Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's in English and written with perfectly cromulent words and all, but I still can't figure it out.

They did a Church crawl in Cork because the price of the bus to Clon is a rip off.

TheChizler

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Is that the CoI one up behind Shandon Hill? Me and the brother did a trawl around the Cork churches back when he was home 6 months ago, the weekend we were down, mainly because there was no ****ing way we were going to pay €20 each to get a bus out to Clonakilty.

Up around that direction all right! Good memory.

Hotblack Desiato

Nick Park wrote: »

Incorrect, actually. The vast majority of the people in that church were Irish citizens. They have made their home in Ireland, many of them have been here 15 years or longer, and they are proud to be Irish.

that's grand
None of what I posted is incorrect though, it's simply pointing out a fact, only citizens can vote on this.

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They did a Church crawl in Cork because the price of the bus to Clon is a rip off.

What's that?
A sip of communion wine in each one, or something?
Can't people be content with traditional Irish values - a 'fast mass' once a week or so?

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What's that?
A sip of communion wine in each one, or something?
Can't people be content with traditional Irish values - a 'fast mass' once a week or so?

Some funky looking churches in Cork.

alaimacerc

PopePalpatine wrote: »

He doesn't do hyperbole by halves, does he?

Would that be hypohyperbole, perhaps?

alaimacerc

The Black Oil wrote: »

Interesting sidelight that in a batch of referenda that incidentally makes the pres-age language gender neutral by finessing pronoun usage, the FFF throwbacks want to do it by... making children neuter.

Seriously, who calls a child "it", in this day and age? (Rhetorical question, as I come across it every so often. And wonder the same thing every time...)

TheChizler

My favourite moments of tonight's referendum debate:

WoolyJumper

Yeah surprised no one seemed to pick up on the fact Keith Mills put other mother in quotation marks when talking to the girl about her relationship to her non biological mother.

TheChizler

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Yeah surprised no one seemed to pick up on the fact Keith Mills put other mother in quotation marks when talking to the girl about her relationship to her non biological mother.

Highly disrespectful!

alaimacerc

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Yeah surprised no one seemed to pick up on the fact Keith Mills put other mother in quotation marks when talking to the girl about her relationship to her non biological mother.

Priced into the KeithM brand at this stage, I think.

fisgon

Not sure if anyone has seen this site before, TheLiberal.ie. Just discovered it, they have a laughable report on last night's debate...

http://theliberal.ie/gay-marriage-yes-and-no-side-battled-it-out-on-the-late-late-show/

It is clearly some kind of Iona front, with some other general news thrown in. It said it was said up in early 2014. I'm not exactly sure of the rationale behind calling itself what it did, it is clearly the voice of the most conservative retrograde, illiberal forces in Irish society. It seems like a very sad attempt to get attention, or deceive people or something.

Whatever, their "report" on the Late Late debate is truly fantasy land journalism.

lazygal

It's run by Cora "there's always a better choice namely remaining pregnant and the pro choice bias of rte needs to be challenged and plenty of women regret abortion so you will too" Sherlock's brother afaik. David Quinn is fierce excited about it and links to it on the tweet machine a lot.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

It's run by Cora "there's always a better choice namely remaining pregnant and the pro choice bias of rte needs to be challenged and plenty of women regret abortion so you will too" Sherlock's brother afaik. David Quinn is fierce excited about it and links to it on the tweet machine a lot.

I'll bet that's Enda Sherlock. Had plenty of run-ins with him on pro-choice facebook pages. He's as smarmy and self-righteous as they come. Very little info on him online as far as I recall.

fisgon

lazygal wrote: »

It's run by Cora "there's always a better choice namely remaining pregnant and the pro choice bias of rte needs to be challenged and plenty of women regret abortion so you will too" Sherlock's brother afaik. David Quinn is fierce excited about it and links to it on the tweet machine a lot.

Interesting. It is clearly an attempt to ape TheJournal.ie, and to pretend that it is in some way a real news site. Typical of the kind of insidious misinformation tactics that the theocratic agenda indulges in over and over and over again.

recedite

Nick Park wrote: »

Incorrect, actually. The vast majority of the people in that church were Irish citizens. They have made their home in Ireland, many of them have been here 15 years or longer, and they are proud to be Irish.

