British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

CIARAN_BOYLE

its_phil wrote: »

Winning 23 lineouts on your own throw is quite impressive by Ryan. He was let down by poor throwing by Best a good amount of the time.

Calling 23 lineouts to yourself on your own throw in a pack featuring McCarthy (Connachts main man at lineout time) and POM who is a top quality jumper and Heaslip who is a decent average and tall enough for a backrow forward is pretty selfish imo.

More to the point he was out jumped a number of times when Best got the throw right but his opposite number was in the air in a good position and got the ball. Parling did it twice, Hamilton once and Parise and Pavenello.

Buer

its_phil wrote: »

Winning 23 lineouts on your own throw is quite impressive by Ryan. He was let down by poor throwing by Best a good amount of the time.

He called the ball on himself. I would expect him to win plenty doing that By the time Italy came along, they just tracked him and picked him off.

Best should absolutely take some blame but there was a lot of other factors too. Ryan was beaten in the air a few times against Italy. We were predictable.

On two or three throws this 6N, we didn't even put a man in the air. Systematic failure throughout and I would put the blame with Smal, Ryan and Best equally.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Buer wrote: »

On two or three throws this 6N, we didn't even put a man in the air. Systematic failure throughout and I would put the blame with Smal, Ryan and Best equally.

Not sure what happened there but they were in the Scotland match. From what I could tell Hamilton was calling out our calls and Best was responding as soon as he heard them not paying attention to who was making them.

its_phil

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Calling 23 lineouts to yourself on your own throw in a pack featuring McCarthy (Connachts main man at lineout time) and POM who is a top quality jumper and Heaslip who is a decent average and tall enough for a backrow forward is pretty selfish imo.

That is very true, but can anyone honestly see him calling the lineouts in Oz. I'd judge him for his ability to win lineouts, not call them. It would be someone like Hamilton, AWJ or POC doing it.

McCarthy should of been used more though, he is a very good jumper and Ryan was selfish but seen as it was let happen for 5 games I'd wonder was it Gert Smal's decision.

leonard7

i was surprised to see Shaun Edwards comment on how he almost quit rugby union after being left out of the lions tour to Australia, seems Gatland has already alienated himself from some of the wales coaching set up

thomond2006

leonard7 wrote: »

i was surprised to see Shaun Edwards comment on how he almost quit rugby union after being left out of the lions tour to Australia, seems Gatland has already alienated himself from some of the wales coaching set up

I was very surprised that Edwards said those things!

Swiwi

English Lurker wrote: »

Mike Brown is a specialist full-back and I don't think anyone's played him at wing before Lancaster got it into his head for whatever reason. He's done a fair job there, but he is a great deal better at full-back, largely due to it not exposing his lack of pace. If he were to go on a Lions tour, it would have to be at full-back imo.

No doubt! Israel Dagg is dire on the wing. Jeff Wilson was dire at FB (see RWC '99). The 2 positions aren't necessarily interchangeable. Has Brown done enough at domestic level to justify being selected as a specialist FB - not sure.

Swiwi

leonard7 wrote: »

i was surprised to see Shaun Edwards comment on how he almost quit rugby union after being left out of the lions tour to Australia, seems Gatland has already alienated himself from some of the wales coaching set up

It shows WG will choose who he thinks is best, and not just to please the Welsh. It's a promising sign IMO.

irishbucsfan

its_phil wrote: »

Winning 23 lineouts on your own throw is quite impressive by Ryan. He was let down by poor throwing by Best a good amount of the time.

Best was let down by terrible jumping and calls just as often. Particularly in the opposition 22 which is where all our problems were.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But you don't pick a guy like Hines or Hamilton in order to bully the opposition off the ball? That's the opposite reason for why I'd be picking guys like them.

Look who they've played for in recent years... Gloucester are playing some of the most open rugby in England and Hines was playing for Leinster when they were playing the best rugby in Europe, and Clermont are certainly capable of opening things up! Not a coincidence these teams rely on guys like these, they are absolutely necessary for winning quick ball and opening space in opposition defenses. They are purpose-built to keep attacking machines ticking over. Just like Thorny.

Who else would you pick at lock?

When I made my selection about 2-3 weeks ago now, I went with Parling & Gray. I know you're not enamoured of Gray, and while I agree his form hasn't been so good, he made my team on the basis WG would get the best out of him as a good coach. Obviously the Welsh locks have come back into contention. I like Hines, I would have no problem with him travelling, I would definitely take Hines ahead of Hamilton.

