British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Otacon

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

If he does wonder that, I'm sure his brain would quickly tell him that Sexton is the play-maker and is the only one being asked to change the way he plays. Our antiquated game-plan hampers us, primarily at outhalf, as he is asked to kick rather than attack the line.

Its like having a boxer with a devastating right hook, whose coach then straps up his right arm.

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

Kearney and BOD both played better for Leinster. Healy and SOB just do what they do best regardless of who they play for.

The difference here is that they play different positions with different roles. 10 is arguably the most important roles on the pitch so a different style will effect how well a player plays. Different play styles won't effect a position like prop as much.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

When was the last time BOD played better for Ireland than he has done for Leinster? Certainly not on the latest tour, certainly not when he was injured, certainly not during the world cup, certainly not during the 6 Nations previous to that.... what are you talking about?

All the rest, bar Kearney, are forwards and not really relevant to the point.

jm08

Otacon wrote: »

If he does wonder that, I'm sure his brain would quickly tell him that Sexton is the play-maker and is the only one being asked to change the way he plays. Our antiquated game-plan hampers us, primarily at outhalf, as he is asked to kick rather than attack the line.

Its like having a boxer with a devastating right hook, whose coach then straps up his right arm.

Interestingly, New Zealand nearly lost the game when Carter kicked least! TBH, there is little in the difference in the amount of kicking between NZ & Ireland in the summer tests.

Most coaches encourage players to play what is in front of them (Rob Penney is articulating that very well at the moment). Sometimes kicking is the only way to break down a blitz defence - and I see that Doug Howlett has now added it to his list of skills. The thing is to do it intelligently though.

Otacon

jm08 wrote: »

Interestingly, New Zealand nearly lost the game when Carter kicked least! TBH, there is little in the difference in the amount of kicking between NZ & Ireland in the summer tests.

Most coaches encourage players to play what is in front of them (Rob Penney is articulating that very well at the moment). Sometimes kicking is the only way to break down a blitz defence - and I see that Doug Howlett has now added it to his list of skills. The thing is to do it intelligently though.

Or you can design a game-plan around your team's strengths and the opposing team's weaknesses...

It's irrelevant how NZ/Carter play. We have a genuinely great ball-in-hand player, who we are asking to either kick it or pass it in very mundane or predictable backline moves.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Kearney and BOD both played better for Leinster. Healy and SOB just do what they do best regardless of who they play for.

The difference here is that they play different positions with different roles. 10 is arguably the most important roles on the pitch so a different style will effect how well a player plays. Different play styles won't effect a position like prop as much.

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

You're right. Sexton just can't be bothered with Ireland obviously. :pac:

jm08

Otacon wrote: »

Or you can design a game-plan around your team's strengths and the opposing team's weaknesses...

It's irrelevant how NZ/Carter play. We have a genuinely great ball-in-hand player, who we are asking to either kick it or pass it in very mundane or predictable backline moves.

Sexton/Ireland don't kick that much is the point I'm making. Probably kick less than any other nation.

We don't have a Sonny Bill/Nonu/Roberts/Tualagi/Davies type centre to facilitate that style of play either.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're right. Sexton just can't be bothered with Ireland obviously. :pac:

Oh, he is bothered alright.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

If you go back to the Leinster v Northampton final - it was Sexton, not BOD who was the standout player. Anytime that Ireland has done well, BOD has been playing well.

Healy turned into a world class prop at the world cup. Up to that his form could vary (to be expected from a young prop).

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

Prop and backrow don't depend on a style of play or gameplan as much as an outhalf, that's pretty obvious.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Oh, he is bothered alright.

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

He comes up against very high standard opposition for Leinster, he does so when the stakes are huge, and he performs consistently well. So why, if it's not the game plan, does he look flat against teams like Italy (except for when Reddan came on, but that's a different matter) and Scotland for Ireland?

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

My point is that SOB & Healy's performances don't drop when playing for Ireland anyway like Sexton's appears to.

I'd disagree. SOB's and Healy's performances are arguably mundane forward stuff compared to what they do with Leinster. Healy is never used as a first receiver for Ireland and his power in the loose is never taken advantage of. SOB is just a beast and fits nicely into the Ireland mold of playing lateral rugby with mixed forward pods.

I can think of all the players you've mentioned putting in better shifts in big Leinster games than they have done for Ireland.

And your point about BOD in the 2011 HEC final is moot - BOD was carrying a niggle and arguably shouldn't have even been playing.

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

Do you not think that Gatland might wonder why Healy, Cronin, SOB, Ross, BOD* & Kearney* etc. can bring their Leinster game to Ireland and Sexton can't?

*those two look better for Ireland than they do for Leinster.

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

Croft was brought in not because he was a like-for-like replacement for Quinlan, but because Sky/the British media wanted him on tour.

They weren't particularly like for like but they both were skillful and mobile blindsides and both line out specialists in the back row. Both had experience at lock too. Not as far apart as we'd like to think. Quinlan had more niggle, Croft had more explosiveness but there are a number of similarities in their play.

thomond2006

Top 14 vs Lions, so it begins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19506209

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

You don't think the positional play of the OH is determined by the coach before the game?

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Have you looked at our stats for even the most recent 6N? We kicked the ball away into the opposition 22 more than any other team.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Which is all well and good if the ball is recycled quickly. It isn't.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

Absolutely not, POC is a genuine first starter for Ireland and I'd like to think he'd bring his game to the Lions. But he shouldn't be used as a ball carrier, and if he's selected for the Lions I doubt he'll be doing much of that....