You'd need to be a bit more specific about what we are talking about. Were they previously EU citizens or not? Is it the Russian Orthodox church in Harolds Cross?

Zubeneschamali

fisgon wrote: »

It said it was said up in early 2014.

Opinion piece authors:

Vincent Maguire, Darragh Roche, Daniel Crown, James Brennan, Fernando Sanchez, Paddy Manning (!),

The seem to be anti water charges, but also anti SF and AAA.

Shrap

Shrap wrote: »

I'll bet that's Enda Sherlock. Had plenty of run-ins with him on pro-choice facebook pages. He's as smarmy and self-righteous as they come. Very little info on him online as far as I recall.

Correction - it's a Leo Sherlock.

aloyisious

I'm not sure what Paddy Manning was up to last night when he said that the Child Protection Charities were cosying up to the politicians for funding, thus their "vote YES" stance on the referendum, basically an implication that their backing was being bought. I don't know if he was putting himself up as the "vote NO" campaign baddie, so the other "NO" campaigners Petra and Keith seem adult and reasonable people, or whether there was personal animus against some people on the "vote YES" campaign. Keith did make several misleading statements, incl one about the present equality of marriage and civil partnership here. Paddy's statements left me with a feeling of disgust at how another gay man could deride the human desires of other LGBT people so easily on parentage and children.

LostinKildare

The controversial US anti-SSM National Organization for Marriage (for background, see its Wikipedia page) has sent out an email to its members asking them to support the defeat of the referendum in Ireland. The full blog post of this appeal is here:

http://www.nomblog.com/40240/

It directs members to support the No campaign by visiting the site of Mothers & Fathers Matter and the Family & Life Centre for Public Policy www.keepmarriage.org, which solicits donations with this note:

"All qualifying donations will be directed towards the campaign for a No vote in Ireland's referendum on marriage. Non-qualifying donations and any portion of a donation that may exceed the statutory thresholds will be directed towards those members of the coalition focused on education, research and the legal defence of individuals and businesses exercising their right not to provide goods or services that they find objectionable."
https://donate.keepmarriage.org/

Question: Is this legal?

Penn

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm not sure what Paddy Manning was up to last night when he said that the Child Protection Charities were cosying up to the politicians for funding, thus their "vote YES" stance on the referendum, basically an implication that their backing was being bought. I don't know if he was putting himself up as the "vote NO" campaign baddie, so the other "NO" campaigners Petra and Keith seem adult and reasonable people, or whether there was personal animus against some people on the "vote YES" campaign.

I don't remember his quote but I'm pretty sure Keith Mills made some comment about the children's charities being "government funded" or something like that in his direct response to the woman from the ISPCC, before Paddy Manning got near a microphone.

Nick Park

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

that's grand
None of what I posted is incorrect though, it's simply pointing out a fact, only citizens can vote on this.

Your other statement was incorrect, namely "few EU immigrants would bother taking out citizenship". There are thousands of Romanian immigrants who are now Irish citizens.

Nick Park

recedite wrote: »

You'd need to be a bit more specific about what we are talking about. Were they previously EU citizens or not? Is it the Russian Orthodox church in Harolds Cross?

Nope, not Russian Orthodox. Romanian Pentecostals - there are 20 such congregations that I am aware of in Ireland and a large majority of the members hold Irish citizenship. The congregation I was visiting recently was one of the larger ones, I was at their second service of the day and there were about 500 people present.

In terms of a Referendum where possibly 2 million people will vote and opinion polls are showing such a large majority for the Yes side, such groups are hardly likely to be significant. But I am just correcting another poster who, for some reason, seems to think that few Eastern Europeans would bother to become Irish citizens.

The reason I mentioned this crowd at all was in mentioning that I declined to stage a vote registration event with the Gardai on their behalf as I didn't want to politicise the Gardai by involving them in an event which would inevitably be seen as promoting one side of the Referendum debate.

Hotblack Desiato

Nick Park wrote: »

Your other statement was incorrect, namely "few EU immigrants would bother taking out citizenship". There are thousands of Romanian immigrants who are now Irish citizens.

