New Regulations January 2013

prunudo

carsQhere wrote: »

A person who today holds a current A permit and who is over 24 will also get an A2 if s/he passes the driving test after 19 January 2013. However that person can take out a new category A learner permit after 19 January 2013 and sit the test and get the full unrestricted A licence. In doing this s/he will have to take certain Initial Basic Training (IBT) modules tailored to riding the more powerful bikes.

MAG Ireland will have to go back to the RSA on this, and I believe this is being done.

I wonder will that mean people having to wait another 6 months before they are allowed to apply for the test/full license/ibt5. And will it be a full driving test all over again at a cost of €75 or what ever it is now.

rat_race

ninja900 wrote: »

What's the correlation between the power output of a bike and the speed it'll be ridden at in the real world? None. It depends on the rider.

What I said.

ninja900 wrote: »

No, you're not getting it. It doesn't matter what type of bike you have or how powerful it is when some idiot drives into you, and a large number of bike accidents are not the rider's fault at all.

No, I do "get" it. This is what I said. However, what does matter is the speed two parties are going when that collision happens. And the time both parties have to react when they realise a collision is going to happen.

ninja900 wrote: »

Speak for yourself. A rider who doesn't learn discipline is unlikely to last long, no matter what bike they're riding

Doesn't matter how long they'll "last", or change the point. Give someone power, then there's the possiblity to use it. It's not called "power" for no reason.

ninja900 wrote: »

Any sane rider will be more cautious on an unfamiliar bike, not less. More powerful bikes have larger brakes and larger tyre contact patches, and so usually have shorter stopping distances.

That's a technical point and nothing to do this with (although, I disagree, my lightest bike has much less stopping distance that bigger bikes I've tested).

ninja900 wrote: »

Who exactly is doing 200MPH on the road?

It was an example, obviously.

ninja900 wrote: »

So which is better - rider skill and judgement, which works at all speeds, or power limits which only theoretically prevent very high speed accidents?
Even a 25kW restricted bike will put 90-100MPH on the clock.

Apples and oranges, and nothing to do with the point. The original statement is that power means nothing when it comes to danger. I used the simple example of two identical bikes and two identical skilled riders: who's more likely to have the more serious accident? It's basic common sense & basic logic.

I'm not talking about rider experience VS restrictors.

ninja900 wrote: »

It's quite possible to get seriously injured or killed without ever going above 50km/h.

But less likely.


I'm all for direct access to any size bikes. No issues with that at all, I'd love that. But using the argument that power means nothing is not going to convince the RSA/EU, because it simply is not true.

daenerysstormborn3

jvan wrote: »

I wonder will that mean people having to wait another 6 months before they are allowed to apply for the test/full license/ibt5. And will it be a full driving test all over again at a cost of €75 or what ever it is now.

I have been told by the RSA that I won't have to wait a further 6 months.

carsQhere

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I have been told by the RSA that I won't have to wait a further 6 months.

By any chance did you get that in writing? It contradicts the latest MAG Ireland has heard from them I'm afraid.

As it stands right now, anyone on a current learner permit in category A who passes the test after 19th January 2013 will get an A2. They will then have to take out a new LP in cat. A and the six month wait would apply in that case. :mad:

It's a proper mess for the people caught between the two systems.

carsQhere

rat_race wrote: »

Apples and oranges, and nothing to do with the point. The original statement is that power means nothing when it comes to danger. I used the simple example of two identical bikes and two identical skilled riders: who's more likely to have the more serious accident? It's basic common sense & basic logic.

This is going off topic somewhat, so late's take it back to your original point. There are two identical Bandit 600's travelling along a road side by side at 50kph ridden by twins with identical skills and experience. One bike is restricted, the other is full power. A driver pulls out of a side road without looking and the riders simultaneously collide with the car.

You're saying the rider of the unrestricted bike will be more seriously hurt.

Not a realistic scenario? OK, Two identical Bandit 600's, two identical riders, one bike restricted one not.

