British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

jm08

.ak wrote: »

You're confusing players with tactics. It doesn't matter who's first receiver, Ireland have the ball-carrying aspect of them game completely wrong to suit the modern game. You won't make ground by setting up pod after pod of forwards and running straight. You need dynamic runners to pick lines, dummy runs, feints, and drifting.

It's well and good when POC or AN Other absorbs a few defenders, but if there's nothing done after that but another pod attacking the line it's a waste.

Our backs don't have the physicallity to play that kind of game at international level that Leinster can play (note Leinster brought in Brad Thorn to help out).

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

I can think of at least 10 outstanding performances that BOD has had for Ireland and I can think of only 2/3 for Leinster (that time against Bourgoine is one of them).

I think it's safe to say, you haven't watched Leinster all that much if you think that's the case. There have been entire seasons where he was absolutely outstanding for Leinster.

jacothelad

sock puppet wrote: »

From what I remember Ford is awful and Rees wasn't really rated until he actually played in the series. Funny looking back.

Fixed.

bilston wrote: »

That 2nd test was one of the greatest test matches of recent years. Shaw was outstanding, Kearney imperious and BOD was a real leader with total disregard for his own body.

Shaw also gave away two brain dead penalties from which the Lions conceded 6 points. I think a fair bit of revisionism has gone into his participation during the tour.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you think Sexton can't get as much out of Ireland's back line as he can Leinster's?

Murray. Tactics.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

I think it's safe to say, you haven't watched Leinster all that much if you think that's the case. There have been entire seasons where he was absolutely outstanding for Leinster.

I think its safe to say you don't know what my criteria is. Different standards for blokes like Brian O'Driscoll. An average BOD is an outstanding someone else.

GerM

jm08 wrote: »

I think its safe to say you don't know what my criteria is. Different standards for blokes like Brian O'Driscoll. An average BOD is an outstanding someone else.

No other person can move goalposts as regularly and as quickly to try and facilitate an asinine point.

jm08

GerM wrote: »

No other person can move goalposts as regularly and as quickly to try and facilitate an asinine point.

You might try and do what I do (better for your health) and just not respond to points that you think are asinine

PS - I still think BOD has pulled out massive performances for Ireland - maybe he just didn't need to do it for Leinster.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

You might try and do what I do (better for your health) and just not respond to points that you think are asinine

nobody would talk to you then jm08.

(hint hint, nudge nudge, wink wink)

nc6000

bamboozle wrote: »

its down to tactics - Leinster play the modern game with the outhalf standing flat & attacking the gain line.

Kidney has Ireland playing 1990's rugby with the outhalf sitting deep behind the gain line hoofing the ball to the opposition back 3.

Kidney also came up with the brilliant idea of having a very poor ball carrier (cough cough Paulie) carrying a huge amount of ball to no effect - while having very good ball carriers clearing out rucks when they should be carrying.

What's stopping the players ignoring what Kidney tells them and playing their own game? Surely they are experienced enough to know that his game plan is rubbish and the way they play with their provinces is generally light years ahead of the way Ireland play.

nc6000

nc6000 wrote: »

What's stopping the players ignoring what Kidney tells them and playing their own game? Surely they are experienced enough to know that his game plan is rubbish and the way they play with their provinces is generally light years ahead of the way Ireland play.

well apparently that's exactly what Reddan did in 6N 2011 vs England.

Hasn't worn green very often since

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

nobody would talk to you then jm08.

(hint hint, nudge nudge, wink wink)

Okay enough of off-topic stuff please folks.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

well apparently that's exactly what Reddan did in 6N 2011 vs England.

Hasn't worn green very often since

He hardly wore it before either :pac:

I think that game against the ABs in '10 (when O'Leary was out, had more to do with his lack of time in the green shirt than any of his good performances.

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

well apparently that's exactly what Reddan did in 6N 2011 vs England.

Hasn't worn green very often since

He hardly wore it before either :pac:

I think that game against the ABs in '10 (when O'Leary was out, had more to do with his lack of time in the green shirt than any of his good performances.

No, he hasn't been picked because Kidney is the coach and Kidney refuses to pick him, because he's a sh1t coach.

