British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

schools rugby

Gonna throw it out there ....Andrew Sheridan to make the squad anyone ???? He has been quietly going about his work in Toulon

thomond2006

schools rugby wrote: »

Gonna throw it out there ....Andrew Sheridan to make the squad anyone ???? He has been quietly going about his work in Toulon

If Gatland is willing to look outside Six Nations then Sheridan is a possibility.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Gatland is willing to look outside Six Nations then Sheridan is a possibility.

As is Hines and Armitage (Steffon) all are playing well enough in fairness, and lets not forget about King Johnny in Toulon. Hines is probably a good call for the 2nd row and said he'd willingly leave before end of Top14 season to travel, did it before

Heroditas

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Probably no bad thing that Ireland won't have many traveling with the Lions. The squad is injury ravaged, numerous players probably need a rest during the Summer and the new coach (hopefully) could probably do without it given he has to rebuild almost from the bottom up.

The Lions is obviously a big honour for the players but whether they win or lose I forget about it within an hour. Whereas Ireland losing is just depressing.

Yep, we'll see a Lions squad dominated by Welsh players and a few Englishmen thrown in with a token Scot and Irishman as well.
Once the heat gets turned up, the Welsh will implode once again and the Australians will take the Lions apart in the first two tests and we'll see an English dominated Lions team for the third test.
Can't see Australia being too worried by the Lions panel if and when it's dominated by Wales. They've managed to beat them every time in the last few games.

I could mean that any incoming Irish coach will have a fresh rested panel of players to choose from (bar one or two) and hopefully give him a fighting chance in the Autumn Series to build some momentum going into the 6N next year.

schools rugby

Heroditas wrote: »

Yep, we'll see a Lions squad dominated by Welsh players and a few Englishmen thrown in with a token Scot and Irishman as well.
Once the heat gets turned up, the Welsh will implode once again and the Australians will take the Lions apart in the first two tests and we'll see an English dominated Lions team for the third test.
Can't see Australia being too worried by the Lions panel if and when it's dominated by Wales. They've managed to beat them every time in the last few games.

I could mean that any incoming Irish coach will have a fresh rested panel of players to choose from (bar one or two) and hopefully give him a fighting chance in the Autumn Series to build some momentum going into the 6N next year.

When Ireland won the slam in 09 we only had 5 starters in the first test, i think there will be an even distribution

Thekidneybean

Anyone think Madigan should travel?

matthew8

Thekidneybean wrote: »

Anyone think Madigan should travel?

Well for Bolters I think he should certainly be considered. Not sure where he fits in though, I'd prefer Wade to be brought as a Bolter.

RoundBox11

I've been thinking about the Lions team a bit this weekend and right now I wouldn't be surprised to see this starting team.

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Davies
11. Brown
10. Sexton
9. Youngs
8. Morgan
7. Tipuric
6. O'Brien
5. Parling
4. Wyn-Jones
3. Jones
2. Best
1. Healy

Rest of squad:
Bennett, Youngs
Jenkins, Corbisiero, Cole, Murray
Gray, POC, Hamilton
Wood, Warburton, Faletau

Murray, Phillips
Farrell, Biggar
Tuilagi, Roberts
North, Bowe, Zebo
Hogg, Kearney

I know there's a few too many there but I couldn't be added going rounding it off. I dunno how many will be in the squad anyway.

Edit: autocorrect being a deck

ScissorPaperRock

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Edit: autocorrect being a deck

Brilliant

Cardinal Richelieu

Eddie Butlers Lions selection, 18 Welsh, 5 Scots, 7 English and 5 Irish. Two Welsh for the Hookers and Scrumhalf positions.

The Observer

Full-backs Leigh Halfpenny, Stuart Hogg

Wings George North, Sean Maitland, Tim Visser, Alex Cuthbert

Centres Brian O'Driscoll (capt), Jamie Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Manu Tuilagi.

Fly-halves Jonathan Sexton, Dan Biggar

Scrum-halves Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs, Lloyd Williams

Props Gethin Jenkins, Mako Vunipola, Cian Healy, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Paul James

Hookers Ken Owens, Richard Hibbard, Ross Ford

Second-rows Joe Launchbury, Geoff Parling, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Donnacha Ryan

Flankers Chris Robshaw, Justin Tipuric, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien

No8s Toby Faletau, Johnnie Beattie

Further Reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/mar/16/lions-tour-sam-warburton

RoundBox11

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Eddie Butlers Lions selection, 18 Welsh, 5 Scots, 7 English and 5 Irish. Two Welsh for the Hookers and Scrumhalf positions.