Rider A is approaching a roundabout at 60kph braking gently when s/he hits a patch of diesel and drops the bike as a result of which s/he sprains a wrist.

Rider B is approaching a roundabout at 60kph braking gently when s/he hits a patch of diesel and drops the bike as a result of which s/he sprains a wrist.

Which one was riding the full power bike?

carsQhere

rat_race wrote: »

Yeah, there is absolutely no correlation between speed and the severity of accidents. At all. Ever. It's a scam. (hint of sarcasm there)

Quote the post where I said there was no correlation between speed and accident severity please.

If you want to open a new thread on he subject, I'll happily chime in because I'm facinated by the fact that you are happy to equate power output with the likelyhood of being in an accident, but failed to provide a single coherent example of how a more powerful bike is a higher risk factor than a less powerful one.

daenerysstormborn3

carsQhere wrote: »

By any chance did you get that in writing? It contradicts the latest MAG Ireland has heard from them I'm afraid.

As it stands right now, anyone on a current learner permit in category A who passes the test after 19th January 2013 will get an A2. They will then have to take out a new LP in cat. A and the six month wait would apply in that case. :mad:

It's a proper mess for the people caught between the two systems.

Yep, got it by e-mail.

"Thanks for your query. If you sit your test after the 19th January 2013 you will have to sit module 5 of the IBT prior to sitting the driving test. As you hold your learners permit for more than 6 months there will be no waiting period before you sit your test."

But, as I already said, it wouldn't exactly be outside the realms of possibility that the RSA are giving out incorrect information.

Hotblack Desiato

rat_race wrote: »

No, I do "get" it. This is what I said. However, what does matter is the speed two parties are going when that collision happens. And the time both parties have to react when they realise a collision is going to happen.

You are making the mistake of equating the power output of a bike with the speed it will be ridden at. That is true on the racetrack. It isn't usually true on the road.

The original statement is that power means nothing when it comes to danger. I used the simple example of two identical bikes and two identical skilled riders: who's more likely to have the more serious accident? It's basic common sense & basic logic.

Common sense is often found to be wrong when we look at hard data instead of what people think to be true. The data on motorcycle accidents does not support a link between more powerful bikes and accident risk.

E.g. MAIDS report which studied over 1800 motorcycle accidents in the EU, found that mopeds were more likely to be involved in an accident than average - but powerful bikes were not.

chasm

ninja900 wrote: »

E.g. MAIDS report which studied over 1800 motorcycle accidents in the EU, found that mopeds were more likely to be involved in an accident than average - but powerful bikes were not.

Yet full B licence holders were allowed ride them automatically (up to 2006, was it?) I have always thought that was a daft idea - just because you can drive a car it does not mean you can ride a bike/scooter. Handling etc is just so different.

carsQhere

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Yep, got it by e-mail.

"Thanks for your query. If you sit your test after the 19th January 2013 you will have to sit module 5 of the IBT prior to sitting the driving test. As you hold your learners permit for more than 6 months there will be no waiting period before you sit your test."

But, as I already said, it wouldn't exactly be outside the realms of possibility that the RSA are giving out incorrect information.

Thank you, MAG is going back to the RSA on that one. Will update as soon as an answer comes back.

chrismon

carsQhere wrote: »

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Yep, got it by e-mail.

"Thanks for your query. If you sit your test after the 19th January 2013 you will have to sit module 5 of the IBT prior to sitting the driving test. As you hold your learners permit for more than 6 months there will be no waiting period before you sit your test."

But, as I already said, it wouldn't exactly be outside the realms of possibility that the RSA are giving out incorrect information.

Thank you, MAG is going back to the RSA on that one. Will update as soon as an answer comes back.

Very interested to hear their answer to this.

daenerysstormborn3

carsQhere wrote: »

Thank you, MAG is going back to the RSA on that one. Will update as soon as an answer comes back.

chrismon wrote: »

Very interested to hear their answer to this.

And just to clarify, my situation is that I'm 25 (so eligible for direct access) and I currently hold my learner permit for longer than 6 months and that was their response.

wolfdub

I am 33 on a restricted A after passing my test in June.

