New Regulations January 2013

V!PER · 13-08-2012 10:47am

The sooner these rules are made concrete and finalised the better.

Motorist · 27-08-2012 11:14pm

why don't you have to take IBT module number 2 and 4 if you're over 24?

daenerysstormborn3 · 27-08-2012 11:24pm

Motorist wrote: »

why don't you have to take IBT module number 2 and 4 if you're over 24?

I don't think MAG's questions and queries about the document have been answered yet and I don't think any of the ADIs have been met with about it yet either so there probably won't be a concrete answer on that yet. There will probably be some changes here and there once MAG's questions are dealt with since they will actually be dealing with things from our point of view as opposed to the point of view of non-bikers.

LookBehindYou · 28-08-2012 12:00am

Meeting for ADIs with RSA on Sunday 14th Oct to discuss the new regulations, so until then nobody knows the facts.

carsQhere · 01-09-2012 10:45am

Posting on behalf of MAG Ireland;

MAG Ireland has now received a formal response to the queries we raised with the RSA on behalf of riders. The RSA in turn had to clarify some issues with the EU Commission which is why it took a while. We'll be publishing the response on our web site and facebook pages.

Response now up at: http://www.magireland.org/2012/campaigns/training/rsa-responds-on-bike-license-queries/

Hope it helps some of you.

F.Y.I. The mag facebook page is http://www.facebook.com/magireland.org or if you prefer, follow @mag_ireland on twitter to be kept up to date with the latest developments.

paddy147 · 01-09-2012 1:30pm

I can se alot of confusion here in the future and people getting in trouble with the law,due to so many confusing bits of information.

Why the fcuk cant the RSA just keep things simple?????

Faith+1 · 01-09-2012 2:08pm

paddy147 wrote: »

I can se alot of confusion here in the future and people getting in trouble with the law,due to so many confusing bits of information.

Why the fcuk cant the RSA just keep things simple?????

It's not the RSA paddy, it's a new EU directive that all member states must follow. It's the RSA's PR that is fcuking it up for everybody. The new regulations are not that hard to understand.

"Q11. If I have taken my test before next year, does the 25kw restriction automatically update to 35kw on January 19th 2013?"

The general principle that the rules that applied on date of issue continues to apply- the 25Kw restriction will apply until the two years are over.

^^ That one has piss*d me right off though!

prunudo · 01-09-2012 7:25pm

Faith+1 wrote: »

It's not the RSA paddy, it's a new EU directive that all member states must follow. It's the RSA's PR that is fcuking it up for everybody. The new regulations are not that hard to understand.

"Q11. If I have taken my test before next year, does the 25kw restriction automatically update to 35kw on January 19th 2013?"

The general principle that the rules that applied on date of issue continues to apply- the 25Kw restriction will apply until the two years are over.

^^ That one has piss*d me right off though!

I agree, how can it make sense to allow somebody who has just passed their test ride a bike 40% more powerful than somebody who has had a full license for say 18 months.

rat_race · 01-09-2012 7:27pm

jvan wrote: »

I agree, how can it make sense to allow somebody who has just passed their test ride a bike 40% more powerful than somebody who has had a full license for say 18 months.

Because there is more to the new test.

I'm not defending all this BS, but that is the reason.

paddy147 · 01-09-2012 7:31pm

Isnt it amazing how they dont/wont put restrictors on CARS for people doing a car test

prunudo · 01-09-2012 7:32pm

rat_race wrote: »

Because there is more to the new test.

I'm not defending all this BS, but that is the reason.

I would have thought 18 months of real life riding would make up for as much as any adjustments to the test, and besides, what would change in the remaining 6months of the restriction to prepare a rider to ride an unrestricted bike.

rat_race · 01-09-2012 7:51pm

jvan wrote: »

I would have thought 18 months of real life riding would make up for as much as any adjustments to the test, and besides, what would change in the remaining 6months of the restriction to prepare a rider to ride an unrestricted bike.

Yes, it's pretty retarded.

FYI, I called Carole Nash and AON recently about a new 800CC bike. I've been riding for less than a year and have had full license since May. Got quotes from both...AON required me to do an insurance assessment. Nash didn't, but cost more. Neither asked for nor mentioned restriction.