Have you settled on your wings by the way?

Principal Skinner

Swiwi wrote: »

It shows WG will choose who he thinks is best, and not just to please the Welsh. It's a promising sign IMO.

He didn't pick Schmidt who everyone knows is the best backs coach in Britain and Ireland....

Shaggy suggested on sky that it was because he was intimidated by joe and tbh I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't bring joe.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Best was let down by terrible jumping and calls just as often. Particularly in the opposition 22 which is where all our problems were.

I'd call int question Bests throwing under pressure, seems to let him down at crucial times, Ulsters HEC campaigns been characterised by lineouts going astray deep in the oppositions 22.

Swiwi

Principal Skinner wrote: »

He didn't pick Schmidt who everyone knows is the best backs coach in Britain and Ireland....

Shaggy suggested on sky that it was because he was intimidated by joe and tbh I can't see any other reason why he wouldn't bring joe.

Joe never strikes me as an intimidating guy! TBH, I have no problem with Schmidt being overlooked, I think the Lions should be about being British & Irish, as it is WG is of course Kiwi, and I don't really think it's in the spirit of the Lions to have a Kiwi coaching panel across the board.

Maybe Schmidt and Warren know each other from NZ and didn't see eye to eye. (It's off topic, but I am really hoping Schmidt & Cotter would recombine to coach the Highlanders next year...)

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

Joe never strikes me as an intimidating guy! TBH, I have no problem with Schmidt being overlooked, I think the Lions should be about being British & Irish, as it is WG is of course Kiwi, and I don't really think it's in the spirit of the Lions to have a Kiwi coaching panel across the board.

Maybe Schmidt and Warren know each other from NZ and didn't see eye to eye. (It's off topic, but I am really hoping Schmidt & Cotter would recombine to coach Ireland next year...)

Fixed

Joe does have another year at Leinster tho

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

Fixed

Joe does have another year at Leinster tho

That too! But I keep reading on this forum that he wants to head back to NZ...

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

That too! But I keep reading on this forum that he wants to head back to NZ...

His son is in 5th year so it would be logical for him to stay next year, and if he was to coach Ireland up to RWC 2015 it would only be an extra year... I'm going to clutch at straws and take his silence on the matter as a positive

its_phil

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Best was let down by terrible jumping and calls just as often. Particularly in the opposition 22 which is where all our problems were.

Against Scotland his throwing was abysmal in the first half. Check out 13:54 (youtube clock, not BBC) this is an underthrow. 27:52 crooked right and not even on our side as Heaslip has to overstretch. 36:30 is an overthrow albeit with a very poor pod but it has gone crooked on to the Scottish side again so it would have been hard to get regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssRJCyR63o

Thekidneybean

i think the 23 should be
15.halfpenny
14.Cuthbert
13.B.O'D
12.J.Davies
11.G.North
10.Sexton if he's fit but otherwise Owen farrell
9.B. Youngs
8.S. O'Brien
7.C.Robshaw
6.S.Warburton
5.G.Parling
4.A.W.Jones
3.A. Jones
2.R. Best
1. C. Healy

16.Hibbard
17.D.Cole
18.M.Ross
19.M.McCarthy
20.J.Tipuric
21.C.Murray
22.O.Farrell but if sexton is unfit he'll start and D.Biggar will be the replacement
23.S.Hogg
That's just my opinion and I just think that heaslip isn't playing aswell as the back rows iv named there. also didn't name anyone injured apart from sexton like POC Ferris, Zebo,Bowe or R. gray.

trouttrout

I'd have Biggar ahead of Farrell.

The thoughts of trying to rely on Farrell to get that backline going is depressing.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Swiwi wrote: »

That too! But I keep reading on this forum that he wants to head back to NZ...

He does but he just (september) extended contract to allow his son finish school here. Currently his son is in 5th year.

Fireball07

I haven't posted in this topic for a while, but things have changed a good bit. Depending on players coming back from injury, there could still be changes.

Full-Backs: Halfpenny, Hogg

Halfpenny is pretty much a certainty to start, I was really quite disappointed with Kearney over the course of the tournament. Goode and Brown are both good players, but I really like Hogg and think the fact that there mightn't be many Scottish players could count in his favour. He's very versatile too.

