British and Irish Lions Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Buer

Swiwi wrote: »

Captain might even already be involved in team selection etc. I'm sure POC secured his place on the plane yesterday, but it might be too little too late for the captain's armband. I rather suspect it's either BOD or a Welshie, but we'll see.

I was going to say that, alright. We know BOD was involved in selection in 2005 (Olly Smith). I'm fairly sure POC would have had a say in 2009. The captain needs to be established to have an input into proceedings.

shuffol

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Players like Shane Willians would beg to differ

Shane Williams was extremely powerful and allied to his size was very hard to stop unless you managed to tackle him front on, It's just something I've noticed when watching Zebo this season, there's been numerous occasions where defenders have been stretching to make tackles that I'd expect Zebo to be able to power through but he hasnt.

Fireball07

The problem with the captaincy this time is there aren't really many people who would be seen as certain starters. I mean, even BOD isn't a definite. Alun Wyn Jones could be a good captain, but is he one of the best 2 locks in Britain and Ireland. Is he even in the top 4? He may be...but there are a lot of good players there, not sure if any stand out- Parling, Launchbury, Jones, POC, Ryan, Hamilton, etc.


As for Zebo, I think he's surprisingly powerful. He mightn't have the same leg drive as someone like D'Arcy but watch him, in particular, when he claims restarts. He almost always powers on a few more metres than you'd expect him to, with 3 players trying to bring him down.

Swiwi

Fireball07 wrote: »

The problem with the captaincy this time is there aren't really many people who would be seen as certain starters. I mean, even BOD isn't a definite. Alun Wyn Jones could be a good captain, but is he one of the best 2 locks in Britain and Ireland. Is he even in the top 4? He may be...but there are a lot of good players there, not sure if any stand out- Parling, Launchbury, Jones, POC, Ryan, Hamilton, etc.


As for Zebo, I think he's surprisingly powerful. He mightn't have the same leg drive as someone like D'Arcy but watch him, in particular, when he claims restarts. He almost always powers on a few more metres than you'd expect him to, with 3 players trying to bring him down.

Can't say I've ever been focussed on "leg-drive" when weighing up wingers. I guess if you're Lomu (or Savea) it's handy, but other wingers like the aforementioned Williams, Cory Jane, Joe Rococoko etc relied/rely on speed, swerve etc rather than pure leg-drive. I guess it's useful, but I wouldn't not pick a winger because of perceived lack of leg-drive.

Pudsy33

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Madigan is going to end up on the plane. He's in excellent form and offers something totally different.

justsomebloke

The problem for Madigan is that he just doesn't have enough big game experience at 10 to warrant bringing him on the Lions tour so can't see it happening.

shuffol

Swiwi wrote: »

Can't say I've ever been focussed on "leg-drive" when weighing up wingers. I guess if you're Lomu (or Savea) it's handy, but other wingers like the aforementioned Williams, Cory Jane, Joe Rococoko etc relied/rely on speed, swerve etc rather than pure leg-drive. I guess it's useful, but I wouldn't not pick a winger because of perceived lack of leg-drive.

It's not strictly leg drive that I'm referring to, it's the ability to break away from overstretched tacklers which I think Zebo lacks, its probably got a lot to do with his running style in that he almost seems to glide across the turf as opposed to pumping the legs like a lot of wings.

Pudsy33

There's always an outsider who gets a shot. Granted someone like Biggar would be more accomplished, but if things aren't going to plan he's not a gamechanger. Madigan absolutely is. Anyway probably wishful thinking on my part. Someday I hope to see a Madigan/Cooper showdown!

.ak

justsomebloke wrote: »

The problem for Madigan is that he just doesn't have enough big game experience at 10 to warrant bringing him on the Lions tour so can't see it happening.

Yeah, but by definition a bolter generally will have very little game experience at this level at all.

Madigan going is wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened.

Swiwi

justsomebloke wrote: »

The problem for Madigan is that he just doesn't have enough big game experience at 10 to warrant bringing him on the Lions tour so can't see it happening.

