatland needing to impress the Kiwis with an attacking game if he is to ever convince them he is a future AB coach.

He mentioned recently that he views himself as a northern hemisphere coach which I found facinating.

We are so focussed on winning this year with the Lions that I would be surprised if goes away from a power game to beat the Aussies. However, the Lions are the best the NH can offer we need to run and attack to give ourseleves some credibility.

What are your thoughts on this??

My understanding is that he would like to coach the ABs, but I may be wrong. The NZ public has always scorned so-called 10-man rugby, even to our detriment (see 2007 for an example), and generally the AB style of running rugby is successful, but can become unstuck if NZ loses the battle of the breakdown and fast ruck ball (eg Ireland 2nd test).

I don't think he will go away from a power game in the forwards (that would be foolish), but I do think he will go for a Wales 2011 GS style of back play rather than a more conservative English/SA approach.

Nevertheless, he would find it a hard sell, even with a 3-0 Lions series victory on his CV, to get the NZ public behind him for the ABs if it was based a round a big pack and a kicking 10, it would just seem too "English" if I'm allowed to say that

On the other hand, if he gets a 3-0 Lions win, the NZRFU probably couldn't match the salaries he would be offered in Europe (as it was he apparently considered coaching the Chiefs before Rennie was appointed, but was dismayed at the money offered to him).

English Lurker

I'm intrigued you went for Cuthbert ahead of North - or even someone like Visser or Maitland - I feel Cuthbert offers no more in attack than the names mentioned, is less agile, and gets lost more often in defence. Did pick a lovely line for the Welsh try last week though.

I'd also go for Tuilagi at 12, O'Driscoll at 13 - I like thinking 12s as well, just think it might take O'Driscoll a little longer to adjust there. Only issue is Tuilagi isn't quite adjusted to it either, likes more space, and although he can offload he's not the greatest at it.

Would be intrigued to see your pack Swiwi.

.ak

Have to say I'm a bit of a Cuthbert fan myself. He scores the most out of the current Welsh back three, and I think he always runs great lines. I think he's the fastest out of the three also.

.ak

Although I'd love Maitland involved in the team. I think he's class, especially if he keeps his current form up.

Swiwi

English Lurker wrote: »

Would be intrigued to see your pack Swiwi.

As requested, English Lurker.

1. Cian Healy
To my mind, Cian Healy is strangely under-rated outside of Ireland. He had a fantastic tour to NZ, and has pretty much continued that form. I think the other nations see him as a bit of a bonehead, and his recent mindless stamp & citing will only have reinforced that view. He scrums well, defends well, is mobile round the field, and is good value for a short-range try.

2. Tom Youngs
Heart says Rory Best, head says Tom Youngs. Had a great game v NZ in November, and has pretty much kicked on from there. Not flashy, but does the basics well. Best had a shocker at the lineouts in the weekend, to the point where a repeat performance could cost a Lions series. These are my first 2 picks though at hooker, so whoever starts, the other is on the bench.

3. Adam Jones
This could also go to Dan Cole TBH. However, Domingo definitely got the better of Cole in the weekend, and to everyone's surprise the Aussie pack held their own at scrumtime v England in the AIs, they might even have edged it, although Eng had a sub-par Marler at LH that day. All the test matches are on a Saturday, so that also brings Scotland's Murray into consideration, but I haven't seen enough of him. I have a feeling the warmup matches will be crucial in deciding the TH berth.

4. Richie Gray
This is one of those "class is permanent, form is temporary selections". I dont think Gray has been at the top of his game this 6N, but I reckon with better company around him, and good coaching he could become a star of the tour. He's a player I would back myself to bring the best out of. With my inevitable NZ comparison (!), it's a bit like the multitude of Blues players who spent a season with the Crusaders and became ABs eg Ron Cribb.

5. Geoff Parling
England have 2 very good locks, but I think Parling edges Launchbury at present. There are other good candidates, including Ireland's Donncha Ryan, but the English pack has been purring along nicely, and Parling is a big part of that.

6. Sean O'Brien
I get to indulge my preference, and put SOB at 6. To be honest, no matter which combination of loose forwards I choose, someone on boards will disagree, as it's very competitive. SOB has to be in the loose forward mix, and may be preferred on the bench where he would certainly add impact (note to PSA). It really comes down to which style of 6 WG wants - he could go with the bullocking style of SOB/Ferris etc, or the more rangy lineout options like Tom Wood/Tom Croft or the hardworking Lydiate.

7. Chris Robshaw
There are no out and out 7s in the style of the Aussie 7s (Pocock, Gill, Hooper) so rather than trying to match Australia in this department, I would try and outmuscle them. Robshaw gives his all, is pretty immaculate in his play, and most importantly seems to lack the Farrell/Ashton petulance. And he's a lineout option.

8. Johnnie Beattie
The best No 8s in Europe are not eligible for the Lions (Parisse, Picamoles), but Beattie is another player who I think would go well in a better team. Pretty sure Faletau will get this spot though, and I wouldn't have a problem with it either.