The Observer

Ken Owens, Ross Ford, Beattie and Lloyd Williams?? Really?

its_phil

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I've been thinking about the Lions team a bit this weekend and right now I wouldn't be surprised to see this starting team.

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Davies
11. Brown
10. Sexton
9. Youngs
8. Morgan
7. Tipuric
6. O'Brien
5. Parling
4. Wyn-Jones
3. Jones
2. Best
1. Healy

Rest of squad:
Bennett, Youngs
Jenkins, Corbisiero, Cole, Murray
Gray, POC, Hamilton
Wood, Warburton, Faletau

Murray, Phillips
Farrell, Biggar
Tuilagi, Roberts
North, Bowe, Zebo
Hogg, Kearney

I know there's a few too many there but I couldn't be added going rounding it off. I dunno how many will be in the squad anyway.

Edit: autocorrect being a deck

Davies at 12 is sheer madness, he isn't a good enough passer. A good 13 though. He's a man to go through gaps, not make them for others.

thomond2006

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Ken Owens, Ross Ford, Beattie and Lloyd Williams?? Really?

You can make a case for Beattie but not the other three IMO.

Tbf to Butler and his leaning towards Welsh players, there's a few Irish players who if fit would have pushed for selection e.g. POC, Ferris, Bowe, Zebo.

DeDoc

From having watched Gatland over the years, I know him to be ruthless and hard-nosed in selection, and also not afraid to (very) rapidly bring through someone who he thinks can do the business for him. He is also huge on work ethic, and 'character' (not the sort who knows lots of funny songs and drinking games - but people who engender respect through their efforts, leadership or calm). Don't forget that in addition to all the 6N games themselves (which are dominating most pundits selections) Gatty has been spending a week at a time in each camp, and has been watching HEC, Amlin and domestic league games closely all season. Don't be surprised, therefore, to see the odd 'bolter' as he'll have a good idea of the character and ability of a lot of players. You can also be sure that he'll pick a number of players not currently playing in the 6N if they have sufficient pedigree - O'Connell, Bowe, Hines would be examples.
Guys like Ashton, Hogg, Visser, Lamont etc are I believe going to miss out because of high profile defensive lapses. A few others (e.g. Tuilagi) bring enough to the table to cancel out such frailties.

The number (i.e. squad size) being talked about is 35 - which suggests two full teams plus extra specialists at 2,9 and 10, and then prop (could be one of the first 4) with some ability on both sides and a forward who can cover back and second row.

My guess would be:

Halfpenny, Bowe, North, Cuthbert, Brown, Zebo. Kearney could sneak in ahead of one of the last 3.
Davies, Roberts, O'Driscoll, Tuilagi
Sexton, Farrell, Phillips, Biggar, Care, Youngs
Healy, Jenkins, Corbisiero, Jones, Cole. Paul James may make it ahead of Corbisiero. Ryan Grant could be a 'bolter' ahead of either Jenkins or Corbisiero if there are less than 2 scots selected elsewhere.
Best, Youngs, Hibbard
Wynn-Jones, Evans, O'Connell, Hines, Hamilton
Robshaw, O'Brien, Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton, Ferris

That would be 15 Welsh, 9 Irish, 9 English and 2 Scots

Swiwi

DeDoc wrote: »

From having watched Gatland over the years, I know him to be ruthless and hard-nosed in selection, and also not afraid to (very) rapidly bring through someone who he thinks can do the business for him. He is also huge on work ethic, and 'character' (not the sort who knows lots of funny songs and drinking games - but people who engender respect through their efforts, leadership or calm). Don't forget that in addition to all the 6N games themselves (which are dominating most pundits selections) Gatty has been spending a week at a time in each camp, and has been watching HEC, Amlin and domestic league games closely all season. Don't be surprised, therefore, to see the odd 'bolter' as he'll have a good idea of the character and ability of a lot of players. You can also be sure that he'll pick a number of players not currently playing in the 6N if they have sufficient pedigree - O'Connell, Bowe, Hines would be examples.
Guys like Ashton, Hogg, Visser, Lamont etc are I believe going to miss out because of high profile defensive lapses. A few others (e.g. Tuilagi) bring enough to the table to cancel out such frailties.