In the hope of getting back on topic, who would people tip for the SH spots? Think Philips and Youngs are pretty certain but then? Personally I'd go with Care, but Knoyle could come into the reckoning if he can get some game time with Wales.

bamboozle

jm08 wrote: »

first of all, I doubt if Kidney tells Sexton where to stand. O'Gara was standing a lot flatter than Sexton during the 6Ns, so I doubt if Kidney tells O'Gara to stand flat and Sexton to stand deep.

Secondly, Ireland doesn't hoff the ball as some would like to make out. That was a feature of Rob Kearney's play before his injury.

Thirdly, the reason why Paul O'Connell carries so much is because he sucks in defenders (giving space to the backs) and he rarely if ever turns over ball.

Do you think Ireland are better off without O'Connell then considering he is such a poor ball carrier?

The coach tells our outhalf where to sit when attacking - its quite evident that sexton sits much deeper for Ireland.
We kicked the ball more than any other team in the 6n's just gone.
I'm not sure if you watch POC carrying the ball or have ever played rugby but ball carrying is quiet simple, the ball carrier hits the gainline at speed and takes contact in a low position faciliting quick ruck ball presentation. POC stands still taking passes and enters contact far to vertically which results in very slow ruck ball & little ground gained.

slow ruck ball = time for opposition defenders to realign


POC is a great player, a huge player to have leading a pack, but he's just a poor carrier.

http://dementedmole.com/2011/09/13/what-is-to-be-done-with-this-paul-oconnell-and-his-carries/

irishbucsfan

When Reddan came on against Italy, Sexton went from standing very deep to standing quite flat and the backline was unleashed. I think some of Sexton's hesitations in possession for Ireland are very much down to having a misfiring 9 beisde him. Murray's delivery is completely inconsistent. Another example of this is how flat ROG and Sexton were against NZ in the one good test.

There was one phase against Italy that stood out to me in particular. We had an overlap and Sexton was screaming for the ball but it didn't come. When it came the pass was well behind his inside shoulder. He had to adjust to catch it which allowed the Italian defensive line to push up on top of him. He then adjusted and just kicked it away, and it was a useless kick as well.

We tend to look good when we get good performances at scrum half. IE, England 2011, Australia 2011, second half against Italy this year, against France this year and the one time against New Zealand this summer. If they cop on and start using Reddan until Murray has the experience to deliver more consistent performances then I think we'll see a lot of benefit.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'd even entertain the idea of that clause to be honest. Can you imagine if Botha/Nacewa/Muller wanted to leave their Irish province to play for someone else if the province got to the HEC final?

Well obviously that's something that the player and club would have to consider before agreeing to any contract. If the club doesn't agree to it then the player has a decision to make. Take the money to play in France or play for the Lions. I wouldn't criticise a player for making the a decision one way or the other.

We see it at the moment with Pienaar and Ulster, taking into account the Rugby Championship and then the Autumn Internationals Ulster will be missing Pienaar for 25% of the season, Ulster have obviously agreed to this, whether it is written into Pienaar's contract or not I don't know but if a club wants a player badly enough they'll make a concession. Obviously the difference between the Pienaar situation and the one in France is that RP is missing 6 or 7 early season Pro 12 matches rather than any final.

thomond2006

I'd say Ulster are probably paying a percentage of Pienaar's wage while he's away. Wouldn't Pienaar be getting match fees from the SARU anyway?

ray jay

Deleted User wrote: »

nc6000 wrote: »

What's stopping the players ignoring what Kidney tells them and playing their own game? Surely they are experienced enough to know that his game plan is rubbish and the way they play with their provinces is generally light years ahead of the way Ireland play.

well apparently that's exactly what Reddan did in 6N 2011 vs England.

Hasn't worn green very often since

Kidney's a lame duck at this stage, it won't have much impact on the players if they decide to use a game plan that plays to their strengths in the 6 Nations.

totallegend wrote: »

In the hope of getting back on topic, who would people tip for the SH spots? Think Philips and Youngs are pretty certain but then? Personally I'd go with Care, but Knoyle could come into the reckoning if he can get some game time with Wales.

We know Murray is going to get a lot of game time between now and the Lions tour, and hopefully with the new coaching staff in Munster we can see enough of an improvement in his performance to at least be in with a shout.

jm08

bamboozle wrote: »

The coach tells our outhalf where to sit when attacking - its quite evident that sexton sits much deeper for Ireland.