To see if I could decrease the cost I said "you do know this bike will be restricted, right?" and they lady said "well, not from factory...and we don't recognise after market restrictors because they're so easy to remove". I said "ohhh...hmmm", thinking I gave the game away and was about to learn I could not be insured...

But, the conversation went on...they didn't care or ask about any more on that.

What's my point? If/when I want a bigger bike, I'm just going to get insured without mentioning restriction -- which I think will be the case, then buy it and hope nothing happens.

prunudo · 01-09-2012 8:11pm

But that's the thing, if lads who are into bikes can barely work out the new regs, what hope is there for the person at the other of the phone in some call centre.

sonic85 · 01-09-2012 10:12pm

im 26 and just beginning to get into biking. i got a learner permit nearly two years ago but never used it. im going to apply for a second permit next month and i know ill have to apply for a test for the full license in the next two years.

my question is how will these new regulations affect me if at all?

carsQhere · 02-09-2012 10:36am

sonic85 wrote: »

im 26 and just beginning to get into biking. i got a learner permit nearly two years ago but never used it. im going to apply for a second permit next month and i know ill have to apply for a test for the full license in the next two years.

my question is how will these new regulations affect me if at all?

From Q1, paragraph 2 here...

As I understand it, because you were issued your LP before 19th January 2013, you will be dealt with under the current system. If you sit (and pass) a test after 10th January 2013, you will be issued with an A2 license.

carsQhere · 02-09-2012 10:40am

jvan wrote: »

I agree, how can it make sense to allow somebody who has just passed their test ride a bike 40% more powerful than somebody who has had a full license for say 18 months.

Once again, someone is equating power with danger.

jvan, can you point to any motorcycle study anywhere which shows a link between the power of the bike and the likelyhood of your being involved in an accident?

carsQhere · 02-09-2012 10:53am

paddy147 wrote: »

I can se alot of confusion here in the future and people getting in trouble with the law,due to so many confusing bits of information.

Why the fcuk cant the RSA just keep things simple?????

As was said, it's the EU directive which makes things complex, but the S.I. implementing it into Irish law was utterly shambolic, and completely failed to implement key aspects of the directive.

To be fair to the RSA they're caught in the middle to some extent. MAG met with the RSA earlier in the year and pointed out some of the flaws in the S.I. which was completely unworkable.

It says something that even the RSA with all the resources of the state at their disposal are struggling with this directive.

Most of the confusion is because we are between two systems right now. For people coming into biking for the first time after 19th January next, it'll be a lot clearer.

Motorist · 02-09-2012 11:00am

I wonder when instructors will get information on this new IBT "progress" module, and when it will become available.

prunudo · 02-09-2012 11:24am

carsQhere wrote: »

Once again, someone is equating power with danger.

jvan, can you point to any motorcycle study anywhere which shows a link between the power of the bike and the likelyhood of your being involved in an accident?

While I'm not denying that you can have an accident on any size bike, what I am saying is that somebody who has real life, everyday riding on a full for 18 months is stuck with 25kw while somebody who has had a lp for a short period of time(say starting sep'12 ) but passes their test after the 19th Jan will be given an A2 license up to 35kw. And unless the test changes drastically, the current one of riding around at no more than 60kph will not test 'normal' everyday riding.

carsQhere · 02-09-2012 1:39pm

The person on a 25kW bike will be automatically de-restricted at the end of two years, potentially to multiples of the 25kW figure, with no training or transitionary instruction.

The person graduating from an A2 35kW to a full A will have to undergo training to do so under the new regulations.

In theory, the new system will mean safer riders. Might not be as many riders, but they will at least have undergone some proper training.

daenerysstormborn3 · 03-09-2012 11:13pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Isnt it amazing how they dont/wont put restrictors on CARS for people doing a car test

Can't upset the car drivers Paddy.

carsQhere wrote: »

From Q1, paragraph 2 here...

As I understand it, because you were issued your LP before 19th January 2013, you will be dealt with under the current system. If you sit (and pass) a test after 10th January 2013, you will be issued with an A2 license.