The number (i.e. squad size) being talked about is 35 - which suggests two full teams plus extra specialists at 2,9 and 10, and then prop (could be one of the first 4) with some ability on both sides and a forward who can cover back and second row.

My guess would be:

Halfpenny, Bowe, North, Cuthbert, Brown, Zebo. Kearney could sneak in ahead of one of the last 3.
Davies, Roberts, O'Driscoll, Tuilagi
Sexton, Farrell, Phillips, Biggar, Care, Youngs
Healy, Jenkins, Corbisiero, Jones, Cole. Paul James may make it ahead of Corbisiero. Ryan Grant could be a 'bolter' ahead of either Jenkins or Corbisiero if there are less than 2 scots selected elsewhere.
Best, Youngs, Hibbard
Wynn-Jones, Evans, O'Connell, Hines, Hamilton
Robshaw, O'Brien, Faletau, Tipuric, Warburton, Ferris

That would be 15 Welsh, 9 Irish, 9 English and 2 Scots

Interesting Doc. I agree with much of what you write, however I would query how Brown makes the squad, the English back 3 were utterly blunt on attack throughout the 6N. I wouldn't have Brown near a SXV squad let alone the Lions. I agree that Phillips shot right back into contention after the weekend, albeit behind a dominant pack, and Biggar certainly had the best international game I've seen him play. I also don't understand the sudden love from several posters for Jim Hamilton - a few dodgy darts from Best combined with a few anticipated steals, and suddenly Hamilton's name is popping up everywhere, I think he is a journeyman, and I will be highly surprised if WG chooses him, in which case you can wave this post in my face! Lastly, it would be great if Ferris could travel, but I suspect his long line of injuries have removed him from consideration, Tipuric on the other hand was fantastic in the WE and has certainly gone up in my estimation.

As an aside, the Brumbies have been playing splendid rugby in the SXV, with a lot of no-name players - but that might change if they keep up this sort of form.

Swiwi

Thekidneybean wrote: »

Anyone think Madigan should travel?

No I don't. A few well-timed runs in a losing cause against Italy doesn't merit a Lions call-up. Madigan seems a promising player, but he's mainly a 10, and there are plenty of other options starting with Sexton. If there's one position where it's a huge risk taking a bolter it's 10, you need to be well & truly proven at test match level IMO. If you're suggesting he play at 12, I think WG will stick with the likes of Roberts, who had one of his better games on Saturday.

DeDoc

Swiwi wrote: »

Interesting Doc. I agree with much of what you write, however I would query how Brown makes the squad, the English back 3 were utterly blunt on attack throughout the 6N. I wouldn't have Brown near a SXV squad let alone the Lions. I agree that Phillips shot right back into contention after the weekend, albeit behind a dominant pack, and Biggar certainly had the best international game I've seen him play. I also don't understand the sudden love from several posters for Jim Hamilton - a few dodgy darts from Best combined with a few anticipated steals, and suddenly Hamilton's name is popping up everywhere, I think he is a journeyman, and I will be highly surprised if WG chooses him, in which case you can wave this post in my face! Lastly, it would be great if Ferris could travel, but I suspect his long line of injuries have removed him from consideration, Tipuric on the other hand was fantastic in the WE and has certainly gone up in my estimation.

As an aside, the Brumbies have been playing splendid rugby in the SXV, with a lot of no-name players - but that might change if they keep up this sort of form.