Despite the romance of the idea (especially to Leinster supporters) I don't see it happening either. There's no way he's ready to play a test match of this intensity, so would you take him as a mid-weeker, essentially as a development tour? Don't think so. Between Sexton, Farrell, Biggar, Flood, even Hook or Wilkinson, there is plenty of experienced players to choose from. Still, as many have pointed out, stranger things have happened, but 10 is a critical position to take a risk on a bolter, it's not the same as taking a novice winger for example.

totallegend

The difference between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere is that the Wallabies would take a chance on Madigan.

We're so afraid of failure that it prevents us from succeeding, we look for excuses not to back players. Not enough experience, hasn't shown enough "game management" etc etc.

Why not bring him? He'd be third-choice out-half so it's not like the success of the tour would depend on him but maybe the hard ground and fast ball is tailor-made for someone like Madigan, he might be exactly what the Lions need for a bit of X-Factor.

I think the value of bringing Owen Farrell is zero given that chances are Halfpenny will be there to kick the goals. What would Farrell add in terms of creativity or getting the most out of what should be a pretty handy backline?

Fireball07

Farrell will almost certainly go. If he didn't, the uproar in the English media would be absolutely enormous.

jimjamcos

totallegend wrote: »

The difference between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere is that the Wallabies would take a chance on Madigan.

We're so afraid of failure that it prevents us from succeeding, we look for excuses not to back players. Not enough experience, hasn't shown enough "game management" etc etc.

Why not bring him? He'd be third-choice out-half so it's not like the success of the tour would depend on him but maybe the hard ground and fast ball is tailor-made for someone like Madigan, he might be exactly what the Lions need for a bit of X-Factor.

I think the value of bringing Owen Farrell is zero given that chances are Halfpenny will be there to kick the goals. What would Farrell add in terms of creativity or getting the most out of what should be a pretty handy backline?

Yea agree. Defeats the very purpose of the Lions bringing/playing Farrell. What's the point is assembling the best attackers of the home nations and putting a limited, one-dimensional pilot in charge of them?

Give it a lash Gatland and make the Lions exciting like they should be. Sexton, Bigger (lack of alternatives) and Madigan are the way to go.

toomevara

.ak wrote: »

Madigan going is wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened.

Maybe, but the more I see of him the more I like him. he's a beautifully balanced player and a very, very fine kicker of the ball. i also really, really like his attitude on the field and the way he carries himself..bit ephemeral I know, but I wouldn't be massively surprised if Gatland gives him the call. I think He's very much in the Gatland mould, way more so than Farrell for example...

Grimebox

Bringing the 3rd (possibly 4th) choice Ireland OH over the 1st choice England OH.... riiiight

Buer

Lions are there to win, Barbarians are there to entertain. Farrell will go simply because it's the pragmatic choice. He's a solid player that kicks well and works hard. He's not someone that's going to light up a game but he can pass well despite lacking inventiveness. His solid experience at 12 and 13 also makes him a handy tourist if people are dropping like flies which they generally are near the end.

Also, Biggar is as rigid an outhalf as there is in these islands. He might well travel but he's certainly no flash showman.

.ak

Grimebox wrote: »

Bringing the 3rd (possibly 4th) choice Ireland OH over the 1st choice England OH.... riiiight

What does that have to do with anything? Some coaches prefer different types of players. Right now I'd say Madigan is a better OH than Farrell, who relies on a monster pack to protect him, and Madigan has a lot of improving to go as well.

totallegend

Grimebox wrote: »

Bringing the 3rd (possibly 4th) choice Ireland OH over the 1st choice England OH.... riiiight

Nobody is saying that Farrell won't go.

My point is that his value to a team is in kicking goals which is not needed if Halfpenny is there. He's not going to get the backs moving at all. So I wouldn't bring him, but gatland will.

P.Walnuts

.ak wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything? Some coaches prefer different types of players. Right now I'd say Madigan is a better OH than Farrell, who relies on a monster pack to protect him, and Madigan has a lot of improving to go as well.

I think we need to take into account that we are always going to talk up our own players possibly too much?

How would we react to english fella's talking up Burns or Welsh talking up Patchell as a potential bolter?