From the RSA FAQ:

Q2) I have a full Category A driving licence. How will this be affected by the new
licensing rules coming into being on 19 January 2013?

A) If you hold the highest class of full motorcycle driving licence (category A) then you
are not affected in any way, the only change to current full category A licence holders is
that if a restriction applies to your licence, that the restriction which applies for 2 years
upon holding the full licence changes from 25kW to 35kW. Once you have held your full
category A driving licence for two years, the restriction is lifted from your full licence
automatically. When you renew your licence you will be given a category A motorcycle
licence.

But does anybody know if the restriction can be lifted by going on the new advanced IBT course ?

carsQhere

The RSA have put out conflicting information on this point.

See Question 11 here: http://www.magireland.org/2012/campaigns/training/rsa-responds-on-bike-license-queries/

wolfdub

carsQhere wrote: »

The RSA have put out conflicting information on this point.

See Question 11 here: http://www.magireland.org/2012/campaigns/training/rsa-responds-on-bike-license-queries/

It's all very confusing.

daenerysstormborn3

carsQhere wrote: »

The RSA have put out conflicting information on this point.

See Question 11 here: http://www.magireland.org/2012/campaigns/training/rsa-responds-on-bike-license-queries/

So basically their e-mail response to me was a lie?

carsQhere

pixiebean22 wrote: »

So basically their e-mail response to me was a lie?

The problem appears to be that the RSA are having difficulty interpreting the directive.

I suspect they're trying to read it in conjunction with the S.I. to give an opinion in the context of the Irish legislation. Unfortunately, the S.I. is a complete disaster which skipped key aspects of the directive entirely, for example, direct access. Bear in mind that the the Irish Govt. made a dogs breakfast of the second directive back in the 90's, and you can see that we have shambles heaped on top of shambles.

The RSA have enormous resources, both human and financial, to throw at this. They should have it nailed down. That they don't raises some serious questions.

daenerysstormborn3

carsQhere wrote: »

The problem appears to be that the RSA are having difficulty interpreting the directive.

I suspect they're trying to read it in conjunction with the S.I. to give an opinion in the context of the Irish legislation. Unfortunately, the S.I. is a complete disaster which skipped key aspects of the directive entirely, for example, direct access. Bear in mind that the the Irish Govt. made a dogs breakfast of the second directive back in the 90's, and you can see that we have shambles heaped on top of shambles.

The RSA have enormous resources, both human and financial, to throw at this. They should have it nailed down. That they don't raises some serious questions.

Well they'd want to get their effing act together and pool what little cop on they have and sort this out. Giving the wrong information to people could have serious implications.

I now don't know what to think about my situation and what they told me. Is it the truth? At the end of the day, them handing out the wrong information will have no impact on them but it will have a huge impact on us.

daenerysstormborn3

Contrary to the e-mail reply I received on 30th July, I have just received the following reply from the RSA in response to my query:

On 30th July:
Thanks for your query. If you sit your test after the 19th January 2013 you will have to sit module 5 of the IBT prior to sitting the driving test. As you hold your learners permit for more than 6 months there will be no waiting period before you sit your test.

My query yesterday:
Further to your e-mail, I have since received conflicting information in relation to my original query. Could you please confirm that as I am over 24, if I wait until after 19th January 2013 to sit my full licence test and complete Module 5 of the IBT, I will obtain my full unrestricted A licence without having to fulfill any other obligations under the new licencing laws to be introduced?

Reponse on 25th September:
If you sit your driving test in category A after 19th January and you are over 24 years you must complete modules 1,3 and 5 of the IBT.

In order to sit a category A unrestricted test you must change your current learner permit after the 19th January to a new card permit before sitting the test. The reason for this is your current learner permit shows a restriction to bikes with a power output not exceeding 25kw. If you present yourself for a test with your current permit after 19th January the tester will only be able to conduct the test on a bike of that power and therefore a certificate of competency would be issued for a category A2 only.