I'd agree with you on Brown - I don't really rate him that highly at all. However, he does (somewhat like McFadden) play bigger than his stats suggest - he is good at making ground in tight space when half-held in a tackle. He didn't do well on Saturday, but in general he has done alright. He is solid under the high ball, and can play full-back. He strikes me as the sort of grafter with positive attitude that Gatland likes. In some respects he makes it due to the lack of alternatives. I don't think Maitland has done enough. Visser is brutal in defence (and hence won't go). Hogg may get a token Scottish place, but he has been badly exposed several times in defence so far and his ability under the high ball is questionable also. Ironically, Ireland have a number of decent options (e.g. Gilroy, Trimble) who have an outside chance of forcing their way in, but Irelands dreadful 6N will limit how many Irish Gatland will feel comfortable selecting.
Hamilton isn't anything special, but he's had a solid 6N in fairness. One thing he brings is serious grunt, and there isn't a lot of that about right now in the other sides. In fact I think second row is actually quite weak by comparison. He is also Scottish, and given their finish ahead of Ireland, he'll have to give them some sort of nod.
Ferris is, like O'Connell and to some extent Bowe, one of those players who Gatland will gamble on - if fit (big if always in Ferris case) these are guys who are capable of turning a match, playing at a level that none of their home nations competitors can, and inspiring others to great things.

irishbucsfan

Jim Hamilton has been excellent all season for a very strong Gloucester team. He is no journeyman. He brings a lot to the table outside his line out play.

Dublin Red Devil

I agree Hamilton as earned a place on the tour. He may not start in the 1st 15 but he is worthy of being called a Lion

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jim Hamilton has been excellent all season for a very strong Gloucester team. He is no journeyman. He brings a lot to the table outside his line out play.

There is death, taxes, and the fact we never seem to agree on anything! However I don't watch the Guiness Premiership so I will defer to your greater knowledge of Hamilton's game!

Swiwi

DeDoc wrote: »

I'd agree with you on Brown - I don't really rate him that highly at all. However, he does (somewhat like McFadden) play bigger than his stats suggest - he is good at making ground in tight space when half-held in a tackle. He didn't do well on Saturday, but in general he has done alright. He is solid under the high ball, and can play full-back. He strikes me as the sort of grafter with positive attitude that Gatland likes. In some respects he makes it due to the lack of alternatives. I don't think Maitland has done enough. Visser is brutal in defence (and hence won't go). Hogg may get a token Scottish place, but he has been badly exposed several times in defence so far and his ability under the high ball is questionable also. Ironically, Ireland have a number of decent options (e.g. Gilroy, Trimble) who have an outside chance of forcing their way in, but Irelands dreadful 6N will limit how many Irish Gatland will feel comfortable selecting.
Hamilton isn't anything special, but he's had a solid 6N in fairness. One thing he brings is serious grunt, and there isn't a lot of that about right now in the other sides. In fact I think second row is actually quite weak by comparison. He is also Scottish, and given their finish ahead of Ireland, he'll have to give them some sort of nod.
Ferris is, like O'Connell and to some extent Bowe, one of those players who Gatland will gamble on - if fit (big if always in Ferris case) these are guys who are capable of turning a match, playing at a level that none of their home nations competitors can, and inspiring others to great things.

I agree Maitland hasn't done enough for Scotland...but that's more a reflection on Scottish back play than Maitland himself. However if WG considers his proven SXV form he may get a look in.

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

There is death, taxes, and the fact we never seem to agree on anything! However I don't watch the Guiness Premiership so I will defer to your greater knowledge of Hamilton's game!

Well he's busy in defense, a massive unit for clearing out and loves niggly stuff. He'd be perfect to play the Aussies. And we need a big unit on the tight 5.

Outside of Hines, Hamilton and Evans I'm not sure who else there is like that.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well he's busy in defense, a massive unit for clearing out and loves niggly stuff. He'd be perfect to play the Aussies. And we need a big unit on the tight 5.

Outside of Hines, Hamilton and Evans I'm not sure who else there is like that.

Cheers! I will be very intrigued to see if Gatland chooses outside the 6N teams (eg Hines). If I was the Lions management, I would be a bit wary of assuming the Aussie forward pack can be bullied off the ball, and basing a gameplan around that - you risk ending up with an English style gameplan, and Aussie certainly have backs to match Wales, and score tries (the team with the most success v Aussie in recent times is NZ (and Scotland ), not SA or England). The Aussie SXV teams are gradually being Polynesian-ised, and I expect they should be able to pick a few big units themselves.

toomevara

Swiwi wrote: »

I agree Maitland hasn't done enough for Scotland...but that's more a reflection on Scottish back play than Maitland himself. However if WG considers his proven SXV form he may get a look in.

