Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

lazygal

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I guess the constitution experts are biased. The no side continues to be oppressed.

I guarantee they'll wheel out a William Binchy type who'll try to befuddle us all with their legal wizardry and confuse the issues.

Zubeneschamali

fisgon wrote: »

BTW, anyone know the background of Mothers and Fathers matter, or of this Dr. Finnegan himself?

From their website: Dr Thomas Finegan. Thomas publishes in the areas of areas of human rights law and legal and moral philosophy, and is a public policy advisor to Family & Life.

Googling about, "Dr Finegan is, a founding member of Catholic Comment; working alongside Ronan Mullen (Director) and David Quinn (Expert/Consultant). Other personages noted on Catholic Comment website include Breda O’Brien, Maria Steen and Lorcan Price.

Dr Tom Finegan, was Ronan Mullen’s previous Parliamentary Assistant, as evidenced at this Facebook acknowledgement: “Sen. Ronan Mullen has had to cancel, a last minute-cancellation. He is sending his Parliamentary Assistant Tom Finegan. He’s a PHD candidate in the area of medicine in Trinity College Dublin and will give a robust proposal of the Pro-Life Argument.”


But actually, he has a PhD in Law.

The Black Oil

A letter to the Irish Catholic taking Quinn to task fairly robustly.

There is no doubt that had it not been for the marriage referendum, we would not have had so many public discussions about how Ireland treats gay people, or the nature of civil marriage. Whatever the result of the marriage referendum, it has been a healthy exercise for people who are gay, and their families, to discuss their lives. It has also been an opportunity for others to hear the stories of people whose lives might never have been heard.

Nobody is being forced to do, say or believe anything in this debate. Everyone’s vote will be equally valid and equally secret. And nobody – especially David Quinn who has been a vocal contributor to the debate – is being silenced, marginalised or ignored by a militant liberal lobby.

Dissent, rather than being banned, is being encouraged. Mr Quinn is, however, being challenged. His assertions about reports and studies are rightly being checked and his opinions are being held up to scrutiny. This is the benefit of taking part in a public referendum debate.

David Quinn is incorrect when he says that a militant social liberalism is forcing people to approve and celebrate the “lifestyle choices” of others (IC 09/04/2015). What the referendum is about is whether civil marriage is available to all consenting adults. It does not require anyone to attend a marriage, endorse it or celebrate it; merely that civil marriage is an option for those gay people who choose to avail of it.

fisgon

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

From their website: Dr Thomas Finegan.

Googling about, "Dr Finegan is, a founding member of Catholic Comment; working alongside Ronan Mullen (Director) and David Quinn (Expert/Consultant). Other personages noted on Catholic Comment website include Breda O’Brien, Maria Steen and Lorcan Price.

But actually, he has a PhD in Law.

Ok, that explains a lot. In general, the M&FsM group have not made any play of their connection to religion, they have attempted to come across as a purely secular group apparently simply concerned about our society. This, of course, is massively disingenuous, it seems that every single group, without exception on the No side, is religious in background, and mainly Catholic.

They attempt to bamboozle the public with their strawmen and red herrings, and appeals to the constitution, and talk of human rights, but when it comes down to it it is about what it is always about with these groups, "we don't like it, the pope doesn't like it, our dogma tells us we can't allow it, we don't like the gheys, so it's not on".

Zubeneschamali

fisgon wrote: »

Ok, that explains a lot.

Yes, it's the same small group of head-the-balls every time. Finegan's first two scholarly papers at the Google scholar link above both begin : "I would like to thank Professor William Binchy"

Links234

Well this is tragic

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/04/21/transgender-scrabble-champ-got-took-her-own-life-to-escape-abuse-inquest-hears/

silverharp

Bannasidhe

silverharp wrote: »

Surely a Poe?

recedite

Is there anything to be said for saying another mass, Ted?

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

Some-one raised their P.O.V. on one of the M.E. threads recently about why polygamy and polyamory was not been treated as deserving of equality on a par to what SSM proponents are seeking. Well, it seem's Mothers And Fathers Matter are on their side, in as far as an M.A.F.M expert think's the P/P argument is as valid as that of S.S.M supporters. Dr Tom Finegan of M.A.F.M in today's irish Times..... though he think's the S.S.M claim is incoherent and irrational.