It wouldn't matter if every single Romanian here took out Irish citizenship, they'd still be a small minority of the EU nationals living here. UK nationals alone make up 2.5% of our population, the rest of the EU 6.1% (source: CSO via Wikipedia)

Romania only joined the EU in 2007, and they didn't have full rights to live and work here until (I think) 2010, by which time immigration had long since peaked - so all except the most recent immigrants gained a substantial benefit from becoming citizens here.

But EU nationals who already have full rights to live and work here generally don't bother as all they gain is enhanced voting rights.

recedite

Nick Park wrote: »

.. I am just correcting another poster who, for some reason, seems to think that few Eastern Europeans would bother to become Irish citizens....

Romania and Bulgaria are special cases because under the terms of EU accession their freedom to migrate within the EU was restricted for many years. You didn't say originally who you were talking about.

Full free movement should have applied from 2012. There is a provision however whereby an original member state may ask the Commission to continue restrictions for a further 2 years if it is experiencing serious disturbances in its labour market. In December 2011 Ireland decided to maintain the current restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians until 31 December 2013. However on 17 July 2012 the Irish Government decided to end restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians accessing the Irish labour market with effect from 1 January 2012.
There is complete freedom of movement from 2014 for Bulgaria and Romania, which joined in 2007.

Bannasidhe

But... they say... there is NO comparison between the civil rights movement and Marriage Equality....

SpaceTime

Is the above for real?

An anti-gay rally?!?! I sincerely hope that's a typo!

If not it should have been countered with an impromptu gay pride rally.

Also who is this guy and why does he think he should be able to dictate how people going to an event hosted by a broadcaster im Austria should dress?!!

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is the above for real?

An anti-gay rally?!?! I sincerely hope that's a typo!

If not it should have been countered with an impromptu gay pride rally.

I imagine he meant anti-gay marriage rally.

recedite

Just watched the LLS debate on the RTE player.

Bizarre that the No argument centred on "gender balance" in civil marriage; ie "children need a mother and a father as role models". Yet of the two proponents, one was a gay man and one a single mother.

Colm O Gorman is an incredibly effective speaker; short anecdotes with powerful punchlines. I wonder if he will go into politics eventually?

I got the impression that Paddy the gay Kerryman and Petra the unmarried mother were bitter that they had been denied that whole "white wedding/happy ever after" experience, and so why shouldn't other people suffer and be denied it too. Sure isn't that what builds moral fibre.

Paddy made one interesting point, he said if a Yes vote is passed, when it comes to adoption, it will not be legally possible to "privilege" heterosexual married couples over same sex ones. Or in other words, to discriminate against same sex couples.
I'm not sure whether that would be true. Assuming for the sake of this argument that we did want to automatically prioritise heterosexual couples, presumably they could be prioritised on the basis of "suitability" in the same way that married applicants are prioritised over single, or younger couples over older ones, homeowners over the homeless? That's not an equallity issue, its a suitability issue. There are so many factors to be taken into account when placing a child into adoption. It would be a pity to be restricted legally into giving priority to a heterosexual couple who was unsuitable in every other way, over a same sex couple. So I don't think Paddys "automatic privilege" would ever materialise anyway, whether it was legally possible or not.

colossus-x

Having Paddy Manning on the Late Late Show or any TV show can only serve as positive for the No campaign. I don't think his contribution last night could ever sway any floating voter. In fact I found it very difficult to even follow what he was talking about as he comes across as completely unhinged. He also comes across as quite a hateful and bitter person.

SpaceTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I imagine he meant anti-gay marriage rally.

I certainly hope that it was a typo.

I'm just not sure why he's addressing people going to the Eurovision though. It's tad presumptuous to dictate a dress code on someone else's event!

Nick Park

recedite wrote: »

Romania and Bulgaria are special cases because under the terms of EU accession their freedom to migrate within the EU was restricted for many years. You didn't say originally who you were talking about.

Not quite sure why I should have said who I was talking about? Does the precise nationality of these people affect the point I was making about the politicisation of the Gardai?