My captain is Robshaw, my vice-captain is BOD (either at 12 or 13).

I expect there would be a fair amount of disagreement with my forwards selection, in particular some of the Welsh loosies have a strong following on this forum (Tipuric, Lydiate etc).

irishbucsfan

Most of our lineout issues at the weekend were jumper related in fairness. Best had one or two bad throws. And Youngs hasn't been much better with his throwing either (and didn't even start last weekend iirc?). I like Youngs but I'd have Rory.

Wouldn't have Gray near the team based on his past 6 months of rugby tbh. He's big and his hair makes him noticeable but there are better options imo.

FellasFellas

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of our lineout issues at the weekend were jumper related in fairness. Best had one or two bad throws. And Youngs hasn't been much better with his throwing either (and didn't even start last weekend iirc?). I like Youngs but I'd have Rory.

Wouldn't have Gray near the team based on his past 6 months of rugby tbh. He's big and his hair makes him noticeable but there are better options imo.

Gray plays for the worst team in England and up to this season; one of the worst if not the worst team in the Six Nations over the years. I would love to see him in a winning enviroment, I think he'd flourish.

Tox56

Would defo have Best ahead of Youngs. Youngs was dropped after he had a shocker in the lineout against us, and for all his faults, Hartley significantly improved things when he came on.

Healy is underrated outside Ireland but I think a lot of that stems from his high-profile scrummaging troubles a few years ago. He was very raw at the time (and he's still only young, so he really was a toddler back then in propping terms), and he's a significantly improved scrummager now. Those perceptions take a while to change, and although Twickenham 2012 wasn't his fault, it definitely didn't help his reputation. It's almost like people can't believe someone that mobile can also be a good scrummager

Swiwi

The Aussies have started planning...

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/lessons-from-scotland-and-samoa-losses-give-wallaby-hopefuls-a-short-time-to-make-big-strides-20130227-2f4uc.html

"It will be too too late for Australian rugby to express regrets about inadequate preparation if the cheery Lions are photographed nursing celebratory beers in the Sydney Airport departure lounge come July."

Nicely put...and I would add their supporters...

Swiwi

.ak wrote: »

Although I'd love Maitland involved in the team. I think he's class, especially if he keeps his current form up.

He could lead the Haka! Oh wait...

.ak

Swiwi wrote: »

The Aussies have started planning...

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/lessons-from-scotland-and-samoa-losses-give-wallaby-hopefuls-a-short-time-to-make-big-strides-20130227-2f4uc.html

"It will be too too late for Australian rugby to express regrets about inadequate preparation if the cheery Lions are photographed nursing celebratory beers in the Sydney Airport departure lounge come July."

Nicely put...and I would add their supporters...

Ha. TBH I really hope they hit form, and I hope the rest of the Home Nations pick it up too. Aside from Scotland I think all the home nations have been average. England are England, and they've played the percentages, but that kind of stuff won't cut it on tour. It'd be terrible if both sides don't produce the goods, especially after how good the last tour was.

Swiwi

.ak wrote: »

Ha. TBH I really hope they hit form, and I hope the rest of the Home Nations pick it up too. Aside from Scotland I think all the home nations have been average. England are England, and they've played the percentages, but that kind of stuff won't cut it on tour. It'd be terrible if both sides don't produce the goods, especially after how good the last tour was.

I think the Aussies will be hard enough to beat. The First Test is in Brisbane, and they don't do dreary cold miserable weather there, rather sticky humid dehydrating conditions. Could be a rude awakening for the tourists. It's probably not unreasonable to bill this as Lions forwards v Aussie backs, around a fulcrum of the breakdown. I really hope both teams are not decimated by injury, I want to see the best play the best, and that means Pocock, Genia etc for Aussie.

postitnote

I wouldn't fear Brisbane as much at that time of year, in fact I would imagine Hong Kong to be the stickiest, warmest place the Lions will play this year. An 8pm kick off in Brisbane with a mean high temp of 21.9C and 50% humidity should be manageable.

In comparison, London in May has a mean average temp of around 17C, and the Finals at Twickenham usually happen during the daytime when I would expect the temps to be higher.

Add in the odd player or 2 playing in warm and sunny France, I don't see climatic conditions playing too big a part.

For reference: I've been in Brisbane at that time of year, I merely speculate about Hong Kong.

English Lurker

Good pack Swiwi; the only things I'd change are Youngs for Best and Gray for, well, whoever... probably Launchbury, possibly with a touch of bias. In Youngs' case it's because his set-piece game is really not good.

With Gray, one day I hope to see the player everyone talks about, because right now I think he's the most overrated softcock in international rugby. And yes, I was thinking that before he went to Sale... but as you say, might blossom with the Lions.

irishbucsfan

English Lurker wrote: »

With Gray, one day I hope to see the player everyone talks about, because right now I think he's the most overrated softcock in international rugby. And yes, I was thinking that before he went to Sale... but as you say, might blossom with the Lions.

I think there is genuinely an element of him being so big and so noticeable that people think he's better than he is because he's more visible.