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Top 14 vs Lions, so it begins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19506209

If I were Laporte or any other Top14 coach who made it to the final I wouldn't let any of squad of 23 players leave for the Lions early.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

I'd disagree. SOB's and Healy's performances are arguably mundane forward stuff compared to what they do with Leinster. Healy is never used as a first receiver for Ireland and his power in the loose is never taken advantage of. SOB is just a beast and fits nicely into the Ireland mold of playing lateral rugby with mixed forward pods.

I can think of all the players you've mentioned putting in better shifts in big Leinster games than they have done for Ireland.

And your point about BOD in the 2011 HEC final is moot - BOD was carrying a niggle and arguably shouldn't have even been playing.

I can think of at least 10 outstanding performances that BOD has had for Ireland and I can think of only 2/3 for Leinster (that time against Bourgoine is one of them).

Leinster (like Ireland and Wales), seem to have a few problems beating the Ospreys! Why is that?

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

When people complain about POC being used too often as a ball carrier, you jump to this conclusion?

You think people would like to see one of our genuinely world class players dropped?

People would like to see him carry ball less and let better ball carriers carry more, it's really not that complicated jm.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

If I were Laporte or any other Top14 coach who made it to the final I wouldn't let any of squad of 23 players leave for the Lions early.

I'm a big Lions fan but what I would say is that if a player wants to play for the Lions and play in France then he should get a clause written into their contract allowing their release for the Lions tour. No clause no release, the French clubs pay these guys a lot of money.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

He comes up against very high standard opposition for Leinster, he does so when the stakes are huge, and he performs consistently well. So why, if it's not the game plan, does he look flat against teams like Italy (except for when Reddan came on, but that's a different matter) and Scotland for Ireland?

Leinster can pretty much beat every team in Europe with Sexton at outhalf with the exception of the Ospreys - why is that?

.ak

What's the Ospreys got to do with anything? I don't think you can use that as an example - Leinster lost to Ospreys in the regular league matches under very controversial terms last season, and then in a final where they were knackered whilst aiming for a cup & league double - bearing in mind not too many teams have managed that.

What's the point you're getting at, and how is it pertinent to Sexton being selected for the Lions?

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

When people complain about POC being used too often as a ball carrier, you jump to this conclusion?

You think people would like to see one of our genuinely world class players dropped?

People would like to see him carry ball less and let better ball carriers carry more, it's really not that complicated jm.

POC has been injured a lot in recent times - plenty of opportunity for these deprived carriers of ball to step up!

I can't think of any standout ones from the 6Ns or the NZ tour when POC was missing.

RuggieBear

jm08 wrote: »

Leinster can pretty much beat every team in Europe with Sexton at outhalf with the exception of the Ospreys - why is that?

I'm getting tired of your strawman arguing. If you continue to post like this you will be infracted and then banned.

CatFromHue

bilston wrote: »

I'm a big Lions fan but what I would say is that if a player wants to play for the Lions and play in France then he should get a clause written into their contract allowing their release for the Lions tour. No clause no release, the French clubs pay these guys a lot of money.

I'm not sure if I'd even entertain the idea of that clause to be honest. Can you imagine if Botha/Nacewa/Muller wanted to leave their Irish province to play for someone else if the province got to the HEC final?

jm08

.ak wrote: »

What's the Ospreys got to do with anything? I don't think you can use that as an example - Leinster lost to Ospreys in the regular league matches under very controversial terms last season, and then in a final where they were knackered whilst aiming for a cup & league double - bearing in mind not too many teams have managed that.

What's the point you're getting at, and how is it pertinent to Sexton being selected for the Lions?

It was mentioned that Leinster beat all comers in Europe. (They have their bogey team just like Ireland).

Ireland are going to have problems winning back-to-back test matches then if Leinster have a problem with back-to-back cup-league finals.
Ireland had 4 test games in a row in the 6Ns and a trip to NZ plus 3 in a row there.

HCup (against Ulster!) & Magners final (against Ospreys) don't compare to NZ back-to-back.

Edit: the last Ireland v Wales & Wales v Ireland in 6Ns were also won in controversial terms.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

POC has been injured a lot in recent times - plenty of opportunity for these deprived carriers of ball to step up!

I can't think of any standout ones from the 6Ns or the NZ tour when POC was missing.

You're confusing players with tactics. It doesn't matter who's first receiver, Ireland have the ball-carrying aspect of them game completely wrong to suit the modern game. You won't make ground by setting up pod after pod of forwards and running straight. You need dynamic runners to pick lines, dummy runs, feints, and drifting.

It's well and good when POC or AN Other absorbs a few defenders, but if there's nothing done after that but another pod attacking the line it's a waste.

jm08

RuggieBear wrote: »

I'm getting tired of your strawman arguing. If you continue to post like this you will be infracted and then banned.

I was replying to a point made by a poster.
By the way, I'd replied before I saw this post.

I'm leaving it at that, but in my opinion (which no doubt you won't agree with) the Sexton is brilliant for Leinster - its all Kidney's fault he isn't for Ireland is a similar strawman argument.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

It was mentioned that Leinster beat all comers in Europe. (They have their bogey team just like Ireland).

Ireland are going to have problems winning back-to-back test matches then if Leinster have a problem with back-to-back cup-league finals.
Ireland had 4 test games in a row in the 6Ns and a trip to NZ plus 3 in a row there.

HCup (against Ulster!) & Magners final (against Ospreys) don't compare to NZ back-to-back.

Edit: the last Ireland v Wales & Wales v Ireland in 6Ns were also won in controversial terms.

Ireland were playing Wales first game of the Six Nations in February, not like Leinster playing Ospreys the week after the H Cup final at the end of the season in May.

How many times have Ospreys and Leinster played when both have fielded full strength teams and been equally well prepared?