Wings: Cuthbert, North, Zebo, Maitland/Ashton/Bowe

If Zebo gets back to fitness and form, I really think he could go, there aren't that many standout players on the wing. Cuthbert and North are both likely to go, big and strong, good finishers. I'd have Maitland ahead of Visser, more secure defensively...Ashton isn't in unbelievable form but will score tries if given the chance. Bowe is probably unlikely due to injury, but is a well-rounded player. If Zebo doesn't make it, then Maitland and Ashton are both likely to go.

Centres: Tuilagi, BOD, Davies, (somebody else)

I think Tuilagi has to go, he's a very effective player but he has to play beside someone more creative. Brad Barritt can't go, he's just so limited..... I didn't think BOD was amazing in the 6N but if he's fit and playing well, he'll probably go, because there isn't anyone else. Davies didn't have the best championship but is a good option at 12 or 13. As for the last spot, there's always Roberts but I wouldn't like to see a Roberts/Tuilagi partnership (if BOD were to get injured), Marshall did well enough for Ireland but isn't guaranteed to start for Ulster, the Scottish centres are also fairly limited. Real chance of a wild card here imo...

Out-halves: Sexton, Farrell..... Laidlaw

Sexton has to go if fit because he's the best. Farrell also should go. Last spot between Biggar and Laidlaw, but I like Laidlaw, especially for his versatility.

Scrum-halves: Care, Youngs, Murray

I think the two English ones are the two best, Murray had a very good 6N and did his chances no harm. You could put Laidlaw here and bring Biggar too, I suppose. I wouldn't bring Phillips, I'd bring Williams ahead of him tbqh.

No. 8s: Faletau, Beattie

I guess..... I don't think either are amazing, and Heaslip still has a chance despite a poor enough campaign. The two mentioned did well enough but are a level below the genuinely top 8s like Parisse. I still think SOB could possibly play here.

Back-rows: SOB, Robshaw, Tipuric, Lydiate/Armitage/Brown/Warburton

SOB has to go, he was in great form and he's so versatile. Wasn't a massive fan of Robshaw but you can't argue with his performances and again, versatility is important. I rate Tipuric really highly and think he should start at 7. As for the last spot...I've been impressed with Armitage any time I've seen him but I don't know if Gatland will bring him. Lydiate, if fit, should go. Otherwise...Brown had a good campaign, and Warburton is still a real possibility.

Second-row: Parling, Launchbury, Evans/Ryan/Hamilton/Jones

I was very impressed with the 2 English locks tbh, and both will probably go even if they don't start. I still think Ryan is an excellent player, one of the best lineout jumpers around. Evans and Jones are both impressive too, and Hamilton did a great job for Scotland, even if I don't think he's actually on the same level of the others. He does his job effectively though. (I'm still hoping POC comes back in great form and gets picked....but it's unlikely)

Tighthead Props: Jones, Cole... Murray

Jones and Cole are pretty much nailed on. I think 3 THs should go and I couldn't think of anyone else beyond Murray.

Hookers: Hibbard, Best, Youngs

I think those 3 are fair enough...

Loosehead Props: Healy, Jenkins, Marler/Sheridan


Healy has to go, Jenkins was good...toss-up for the last spot, Sheridan has been ignored for England but is a good scrummager and is possibly deserving. Marler or maybe even Vunipola/James otherwise.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fireball07 wrote: »

Centres: Tuilagi, BOD, Davies, (somebody else)

I think Tuilagi has to go, he's a very effective player but he has to play beside someone more creative. Brad Barritt can't go, he's just so limited..... I didn't think BOD was amazing in the 6N but if he's fit and playing well, he'll probably go, because there isn't anyone else. Davies didn't have the best championship but is a good option at 12 or 13. As for the last spot, there's always Roberts but I wouldn't like to see a Roberts/Tuilagi partnership (if BOD were to get injured), Marshall did well enough for Ireland but isn't guaranteed to start for Ulster, the Scottish centres are also fairly limited. Real chance of a wild card here imo...

With Wallace out for the rest of the season due to injuries he is.

I agree Tuilagi with someone creative as a center partnership. I'm wondering if Farrell might play center as well as outhalf or flood/hook might get to go as a 10/12 to get someone creative in the centers.

It wasn't a great six nations for creative centers. Neither the Welsh or English centers are patricularly creative. England used a creative 15 but I wouldn't want to see the Lions go down that road. As a pure 15 without his ability to act as an extra playmaker Goode wouldn't be one of England's best two 15s.

irishbucsfan

Farrell in the center is a very interesting shout! A midfield of Sexton, Tuilagi and Farrell?

jamiedav2011

I keep hearing that Heaslip has had a poor campaign, but taking away the captaincy, has he really?
Mixed maybe, but hardly poor and given the tactics and way he plays, he's hampered by being at the bottom of rucks and not being as visible.