This is absolutely the point. Folk get carried away with winning teams, 6N champs yada, yada, yada.... but the astute Lions coach needs to look at individuals. There are some very fine individuals plying their trade in mediocre teams and thus failing to showcase their true potential. This is most acute in the case of Scotland, but also very true of Ireland this year.Guys like Hogg, Visser, Laidlaw, Beattie and Hines must be seriously in the frame. I'd also love to see fellas like steffon armitage and nick easter, playing out of their skins but not in the frame for their own national set-ups considered..

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

Cheers! I will be very intrigued to see if Gatland chooses outside the 6N teams (eg Hines). If I was the Lions management, I would be a bit wary of assuming the Aussie forward pack can be bullied off the ball, and basing a gameplan around that - you risk ending up with an English style gameplan, and Aussie certainly have backs to match Wales, and score tries (the team with the most success v Aussie in recent times is NZ (and Scotland ), not SA or England). The Aussie SXV teams are gradually being Polynesian-ised, and I expect they should be able to pick a few big units themselves.

But you don't pick a guy like Hines or Hamilton in order to bully the opposition off the ball? That's the opposite reason for why I'd be picking guys like them.

Look who they've played for in recent years... Gloucester are playing some of the most open rugby in England and Hines was playing for Leinster when they were playing the best rugby in Europe, and Clermont are certainly capable of opening things up! Not a coincidence these teams rely on guys like these, they are absolutely necessary for winning quick ball and opening space in opposition defenses. They are purpose-built to keep attacking machines ticking over. Just like Thorny.

Who else would you pick at lock?

its_phil

I hate Hamilton, but that's probably why he should go. He can get under the skin of anyone very quickly. On top of that he was excellent in the 6N

English Lurker

DeDoc wrote: »

I'd agree with you on Brown - I don't really rate him that highly at all. However, he does (somewhat like McFadden) play bigger than his stats suggest - he is good at making ground in tight space when half-held in a tackle. He didn't do well on Saturday, but in general he has done alright. He is solid under the high ball, and can play full-back. He strikes me as the sort of grafter with positive attitude that Gatland likes. In some respects he makes it due to the lack of alternatives. I don't think Maitland has done enough. Visser is brutal in defence (and hence won't go). Hogg may get a token Scottish place, but he has been badly exposed several times in defence so far and his ability under the high ball is questionable also. Ironically, Ireland have a number of decent options (e.g. Gilroy, Trimble) who have an outside chance of forcing their way in, but Irelands dreadful 6N will limit how many Irish Gatland will feel comfortable selecting.

Mike Brown is a specialist full-back and I don't think anyone's played him at wing before Lancaster got it into his head for whatever reason. He's done a fair job there, but he is a great deal better at full-back, largely due to it not exposing his lack of pace. If he were to go on a Lions tour, it would have to be at full-back imo.

Buer

Hamilton can pack down on the tight or loosehead side. He is extremely athletic for a man of his bulk. He took apart Ryan, his direct competition, when they met. He destroyed the French lineout. Most importantly, he has shown arguably the best form of the locks throughout the 6N. Relative to the other fit options, he should absolutely be on the plane.

I think the idea that Ryan will make the squad is fanciful. He did not do himself justice at all in this tournament, running the worst set piece of any side and culminating in an ill disciplined show in Rome. For our line out specialist, he did not steal a single throw in 5 matches.

To continue on the loosehead lock discussion, Parling is a strong contender also. He showed great athleticism and energy throughout. He was one guy that still showed decently against Wales. Again, he comfortably outplayed Ryan when they met, putting big pressure on Irish throws and stealing a couple.

Of course, if a certain Young Munster player shows any form and proves his fitness in the next 3 weeks, I fully expect him to travel as first choice regardless of the above.

its_phil

Buer wrote: »

I think the idea that Ryan will make the squad is fanciful. He did not do himself justice at all in this tournament, running the worst set piece of any side and culminating in an ill disciplined show in Rome. For our line out specialist, he did not steal a single throw in 5 matches.

Winning 23 lineouts on your own throw is quite impressive by Ryan. He was let down by poor throwing by Best a good amount of the time.

RoundBox11

I always feel Hamilton is likely to do something really stupid. I reckon he will travel but I dont think he'd be first XV.

Although the only other 2nd rows who are guaranteed to travel imo are AWJ and Parling.