N.M.I.

Needs Moar Initialisms

silverharp

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Surely a Poe?

I think someone got creative with this

silverharp

this was the one I saw in Baggot St that got on my tits

silverharp

Commission consider clarifying surrogacy question
No campaign poster prompts "dozens" of complaints to Referendum Commission

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/commission-consider-clarifying-surrogacy-question-1.2185111

A No campaign poster has prompted the Referendum Commission to consider issuing a statement clarifying surrogacy as it relates to the same sex marriage referendum.
The commission said it had received dozens of complaints about a poster from the No side which reads “Surrogacy?” and urges voters to reject the proposed amendment to Article 41 of the Constitution.
The poster from the “Mothers and Father Matter” No campaign group appeared this week in areas of Dublin city. It shows a photo of a toddler along with the banner “Surrogacy?” and the message “She needs her mother for life, not just for nine months—vote No”.

WoolyJumper

Saw a lot of those posters up around the North side of cork city today. Literally every light/electricity pole had one. I don't know, it was really unnerving/angering to see. There was not one pro-ssm poster up.

Bannasidhe

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Saw a lot of those posters up around the North side of cork city today. Literally every light/electricity pole had one. I don't know, it was really unnerving/angering to see. There was not one pro-ssm poster up.

Those may yet backfire. Lot of people disgusted at them.

Hotblack Desiato

Yet again the level of funding available to these unaccountable shadowy groups with next to no real-world membership is apparent.

WoolyJumper

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Those may yet backfire. Lot of people disgusted at them.

Most of the posters say "children deserves a mother and father" Which probably isn't the best choice for an area that has one of the higher rates of single parenthood in Cork.

As for the surrogacy poster "a child needs her mother for life, not just 9 months". Does that mean they are okay with lesbian couples having kids, so long as one of them carries the child? Again it's not just an attack on gay people but any one that has used a surrogate/adopted/had fertility issues.

WoolyJumper

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yet again the level of funding available to these unaccountable shadowy groups with next to no real-world membership is apparent.

This is what got me. There was a lot of posters for one area. I'm sure I heard during the week someone from the no side claiming they had very little funding in comparison to the yes side. They can't be doing that badly.

shruikan2553

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Most of the posters say "children deserves a mother and father" Which probably isn't the best choice for an area that has one of the higher rates of single parenthood in Cork.

As for the surrogacy poster "a child needs her mother for life, not just 9 months". Does that mean they are okay with lesbian couples having kids, so long as one of them carries the child? Again it's not just an attack on gay people but any one that has used a surrogate/adopted/had fertility issues.

Luckily its not aimed at them, the rights of children disappear when no gay people are involved somehow. They only have these requirements if you are gay. If your parents are straight you can pop out of the ground and be raised in foster care for all they care. Just no gays.

If they at least could hate single parents and unmarried parents like they used to I could give them points for consistency.

Zubeneschamali

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If they at least could hate single parents and unmarried parents like they used to I could give them points for consistency.

I'm quite sure they hate unmarried and single parents as much as ever, but...

I think their heart isn't really in this one the same way, partly because they've already lost the public, but also because none of the Ionanists can ever admit they are gay, so they have to keep it theoretical.

alaimacerc

silverharp wrote: »

Commission consider clarifying surrogacy question
No campaign poster prompts "dozens" of complaints to Referendum Commission

Commissioner should be considering banning the heck out of those posters, and fining the 'No' campaign for their trouble. If they're going to try and win it with US donors' contributions, we might as well get our money's worth out of them, no?

alaimacerc

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well, I was behind Conor O Mahoney in a queue in the staff canteen once and I heard him say he doesn't like a particular food stuff so obviously he is the kind who discriminates based on personal bias.

Slightly disappointed this didn't come with one of your "sights and sounds of the YE Cork campaign" photos.

(Yes, I got that you were being tongue-in-cheek... or I presume so, at least!)

BlaasForRafa

WoolyJumper wrote: »

As for the surrogacy poster "a child needs her mother for life, not just 9 months". Does that mean they are okay with lesbian couples having kids, so long as one of them carries the child? Again it's not just an attack on gay people but any one that has used a surrogate/adopted/had fertility issues.

If I was adopted I'd be pretty pissed off if I saw a poster like that.