Fireball07

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

With Wallace out for the rest of the season due to injuries he is.

I agree Tuilagi with someone creative as a center partnership. I'm wondering if Farrell might play center as well as outhalf or flood/hook might get to go as a 10/12 to get someone creative in the centers.

It wasn't a great six nations for creative centers. Neither the Welsh or English centers are patricularly creative. England used a creative 15 but I wouldn't want to see the Lions go down that road. As a pure 15 without his ability to act as an extra playmaker Goode wouldn't be one of England's best two 15s.

Oh, I forgot about that.


Well, what we have to hope for then is that Ulster win the Heineken Cup with Marshall playing a massive role.

Tuilagi-BOD or in-form Marshall-Tuilagi would be a nice centre partnership. (Or even Marshall-BOD)

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

When I made my selection about 2-3 weeks ago now, I went with Parling & Gray. I know you're not enamoured of Gray, and while I agree his form hasn't been so good, he made my team on the basis WG would get the best out of him as a good coach. Obviously the Welsh locks have come back into contention. I like Hines, I would have no problem with him travelling, I would definitely take Hines ahead of Hamilton.

I think Parling is just a slightly less effective version of the guys we were talking about though (Hines, Hamilton, Evans). I'm not convinced by him at all.

I think Gray could possibly be a good choice but I think that it would take a huge turnaround in form. I think we have better options amongst the loosehead locks. Even Paul O'Connell for instance. Launchbury for me in that position, possibly Wyn Jones or Ryan.

Have you settled on your wings by the way?

Nope! I just can't choose at the moment... One of the Welsh monstrosities for sure anyway.

Cardinal Richelieu

Thekidneybean wrote: »

i think the 23 should be
15.halfpenny
14.Cuthbert
13.B.O'D
12.J.Davies
11.G.North
10.Sexton if he's fit but otherwise Owen farrell
9.B. Youngs
8.S. O'Brien
7.C.Robshaw
6.S.Warburton
5.G.Parling
4.A.W.Jones
3.A. Jones
2.R. Best
1. C. Healy

16.Hibbard
17.D.Cole
18.M.Ross
19.M.McCarthy
20.J.Tipuric
21.C.Murray
22.O.Farrell but if sexton is unfit he'll start and D.Biggar will be the replacement
23.S.Hogg
That's just my opinion and I just think that heaslip isn't playing aswell as the back rows iv named there. also didn't name anyone injured apart from sexton like POC Ferris, Zebo,Bowe or R. gray.

Who is your Loosehead on the bench?

Tigerandahalf

Gray would be going as the loosehead second row, or the man to dominate the lineout. However his strengths are not in the lineout. He is typical of many flashy players who make swashbuckling runs thay catch the eye of fans. I would much prefer to take D Ryan. I dont think he has got credit here in Ireland for the great job he did in the lineout. Much of the failings in the lineout were down to Best's poor throwing. For me he has been Ire player of the championship. He also has been carrying a shoulder injury. I also think he uses his talents effectively, catching in the lineout and making tackles. Unlike Paul OConnell he doesnt take on ball which is sensible given he doesnt have the bulk.

AW Jones and Hines would be a very strong partnership.

schools rugby

James Hook as a wildcard to go ?

Swiwi

And the Australians have spoken! Or at least www.rugbyheaven.com.au (bookmark this if you want to get the Australian view of the Lions Series - it includes columnists such as John Eales & Matt Burke)

1. Cian Healy (Ireland)
2. Richard Hibbard (Wales)
3. Adam Jones (Wales)
4. Alun Wyn-Jones (Wales)
5. Geoff Parling (England)
6. Tom Wood (England)
7. Sam Warburton (Wales)
8. Toby Faletau (Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Wales)
10. Jonny Sexton (Ireland)
11. George North (Wales)
12. Manu Tuilagi (England)
13. Brian O’Driscoll [c] (Ireland)
14. Sean Maitland (Scotland)
15. Leigh Halfpenny (Wales)
Reserves: Rory Best (Ireland), Dan Cole (England), Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Joe Launchbury (England), Sean O’Brien (Ireland), Ben Youngs (England), Owen Farrell (England), Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/bulk-squared-lions-simple-equation-20130318-2gar7.html