If you present yourself for a test with a new credit card style permit after 19th January, the new permit will show no restriction and therefore you can be tested on the bigger bike. If you are successful at the test, a certificate of competency for category A with no restriction will be issued to you.

You also have the option of sitting the driving test before 19th January and if you are successful you will be issued with a certificate of competency in category A restricted. You must exchange the certificate of competency for a full licence before 19th January to obtain a full category A licence restricted to 25kw for two years from the date of issue of the full licence.

Please note that your bike must comply with the representative vehicles for the driving test before a test will be conducted. See the following link for new restrictions from 19th January. The existing representative vehicles for the practical test can also be found on our website

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Third%20Directive/Link%206%20Representative%20vehicles%20for%20the%20driving%20test%20@%2018th%20July%202012.pdf

I hope this clarifies your query.

Obviously their most recent response conflicts with what I was told 2 months ago, there's a surprise.

I have just received this second e-mail from the RSA:

If you wait until after 19/01/2013 as you are over 24 years of age you will be able to apply for a new learner permit in the A category which will be unrestricted, you will need to do modules 1 3 and 5 in the IBT. (You can apply for your test as long as you have had a Learner Permit in the A category for a 6 month period and completed your IBT).

On getting your new unrestricted A learner permit and after completing your modules 1 3 and 5 in the IBT, in order to sit a driving test in the larger bike (Category A) after the 19/01/2013 you would need to present for the test in motorcycle without sidecar, with a cylinder capacity of at least 595 cm3, and an engine power of at least 40kW.

Once you pass your test you will get the A unrestricted on your full licence.

In relation to the point in bold, I assume that they are referring to my current learner permit that I have held for more than 6 months and not the new A learner permit that I will be required to take out.

prunudo

I think anybody who can, should try to pass the test before 19th jan. You will be no worse than before these license changes come in and will have a full A after 2 years. All these extra ibt modules etc will cost you more hassle and € than it's worth from what I can see

Faith+1

jvan wrote: »

I think anybody who can, should try to pass the test before 19th jan. You will be no worse than before these license changes come in and will have a full A after 2 years. All these extra ibt modules etc will cost you more hassle and € than it's worth from what I can see

+1

Wonda-Boy

Lads I think you are all pissing against the wind until at least the powers to be sit down with the Instructors next month iirc, until then its all he said she said. And even then it might no be finalised.

Nothing that was said to anyone is correctup until now, as its all still up in the air.

I was talking to a few lads the other day and they all panicking with this new legislation coming in and alot of them on bike a few years, if they were that pushed why didnt they do the full test a few months even a year after the permit. All these people on bikes for donkey's and still no full licence, and now hitting the panic button make me laugh.

prunudo

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Lads I think you are all pissing against the wind until at least the RSA sit down with the Instructors next month, until then its all he said she said.

Nothing that was said to anyone is correct as its all still up in the air.

By which stage it will be too late for you to get a test in before Jan, when you take Christmas holidays into account etc. Unless everybody tries to apply for cancellations. But yeah you're right, sure even the RSA themselves seem to be confused by the changeover.

daenerysstormborn3

This is what I have an issue with. The RSA were handing out incorrect information and may still be doing so which will obviously effect people who currently hold learner permits, leaving them in limbo.

I also don't think a meeting with instructors is going to change the licencing system. This is the information that MAG has been provided with also. As far as I am aware, the meeting with the instructors is not for them to make changes to the system, it is for them to be told how the changes will be implemented and their new role etc.

I don't think anyone is "panicking", I think people would just like to have some correct information. 4 months before these new regulations are due to be implemented, you would think these donkeys would have their facts straight at this stage. I highly doubt anyone on bikes "donkeys years" is panicking about these changes, sure aren't they on bikes a long long time, just like myself, they want some correct information.

Wonda-Boy

From the few lads I was talking about this test business most of them are trying to get out of the 2 year restriction like its a bad thing. Anything to side step it, so what if you have to learn your trade on a 600cc bike restricted. It will still give you plenty to smile about....

I really hope they dont shelve this 2 yr restriction on any new riders, I dont care what the age as all it will do is increase the fatalities for young lads hopping on big bikes with no experience.