These anti types are despicable, they'll trample on anyone's feelings in order to get their way.

fisgon

Discussing this on Newstalk now. Keith Mills from M&FM said that he wanted to stop gay couples "exploiting women in developing countries" through surrogacy. He sounds really really desperate.

The Yes campaigner countered with the fact that the majority of couples who use surrogacy are in fact straight couples, which is I think obvious. Mills had no answer to that, only more bluster, more red herrings, more whinging.

galljga1

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Luckily its not aimed at them, the rights of children disappear when no gay people are involved somehow. They only have these requirements if you are gay. If your parents are straight you can pop out of the ground and be raised in foster care for all they care. Just no gays.

If they at least could hate single parents and unmarried parents like they used to I could give them points for consistency.

They still hate them but they can no longer put them in homes and steal their children.

LostinKildare

I'm watching the debate in the US too, where the Supreme Court will soon rule on the constitutionality of any state restrictions on same-sex marriage. It's interesting to note how support for SSM breaks down among the different religious groups (as opposed to in Ireland, where for the most part, "religion" means just one denomination)




What's also interesting is the rapidity of the change in people's attitudes on the issue: “A decade ago, the most supportive religious groups were white mainline Protestants and Catholics, with 36 percent and 35 percent support, respectively.”

And FYI, 77% of "religiously unaffiliated" Americans affirmed marriage equality.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/04/22/3649935/poll-american-muslims-supportive-sex-marriage-white-evangelical-christians/

PopePalpatine

I'm just wondering why that chart above has excluded black Protestants, both mainstream and evangelical.

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm just wondering why that chart above has excluded black Protestants, both mainstream and evangelical.

Yes. For example various Baptist denominations can be.... *censored*... so it would be interesting to see what the levels of support are there...

LostinKildare

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm just wondering why that chart above has excluded black Protestants, both mainstream and evangelical.

Don't know why it's not listed in the chart itself, but the article (I added link) breaks down the categories a bit more, and puts support of black Protestants at 27%.

As far as Protestants go, the most supportive groups are those whose churches allow their ministers to conduct SSM (and sometimes also have gay/lesbian ministers) --- Presbyterians (this is the denomination I grew up in), Lutherans, Episcopalians (Church of England)

Nodin

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Most of the posters say "children deserves a mother and father" Which probably isn't the best choice for an area that has one of the higher rates of single parenthood in Cork.

As for the surrogacy poster "a child needs her mother for life, not just 9 months". ...................

I thought we were killing the babies at 9 months, not the mothers. Or did nobody forward me the latest agenda change?

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

I thought we were killing the babies at 9 months, not the mothers. Or did nobody forward me the latest agenda change?

Nooooo...

The Liberal Gay Agenda wants to allow abortions of babies up to 21 years old but after that want them made President. Furthermore, the PC Brigade is going to force poor foreign women to have babies so homosexuals can get their hands on them.

The Forces of Morality Ltd (TM) want to protect every baby no matter the circumstances of their conception or viability and shun contraception as we should all be having babies. If women don't want to keep the babies they should give them up for adoption as long as they Gays are kept out of it. The Gays must never have babies not even if they are using their own wombs and want to keep the baby.

It's ALL about protecting children see.

magicbastarder

designer gay babies will become freely available on the open market to the highest bidder; produced in baby farms in the phillipines from danish and dutch embryos.

lazygal

I'm confused. Does this mean I'll have to hand over my children to any gay guys who decide to get married?

Bannasidhe

magicbastarder wrote: »

designer gay babies will become freely available on the open market to the highest bidder; produced in baby farms in the phillipines from danish and dutch embryos.

Turkish sperm. More ethnic innit.

shruikan2553

magicbastarder wrote: »

designer gay babies will become freely available on the open market to the highest bidder; produced in baby farms in the phillipines from danish and dutch embryos.

If only this happened a few decades ago, would really help the economy of baby selling we had going on. 100% Irish babies, only 50,000. 10% discount if you are a gay newlywed.

Nodin

lazygal wrote: »

I'm confused. Does this mean I'll have to hand over my children to any gay guys who decide to get married?

I'll say "Yes" because even though gay people adoption now going in law anyways. Muddy Waters - not just a blues singer.

Nodin

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If only this happened a few decades ago, would really help the economy of baby selling we had going on. 100% Irish babies, only 50,000. 10% discount if you are a gay newlywed.