I wasn't trying to make any point about the number of immigrants into Ireland, where they come from, or what percentage of them become Irish citizens.

I don't tend to get over-excited about people's ethic backgrounds.

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

I certainly hope that it was a typo.

I'm just not sure why he's addressing people going to the Eurovision though. It's tad presumptuous to dictate a dress code on someone else's event!

Typo or a Freudian Slip.... that is the question.


Keith appears to be embarrassed by grown men who get super excited about a song contest and squeeeeeel with super excitement and....

hmmmmmm....

SpaceTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Typo or a Freudian Slip.... that is the question.


Keith appears to be embarrassed by grown men who get super excited about a song contest and squeeeeeel with super excitement and....

hmmmmmm....

And they're the straight lads!

I get a bit annoyed about this confusion between gay and camp. One can be gay and enjoy being very macho or straight and enjoy camping it up. The two things don't necessarily have anything to do with sexuality.

In fact, homophobic bullying often hits non macho straight guys and girls who are into more stereotypically male activities.

It's an utter nonsense in reality and hurts a lot of people who end up getting a load of abuse for who they are.

Homophobia is a very nasty and insidious thing and the reality is that by making being gay a non issue, it will actually improve life for not only gay people but hopefully it will give everyone an ability to just be themselves!

I suspect a referendum win for the yes side will give a lot of gay people and by knock on effect people in general a big boost in the sense that they can just be themselves!

Nobody should be going around worried that people might think they're gay any more than they might think they've green eyes.

That's got to be healthy for society!

aloyisious

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Typo or a Freudian Slip.... that is the question.


Keith appears to be embarrassed by grown men who get super excited about a song contest and squeeeeeel with super excitement and.... wearing lederhosen shorts

hmmmmmm....

Edited that for you

magicbastarder

hotel prices in dublin the night of may 23rd. you'd swear something was on that day.

http://www.booking.com/searchresults.en-gb.html?src=index&nflt=&ss_raw=dublin&error_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.booking.com%2Findex.en-gb.html%3Fsid%3Ddb657c71135e2e077dd025c4ab303487%3Bdcid%3D4%3B&dcid=4&sid=db657c71135e2e077dd025c4ab303487&si=ai%2Cco%2Cci%2Cre%2Cdi&ss=Dublin%2C+Dublin+County%2C+Ireland&checkin_monthday=23&checkin_year_month=2015-5&checkout_monthday=24&checkout_year_month=2015-5&no_rooms=1&group_adults=2&group_children=0&dest_type=city&dest_id=-1502554&place_id=&ac_pageview_id=43200d8937fd0275&ac_position=0&ac_langcode=xu&ac_suggestion_list_length=5

recedite

Nick Park wrote: »

Not quite sure why I should have said who I was talking about? Does the precise nationality of these people affect the point I was making about the politicisation of the Gardai?
I don't tend to get over-excited about people's ethic backgrounds.

Its nothing to do with the Gardai. You said the following post was "incorrect"...

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Only Irish citizens can vote in referendums, few EU immigrants would bother taking out citizenship.

That post is not incorrect.
You are talking about a special case; a category of people who have already taken out Irish citizenship for other unrelated reasons, but were not interested enough in Irish society to register as voters. Until now.
I'm sure plenty of Romanians will be voting yes, but maybe just not the ones attending this particular church you were at.

Brian Shanahan

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's in English and written with perfectly cromulent words and all, but I still can't figure it out.

Sorry for the bad parsing. I was like a drownded rat after watching a hurling match last night.

Brian Shanahan

fisgon wrote: »

Not sure if anyone has seen this site before, TheLiberal.ie. Just discovered it, they have a laughable report on last night's debate...

http://theliberal.ie/gay-marriage-yes-and-no-side-battled-it-out-on-the-late-late-show/

It is clearly some kind of Iona front, with some other general news thrown in. It said it was said up in early 2014. I'm not exactly sure of the rationale behind calling itself what it did, it is clearly the voice of the most conservative retrograde, illiberal forces in Irish society. It seems like a very sad attempt to get attention, or deceive people or something.

Whatever, their "report" on the Late Late debate is truly fantasy land journalism.