LuckyLloyd

.ak wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything? Some coaches prefer different types of players. Right now I'd say Madigan is a better OH than Farrell, who relies on a monster pack to protect him, and Madigan has a lot of improving to go as well.

Don't think a Lion's selection should be in anyway concerned with future development. Madigan could well be out of the game in four years. A once every four years event is the definition of something where "win now" should be the overarching philosophy.

Madigan should only travel if it is deemed that he provides a better current option than other eligible outhalfs.

Grimebox

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I think we need to take into account that we are always going to talk up our own players possibly too much?

How would we react to english fella's talking up Burns or Welsh talking up Patchell as a potential bolter?

Thats what I was getting at. If people here were sarries fans and had been watching Farrell all season, the arguments would be very different; Madigan wouldn't even be close to consideration.

The fact that Madigan is 3rd choice Ireland OH is indicative of how he is perceived to a wider audience. I think Farrell gets talked down a lot on this forum. Frankly, I haven't seen much of him but he can't be as bad and uninventive as people are making him out to be considering he will be in a HEC SF and almost won a grand slam.

justsomebloke

totallegend wrote: »

We're so afraid of failure that it prevents us from succeeding, we look for excuses not to back players. Not enough experience, hasn't shown enough "game management" etc etc.

As I said already the problem for Madigan is the lack of Big game time, so far this season he has 8 minutes of International rugby and 10 minutes of HEC rugby at 10. That is far too little to be picking a Lion from.

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I think we need to take into account that we are always going to talk up our own players possibly too much?

How would we react to english fella's talking up Burns or Welsh talking up Patchell as a potential bolter?

TBH Burns and Patchell are both exciting prospects, in the same vein as Madigan. I'd personally be excited if either of them were named as bolters.

I like to think I can step back from my biased views and look at the situation as a whole...

For example, I think none of the above will get on the plane, certainly not, however I still think they're all potentially better OHs than Farrell.

justsomebloke

P.Walnuts wrote: »

How would we react to english fella's talking up Burns or Welsh talking up Patchell as a potential bolter?

Actually I would be less surprised with Patchell being picked over Madigan as he has had some good HEC games especially when you consider how bad a team he is in

Swiwi

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I think we need to take into account that we are always going to talk up our own players possibly too much?

How would we react to english fella's talking up Burns or Welsh talking up Patchell as a potential bolter?

I agree. I think Madigan looks a great prospect. But his form is basically Rabo-based. I don't see Gatland whisking him out of the Rabo into a Lions test match, much like the ABs would not take a 10 out of ITM cup and put him in charge of the team for a Lions series. You prove yourself at HEC (NH) and SXV (SH) as well as internationally of course, and due to Sexton, Madigan has not really featured at this level yet. It's one thing to play Wasps, it's another to play Australia. I've read a few mutterings about his habit of missing touch from penalties, and these little errors get magnified on the big stage. Maybe WG will take a calculated gamble, but it risks backfiring in an unproven player, and you can bet your bottom dollar the English media would let him know all about it, and then some, if Madigan went ahead of Farrell and had a 'mare.

danthefan

Only thing about Madigan is he's been able to take the step up to whatever level necessary. He's never looked out of his depth. He's obviously not going to be in contention for the first team but if he went on tour (and I don't think he will for the record) I'm completely confident he'd be well able for the midweek games.

But if two flyhalves go it should be Sexton and Farrell. If three go and Gatland fancies a bolter then why not sure.

Tox56

I think Burns has been a bit off the boil recently but if he had kept up his form/been on fire in recent weeks he would have had a decent argument for travelling as a wildcard option, Madigans a long way behind where he is tho

irishbucsfan

I think saying Madigan is better than Farrell is a bit much. Madigan has a lot to prove yet

schools rugby

Outhalf is a major problem for the Lions. Sexton is the only world class 10 at the moment (Farrell and Wilkinson world class kickers before anyone says it) .
If Sexton gets injured again and is missing I would be very worried . If Biggar and Farrell go i would be worried . Id rather see somebody like Hook , Patchell or Madigan as a third choice 10 .

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think saying Madigan is better than Farrell is a bit much. Madigan has a lot to prove yet

Not sure if anyone said that?