Hotblack Desiato

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

From the few lads I was talking about this test business most of them are trying to get out of the 2 year restriction like its a bad thing.

It is a bad thing, because:

- there is zero evidence that it reduces accidents
- there is (up until now) no way for a rider to take extra training/harder test and prove their ability on an unrestricted bike
- 2 year wait no matter what, means no incentive to take extra training.

It's straight out of the 'something must be done, this is something, let's do it' school of thinking.
When we have politicians thinking like this it's bad enough, when we have riders thinking that we need idiotic restrictions 'for our own good' then, well, the battle is lost really isn't it. How is biking going to have any future when we are willing to allow ourselves to be legislated off the road.

Wonda-Boy

Are you seriously telling me that anyone with no biking experience whatsoever passes a test after 6 mths (which proves **** all in terms of biking skill) and can instantly go out and buy an R1 or a GSXR 1000 or similar and its not going to increase accidents or fatalities????? :rolleyes:

This is not some stupid legislation to make a quick buck its to save lives and make sure young lads who can be very very impulsive live to tell the tale.

I have done extra training (Garda Bikesafe & Grade 2 Advanced) to improve on a motorbike and I am currently ticking down the 2 yr restriction , why do you need an incentive to better yourself on a bike.

You personally might think its a bad idea looking at it from your own skill set on bikes, but I can tell you there are some well dodgy lads on bikes out there I see them and ride with some of them week in week out.

The 2 year restriction might not reduce accidents but it certainly helps them from rising, sorry but I totally disagree. In terms of motorcycle safety it is a very good thing.

Hotblack Desiato

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that anyone with no biking experience whatsoever passes a test after 6 mths (which proves **** all in terms of biking skill)

Depends what you mean by skill, it's not Mondello laptimes that the test is supposed to be assessing.

and can instantly go out and buy an R1 or a GSXR 1000 or similar and its not going to increase accidents or fatalities????? :rolleyes:

After doing direct access training and passing the direct access test, yes, absolutely, there is no reason for a power restriction and that is what every other EU country allows.

This is not some stupid legislation to make a quick buck its to save lives and make sure young lads who can be very very impulsive live to tell the tale.

It is stupid legislation, the Irish government just couldn't be arsed to introduce a proper direct access bike test so they decided to just not bother and impose a blanket restriction. What is 2 years riding around by yourself going to teach you that advanced training and a proper test isn't?

I have done extra training (Garda Bikesafe & Grade 2 Advanced) to improve on a motorbike and I am currently ticking down the 2 yr restriction , why do you need an incentive to better yourself on a bike.

Some don't, many do. In the past many riders just never bothered doing the test at all. You got screwed on insurance anyway so what was the point!!!

You personally might think its a bad idea looking at it from your own skill set on bikes, but I can tell you there are some well dodgy lads on bikes out there I see them and ride with some of them week in week out.

OK so the problem there is initial training and the bike test (if they've passed it). You can't blame direct access for their bad riding because they won't have done direct access.

The 2 year restriction might not reduce accidents but it certainly helps them from rising, sorry but I totally disagree. In terms of motorcycle safety it is a very good thing.

You can't just claim that without proof, this is taking a right away from Irish motorcyclists which every other EU country allows - direct access - on the whim of a minister with no proof of any kind that it has any benefit at all apart from letting said minister claim he is 'doing something' about the 'motorcycle problem'

Wonda-Boy

Seems to me you oppose the idea of not getting the choice to vote on the issue rather then the issue itself (forced on you 2 yr restriction). Yes the government make alot of really bad laws but I am in favour of this one.

In an ideal world, sure we can get rid of the 2 yrs but we are not living in an ideal world and as I said there are alot of un-responsible people out there.

I think we will have to agree to disagree Ninja

Im going to have to go with Wonda-boy on this one,
and I'm just starting my 2 year restriction.

I dont understand the rush!
its not like you'll be able to get insured on a R1 or 1000 gsxr with 6 months experience anyway !