Whois lookup of the site:

domain:       theliberal.ie
descr:        Leo Sherlock
descr:        Sole Trader
descr:        Registered Business Name
admin-c:      AQF954-IEDR
tech-c:       AAM456-IEDR
registration: 28-January-2013
renewal:      28-January-2016
holder-type:  Billable
wipo-status:  N
ren-status:   Active
in-zone:      1
nserver:      ns1.bluehost.com  
nserver:      ns2.bluehost.com  
source:       IEDR

person:       Leo Sherlock
nic-hdl:      AQF954-IEDR
source:       IEDR

person:       Blacknight.ie Hostmaster
nic-hdl:      AAM456-IEDR
source:       IEDR

Suprise, suprise, the site is registered to and run by a brother of terrific (in the original meaing of the word) Cora Sherlock

Another thing I've just noticed about the site, under the banner of the facebook "likes" it has (supposedly at 191k likes), it lists a whole load of friends of the GAA club I'm currently logged into Facebook as, all eight of the highlighted I know for a fact are either voting yes or too young to vote (and would never even look at a site like this never mind like it). Let me log in as me and see what happens

<later that day>

Yep, changed, though now I know only five of the eight listed I know (some different, some the same), and again all of them would be yes voters.

I'm guessing young Leo's response when asked to define "truth in journalism" is a short succinct "buh?"

WoolyJumper

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Keith Mills appeals for the Gays to check themselves at Eurovision...

Internalised homophobia definitely does exist and I say this as someone who used to struggle with this a lot, even after I was out to my family and friends.

I just find what Keith Mills said to be very telling because I always find internalised homophobia manifests itself in the form of being embarrassed by or an irrational dislike of camp gay men/masculine gay women.

Shrap

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Internalised homophobia definitely does exist and I say this as someone who used to struggle with this a lot, even after I was out to my family and friends.

I just find what Keith Mills said to be very telling because I always find internalised homophobia manifests itself in the form of being embarrassed by or an irrational dislike of camp gay men/masculine gay women.

That wasn't really from Keith Mills. He denied it on twitter this morning and said that was from someone who used his name to set up an email account. For all that I don't agree with the guy, I can't agree with someone doing that either. Pretty shabby tbh.

Shrap

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Typo or a Freudian Slip.... that is the question.


Keith appears to be embarrassed by grown men who get super excited about a song contest and squeeeeeel with super excitement and....

hmmmmmm....

Wasn't him and whoever wrote and posted it is making us look a bit silly, not him

The Black Oil

Been watching the film Network. Once the referendum passes we'll be obliged to shout 'I'm married as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!'

Bannasidhe

Shrap wrote: »

Wasn't him and whoever wrote and posted it is making us look a bit silly, not him

Rabble are usually a fairly reliable source :mad:

Links234

Speaking of internalized homophobia... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/randy-boehning-grindr_n_7176406.html#.1kwisa:kjD0

Another day, another anti-gay politician comes out of the closet

wampyrus77

Interfering' with marriage definition not a 'trivial matter' - Archbishop and our churchs our run by idiot same sex marriage has nothing with children people of same sex marriage cant have children by giving birth, so can they raise children only by adoption and just referendum marriage of two people of same sex not children

Bannasidhe

wampyrus77 wrote: »

Interfering' with marriage definition not a 'trivial matter' - Archbishop and our churchs our run by idiot same sex marriage has nothing with children people of same sex marriage cant have children by giving birth, so can they raise children only by adoption and just referendum marriage of two people of same sex not children

pardon?

wampyrus77

AND WHO WON EUROVISION

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnqyNXJFkQU

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

pardon?

'For gay marriage. Referendum has nothing to do with childer.' I believe.

Shrap

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Rabble are usually a fairly reliable source :mad:

Yeah, annoying they fell for it, as did we all. More cynically though, am thinking that the reason Mr. Mills said very, very little about it (in fairness, as is his right) and let it run with his words "Haven't made a big deal out of it but a shameful tactic doing the author no favours", may have been to see how far it went into the media before crying victim.

Would have been entitled to though. This was potentially a massive dirty great bomb in our midst.