Er what? My understanding of the new process is that if you are over 24 and currently hold a LP you can wait until after 19th January 2013 and sit your test through the direct access route and obtain your full unrestricted A licence (if you are successful of course) and don't have to go through the new tier.

Faith+1 · 03-09-2012 11:54pm

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Er what? My understanding of the new process is that if you are over 24 and currently hold a LP you can wait until after 19th January 2013 and sit your test through the direct access route and obtain your full unrestricted A licence (if you are successful of course) and don't have to go through the new tier.

Yes but riders who have an LP issued after Dec 2010 will have to do a 5th IBT module along with a new driving test to acquire a full unrestricted A.

rat_race · 04-09-2012 12:48am

carsQhere wrote: »

Once again, someone is equating power with danger.

I really can't see what's wrong with "equating" that -- even if it is technically an assumption. I've no idea where there exists a study, but given that every insurance company quotes higher premiums for more powerful vehicles, I'd bet there exists some statistics to back this up.

I would also argue that it is just common sense to say if there were two almost identical bikes, with one having more torque and horsepower, and two identical riders, then the chances of a serious accident increase with the more powerful bike...I don't see how it could be any other way. Humans are not perfect; they will all make mistakes, or take risks, now and again.

I know I've made mistakes in the past and often said "thank $*&@ I'm on a 250"...and I have also ridden bigger bikes a few times, and made mistakes...which are much less forgiving.

carsQhere · 04-09-2012 10:49am

rat_race wrote: »

I really can't see what's wrong with "equating" that -- even if it is technically an assumption. I've no idea where there exists a study, but given that every insurance company quotes higher premiums for more powerful vehicles, I'd bet there exists some statistics to back this up.

Insurance companies are only too delighted to have people believe more power = more risk. As long as people don't do too much thinking, or ask any awkward questions, their profits keep rolling in.

rat_race wrote: »

I would also argue that it is just common sense to say if there were two almost identical bikes, with one having more torque and horsepower, and two identical riders, then the chances of a serious accident increase with the more powerful bike...I don't see how it could be any other way.

So by your logic, you are more likely to be rear ended on a superbike than on a moped.

rat_race wrote: »

Humans are not perfect; they will all make mistakes, or take risks, now and again.

So the human is the risk factor, not the horsepower of the bike.

rat_race wrote: »

I know I've made mistakes in the past and often said "thank $*&@ I'm on a 250"...and I have also ridden bigger bikes a few times, and made mistakes...which are much less forgiving.

Again, the risk factor is you, the rider, not the bike. You made mistakes on a 250 and then repeated the process on a larger bike.

The power of the bike is not the problem.

It's the singer, not the song.

carsQhere · 04-09-2012 11:00am

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Er what? My understanding of the new process is that if you are over 24 and currently hold a LP you can wait until after 19th January 2013 and sit your test through the direct access route and obtain your full unrestricted A licence (if you are successful of course) and don't have to go through the new tier.

That's basically what the RSA said initially here in Q 13.

Q13 I am 24 or over and currently hold a learner permit in Category A. I’m not planning to sit my practical driving test until after the 19th January 2013. What do the changes mean for me?

A13 If you pass your test and get a full Category A licence after the 19th January 2013 and you are aged 24 or over, you will be issued with a full licence in Category A with no restriction attached to the licence. If your first learner permit was issued on or after the 6th December 2010, you are required to complete Initial Basic Training, before you sit your driving test.

In their latest communication to MAG they appear contradict the above in the second paragraph of Q1.

Q1. I am 23 and have an A learner permit. I will be 24 in February. Am I correct in saying the best thing for me to do, is to do my full test when I turn 24 and then I will get the full A that is not restricted as I will be over 24?

If you are aged 23 and you do your driving test and exchange your pass driving test certificate for your full licence before the 19 January 2013, you will get that licence with a restriction for two years – this restriction is 25kW. However, if you are turning 24 in February, and you wait until after that to sit your driving test (on your current permit), when you exchange your pass driving test certificate you will get an A2 full licence. This is because the motorcycle that a current A permit allows you to ride is a representative vehicle for the (post 19 January 2013) A2 licence.