I've had the same issue myself with locks in the past. One example being Mauritz Botha. In fact it was a Sarries supporting mate of mine who sat me down in a pub and said "think very hard, is he actually getting through work or are you just seeing that red scrum cap everywhere?" I went back and watched him and realised he is actually fairly average!

Although I have to say I do think Gray was very good for Scotland last year. At this point in time I'm not so sure he should even be ahead of Kellock!

thomond2006

http://www.planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_8528790,00.html

ugh

bilston

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_8528790,00.html

ugh

It was really disappointing when SA did this in 2009, so it's a shame to hear it will happen again in 2013 with Australia. I can't remember what NZ did in 2005 but doing this kind of destroys the tour concept. The Lions might as well play a couple of warm ups at home and then fly out and play Australia A or something to acclimatise and then play the test series.

Swiwi

English Lurker wrote: »

Good pack Swiwi; the only things I'd change are Youngs for Best and Gray for, well, whoever... probably Launchbury, possibly with a touch of bias. In Youngs' case it's because his set-piece game is really not good.

With Gray, one day I hope to see the player everyone talks about, because right now I think he's the most overrated softcock in international rugby. And yes, I was thinking that before he went to Sale... but as you say, might blossom with the Lions.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there is genuinely an element of him being so big and so noticeable that people think he's better than he is because he's more visible.

I've had the same issue myself with locks in the past. One example being Mauritz Botha. In fact it was a Sarries supporting mate of mine who sat me down in a pub and said "think very hard, is he actually getting through work or are you just seeing that red scrum cap everywhere?" I went back and watched him and realised he is actually fairly average!

Although I have to say I do think Gray was very good for Scotland last year. At this point in time I'm not so sure he should even be ahead of Kellock!

I can assure you it wasn't Gray's golden locks, finely honed pecs or dulcet Scottish tones that made me choose him. I agree with you both that on form alone he doesn't merit his place. But I think he has potential as witnessed last year which Gatland can extract. On form I would go with Launchbury.

CatFromHue

bilston wrote: »

It was really disappointing when SA did this in 2009, so it's a shame to hear it will happen again in 2013 with Australia. I can't remember what NZ did in 2005 but doing this kind of destroys the tour concept. The Lions might as well play a couple of warm ups at home and then fly out and play Australia A or something to acclimatise and then play the test series.

I think NZ might have pulled the players, I'm not 100%. NZ has such a strong depth in players that they can do this without weakening the pre test games though. Also the game against the NZ Maori was nearly full strength (Leon MacDonald, Rico Gear, and Carl Hayman all played).

Australia doesn't have anywhere near the same strength in depth so this could be a big problem. There's no Australia 'A' game either so the Lions could end up going into the test games having only played average teams!

English Lurker

The thing that finally, completely turned me against Gray - until presented with evidence otherwise - is when I spent the second half of Scotland-Italy following him around the park and watched him hit a grand total of five rucks in forty minutes. For me, that is unforgivable from a forward. Still, no doubt he has potential, he's a great athlete and I'd want athletes for this... so I shall demur for now. But comparing him with Launchbury, who's frequently the first man over the ball for us after a big break... well, now I will demur.

Completely agree about Beattie mind. Not nearly highly thought of enough in general.

totallegend

Stephen Jones has announced he'll retire at the end of the season and will take a job on the Wasps coaching staff.

Six Lions tests over two tours, as well as 104 caps for Wales (incl two Grand Slams).

Fair play, always very under-rated IMO.

bilston

totallegend wrote: »

Stephen Jones has announced he'll retire at the end of the season and will take a job on the Wasps coaching staff.

Six Lions tests over two tours, as well as 104 caps for Wales (incl two Grand Slams).

Fair play, always very under-rated IMO.

I was so happy there when I read the first line of your post...

Swiwi

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think NZ might have pulled the players, I'm not 100%. NZ has such a strong depth in players that they can do this without weakening the pre test games though. Also the game against the NZ Maori was nearly full strength (Leon MacDonald, Rico Gear, and Carl Hayman all played).

Australia doesn't have anywhere near the same strength in depth so this could be a big problem. There's no Australia 'A' game either so the Lions could end up going into the test games having only played average teams!

Yep ABs were pulled. But with 27 provincial unions of which 14 in the first division of ITM cup it is more diluted cf Australia.

irishbucsfan

Lewis Moody's team:

15. Halfpenny
14. North
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. Visser
10. Farrell
9. Youngs

8. (Not included?!)
7. Tipuric
6. O'Brien
5. Launchbury
4. Hamilton
3. Cole
2. Youngs
1. Healy

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lewis Moody's team:

15. Halfpenny
14. North
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. Visser
10. Farrell
9. Youngs

8. (Not included?!)
7. Tipuric
6. O'Brien
5. Launchbury
4. Hamilton
3. Cole
2. Youngs
1. Healy

Farrell-Roberts-Tuilagi.. jaysus that's a limited midfield! Maybe the "England style" would give us a better chance of winning against the Aussies, but I would still be very disappointed to see it