*Free shuttle from Hotel To Nuns Baby Market
*Free Dinner and complimentary bottle of wine on contract signing

seamus

lazygal wrote: »

I'm confused. Does this mean I'll have to hand over my children to any gay guys who decide to get married?

Of course. Apparently gay marriage will involve a complete restructuring of society and redefinition of marriage. Not only will all children have to be handed over to gay couples, but any existing marriages will be immediately annulled and you'll be expected to enter into a new relationship, preferably one where both parties are as debauched and unnatural as possible. So sons will be required to marry both their grandfathers and brothers at the same time, that kind of thing.

magicbastarder

i had been told that if the SSM referendum passes, civil partnership will no longer be offered. is this true or false?

edit; found it:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/q-a-the-same-sex-marriage-referendum-1.2174551

fisgon

Dara O Briain tweets,

"The best thing about campaigning for a "No" vote in the #MarRef is, even if you lose, it will make no difference to your life whatsoever."

BlaasForRafa

magicbastarder wrote: »

designer gay babies will become freely available on the open market to the highest bidder; produced in baby farms in the phillipines from danish and dutch embryos.

The Ham-and-cheese toastie industry had better get it's act together for the vast increase in consumption once all those dutch/danish babies are born!

efb

magicbastarder wrote: »

i had been told that if the SSM referendum passes, civil partnership will no longer be offered. is this true or false?

edit; found it:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/q-a-the-same-sex-marriage-referendum-1.2174551

True. Those with a CP would be able to "upgrade" or leave as is. But no more would be offered

alaimacerc

fisgon wrote: »

The Yes campaigner countered with the fact that the majority of couples who use surrogacy are in fact straight couples, which is I think obvious. Mills had no answer to that, only more bluster, more red herrings, more whinging.

Obviously should have said "And I thought we were better than that!"

alaimacerc

efb wrote: »

True. Those with a CP would be able to "upgrade" or leave as is. But no more would be offered

Anyone have a non-paywalled link for this? Apparently I'm maxed out on freebies this week. (Not skeptical, recall hearing the same thing, just like to see the detail.)

Presumably this would be in the "goverment plans" category, rather than "necessitated by the referendum result" one.

alaimacerc

LostinKildare wrote: »

As far as Protestants go, the most supportive groups are those whose churches allow their ministers to conduct SSM (and sometimes also have gay/lesbian ministers) --- Presbyterians (this is the denomination I grew up in), Lutherans, Episcopalians (Church of England)

I wan't aware these were actually conducting SSMs yet. At least not the Presbs and Anglicans In These Islands(TM). US branches can and will vary! Specifically, I though the CoE was still officially "opposed", and the CoS "having a bit of a think".

Stark

alaimacerc wrote: »

Anyone have a non-paywalled link for this? Apparently I'm maxed out on freebies this week. (Not skeptical, recall hearing the same thing, just like to see the detail.)

Presumably this would be in the "goverment plans" category, rather than "necessitated by the referendum result" one.

It's on the Referendum Commission website: http://refcom2015.ie/marriage/#heading-5 . You're correct that it's a proposal rather than something set in stone.

LostinKildare

alaimacerc wrote: »

I wan't aware these were actually conducting SSMs yet. At least not the Presbs and Anglicans In These Islands(TM). US branches can and will vary! Specifically, I though the CoE was still officially "opposed", and the CoS "having a bit of a think".

Yes, certainly the Presbyterian Church USA (PCU) is very far from the NI Ian Paisley version! Individual ministers in Presbyterian churches have been conducting SSMs for many years, breaking church law, but the PCU recently voted to officially sanction SSM.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/us/presbyterians-give-final-approval-for-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=0

Also from this link:

Other religious denominations that have officially decided to permit their clergy to perform same-sex marriages include the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, the Quakers, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Churches and, in Judaism, the Reform and Conservative movements. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America left it open for individual ministers to decide.

Bannasidhe

recedite

A Top Muslim confirms that if the referendum succeeds

..Gay people will be able to adopt children. These children will be brought up without either a father or a mother..

Poor little orphans, so sad.

shruikan2553

recedite wrote: »

A Top Muslim confirms that if the referendum succeedsPoor little orphans, so sad.

Bit slow on current events arent they.