A person who today holds a current A permit and who is over 24 will also get an A2 if s/he passes the driving test after 19 January 2013. However that person can take out a new category A learner permit after 19 January 2013 and sit the test and get the full unrestricted A licence. In doing this s/he will have to take certain Initial Basic Training (IBT) modules tailored to riding the more powerful bikes.

MAG Ireland will have to go back to the RSA on this, and I believe this is being done.

TeddyTedson · 04-09-2012 9:39pm

I wonder if I have time to get mine before this....

daenerysstormborn3 · 04-09-2012 9:46pm

carsQhere wrote: »

That's basically what the RSA said initially here in Q 13.

In their latest communication to MAG they appear contradict the above in the second paragraph of Q1.

MAG Ireland will have to go back to the RSA on this, and I believe this is being done.

I did e-mail them and set out my own particular circumstances and I was told that I could avail of the direct access route and would just need to sit the IBT module 5 and then I could obtain my full licence without restriction.

I seriously hope the RSA aren't being idiotic (as per usual) and giving out incorrect information to learners that could have a massive effect on their driving.

LookBehindYou · 04-09-2012 11:18pm

Motorist wrote: »

I wonder when instructors will get information on this new IBT "progress" module, and when it will become available.

14th Oct , Instructors have a meeting with RSA, until then its guessing.

rat_race · 05-09-2012 12:27am

carsQhere wrote: »

Insurance companies are only too delighted to have people believe more power = more risk. As long as people don't do too much thinking, or ask any awkward questions, their profits keep rolling in.

Yeah, there is absolutely no correlation between speed and the severity of accidents. At all. Ever. It's a scam. (hint of sarcasm there)

carsQhere wrote: »

So by your logic, you are more likely to be rear ended on a superbike than on a moped.

What logic? I'm not sure where you're getting a moped/superbike comparison. I said two identical bikes, bar engine performance.

carsQhere wrote: »

So the human is the risk factor, not the horsepower of the bike.

I never said otherwise to that and that doesn't change my point. Almost all accidents are due to human error or misjudgement. But not "the" human (rider); but "a" human (any road user). If you give someone the power to go 200MPH, they are likely to abuse that power. Or make a mistake and reach unintended speeds/acceleration. If you do not provide that power, they cannot. It is that simple, and that is the logic.

If someone goes 200MPH, and somebody else makes a mistake, you have a very bad accident, as opposed to someone going half that speed. It does not matter whose fault it is. But experience may have prevented that abuse or power, or prevented the accident. As would a slower bike.

carsQhere wrote: »

Again, the risk factor is you, the rider, not the bike. You made mistakes on a 250 and then repeated the process on a larger bike.

The power of the bike is not the problem.

Again, the risk factor is the rider, or somebody else on the road. A bike in a garage is not a risk, we get that.

It's okay not to like the current or upcoming rules. I know I don't. But this is a very silly argument...

Hotblack Desiato · 05-09-2012 1:11am

rat_race wrote: »

Yeah, there is absolutely no correlation between speed and the severity of accidents. At all. Ever. It's a scam. (hint of sarcasm there)

What's the correlation between the power output of a bike and the speed it'll be ridden at in the real world? None. It depends on the rider.

What logic? I'm not sure where you're getting a moped/superbike comparison. I said two identical bikes, bar engine performance.

No, you're not getting it. It doesn't matter what type of bike you have or how powerful it is when some idiot drives into you, and a large number of bike accidents are not the rider's fault at all.

If you give someone the power to go 200MPH, they are likely to abuse that power.

Speak for yourself. A rider who doesn't learn discipline is unlikely to last long, no matter what bike they're riding

Or make a mistake and reach unintended speeds/acceleration.

Any sane rider will be more cautious on an unfamiliar bike, not less. More powerful bikes have larger brakes and larger tyre contact patches, and so usually have shorter stopping distances.

If someone goes 200MPH, and somebody else makes a mistake

Who exactly is doing 200MPH on the road?

But experience may have prevented that abuse or power, or prevented the accident. As would a slower bike.

So which is better - rider skill and judgement, which works at all speeds, or power limits which only theoretically prevent very high speed accidents?
Even a 25kW restricted bike will put 90-100MPH on the clock.
It's quite possible to get seriously injured or killed without ever going above 50km/h.

New Regulations January 2013

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