We kicked the ball more than any other team in the 6n's just gone.
I'm not sure if you watch POC carrying the ball or have ever played rugby but ball carrying is quiet simple, the ball carrier hits the gainline at speed and takes contact in a low position faciliting quick ruck ball presentation. POC stands still taking passes and enters contact far to vertically which results in very slow ruck ball & little ground gained.

I'd expect an international outhalf to play what is in front of him. Its up to the outhalf to get the team into the right areas of the pitch. He needs to be a good decision maker, and not a puppet. He needs to be able to think on his feet and change the gameplan if its not working.

Rob Penney is a good talker on the subject - worth listening to him at the moment. Everyone keeps asking him what the gameplan is and he generally replies about players making good decisions and playing what is in front of them and being confident. From that I glean that he doesn't tells Ian Keatley where to stand and I doubt if he told Doug Howlett to kick as much as he did against Edinburgh last weekend.

slow ruck ball = time for opposition defenders to realign

POC is a great player, a huge player to have leading a pack, but he's just a poor carrier.

http://dementedmole.com/2011/09/13/what-is-to-be-done-with-this-paul-oconnell-and-his-carries/

He maybe a poor carrier, but he might be the best we've got. I didn't see too many candidates putting their hands up to replace him when he has been out injured.

I see the demented mole attracted a lot of commets (not) - hopefully getting all of that off his chest has helped him.

edit: do you have a link for the kicking stats please? I'd be interested in having a look.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

He maybe a poor carrier, but he might be the best we've got. I didn't see too many candidates putting their hands up to replace him when he has been out injured.

He certainly isn't by a long way. His strengths are many and varied - carrying the ball isn't one. He is pretty useless at it at international level. It really isn't carrying the ball in his case, it's catching it and falling over.

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

He maybe a poor carrier, but he might be the best we've got.

WHAT!?

If you actually believe this then I can 100% say you have never seen a game of rugby in your life. I'm pretty sure you don't even know what the shape of a rugby ball looks like.

Seriously, are you having a joke? Or are you just a really bad troll?

I've seen some utter tripe spouted by people on this forum but this absolutely takes the biscuit.

For all his many, many strengths carrying a ball quite simply isn't one of them. It's not even worth getting in a debate with you about it because it is completely self evident.

Cpt_Blackbeard

jacothelad wrote: »

He certainly isn't by a long way. His strengths are many and varied - carrying the ball isn't one. He is pretty useless at it at international level. It really isn't carrying the ball in his case, it's catching it and falling over.

He is used close in to carry up slow ball and turn it into quick ball. Other than Healy, I wouldn't say we've anyone significantly better than POC in this regard.

yimrsg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He is used close in to carry up slow ball and turn it into quick ball. Other than Healy, I wouldn't say we've anyone significantly better than POC in this regard.

SOB and Ferris for starters. Best and Heaslip are probably better too as they're definitely more mobile. POC isn't a good or effective ball carrier, he's an all too willing one but it's to the detriment of the team.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He is used close in to carry up slow ball and turn it into quick ball. Other than Healy, I wouldn't say we've anyone significantly better than POC in this regard.

When he's used like that it's more understandable (even though he's not the best we have at that), it's when he pops up in midfield and he just kills momentum is when it's really frustrating.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He is used close in to carry up slow ball and turn it into quick ball. Other than Healy, I wouldn't say we've anyone significantly better than POC in this regard.

Mike Ross is possibly the only worse player at this role in most people's starting pack.

Rugby Club on SS2 right now.

They're begging for Schmidt to be involved

lol, Barnes putting Robshaw forward as captain!

Strauss being touted as a bolter. Best to be the starting hooker in their opinion.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

Rugby Club on SS2 right now.

They're begging for Schmidt to be involved

lol, Barnes putting Robshaw forward as captain!

Gatland mentioned him as a possibility

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

He certainly isn't by a long way. His strengths are many and varied - carrying the ball isn't one. He is pretty useless at it at international level. It really isn't carrying the ball in his case, it's catching it and falling over.

So who is at international level - can't remember any outstanding carries from anyone in the last 5 internationals that he wasn't playing in.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

So who is at international level - can't remember any outstanding carries from anyone in the last 5 internationals that he wasn't playing in.

Healy, quite clearly.

GerM

And Ryan, Best and Cronin from the front 5.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

So who is at international level - can't remember any outstanding carries from anyone in the last 5 internationals that he wasn't playing in.

Well in Ireland just about any forward with the exception of Ross and he isn't any worse.