Media: 39% of Under 25s unemployed

NIMAN

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0726/unemployment-rate-of-39-among-15-24-cso-business.html

Reading this sad story, wondered why 15yr olds are included in the figures? Are they even of legal working age?

Is this Ireland's lost generation?

BOHtox

I'm 18. Not that I'm an idiot or anything but I definitely would not have employed me at 8.65 an hour. I think this has to come down so that lower skilled workers can put their foot in the door of employment. I spent months looking for a job until I finally found one. I hate it but I know my foot is in the door and after a few years or months I will have the experience to progress to something bigger hopefully.

ardmacha

As was pointed out on Irisheconomy, it is not as simple as that. This is is 39% of those not in education, and a substantial number of this group are in education. Of those not in education, there are graduates (mostly employed) and those with little education (most of the figure above).

Blowfish

One interesting part is the discrepancy between male and female.

For the past few years this has been put down to the loss of jobs out of the largely male construction sector. If this was the case though, you'd expect the discrepancy to be largest among those who left school in approx 2002-2006 and went straight into construction, i.e. those now in the 25-29 age bracket.

If you look at the chart on the right here however, it shows that the discrepancy is actually pretty large in the 18-24 age bracket, the vast majority of whom would have been still in school when the construction job losses happened.

It seems there's an issue where young males just out of school are either not managing to get into entry level jobs or are not pursuing third level education as much as their female counterparts. This is a problem.

Dob74

ardmacha wrote: »

As was pointed out on Irisheconomy, it is not as simple as that. This is is 39% of those not in education, and a substantial number of this group are in education. Of those not in education, there are graduates (mostly employed) and those with little education (most of the figure above).

I would say graduates are doing better but not that much better.
Most jobs do not require a degree. The world needs ditch diggers too.


39% under 25 unemployed is hardly surprising we are in the middle of the great depression. I am quite sure the numbers where the same for the last century other than a few bumps like 95 to 05.

Immigrate and dont come back like I did. This country is rotten and is set up to enrich a few corrupt elite.

Icepick

How is this possible with useful subjects such as Irish?

RATM

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting the situation like they do in Spain.

A friend remarked recently that their numbers are now so big that they have the potential to collapse the current government by sheer protest alone- 250,000 people camped out on the streets of Dublin would bring things to a head.

But that's never going to happen, but just interesting that if it did the under-25's could actually give the corrupt elite in this country a serious fright.

Hill Bicks

No one seems that bothered do they? Look at how angry people get when it comes to S/W payments on boards.ie. nearly 10,000 views. Yet this topic is of much more importance to the future of the state. We now have almost half of a whole generation out of work who will most likely have to leave the country and it gets feck all column inches in the press or on the news.

A few sgangers running riot at a gig gets worldwide attention, hours of debate and front page news for about a week. We are quiet literally sowing the seeds of our own destruction. All the entry level jobs young people used to do are now taken over by non-nationals, our young will have no concept of how to work when we ship them off and yet not many people seem to give a ****e!

Icepick

RATM wrote: »

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting the situation like they do in Spain.

A friend remarked recently that their numbers are now so big that they have the potential to collapse the current government by sheer protest alone- 250,000 people camped out on the streets of Dublin would bring things to a head.

But that's never going to happen, but just interesting that if it did the under-25's could actually give the corrupt elite in this country a serious fright.

All those tracksuit-clad guys are ready to work hard, honestly and for a fair wage and the only thing stopping them is the corrupt elite!!!

RichardAnd

Hill Bicks wrote: »

No one seems that bothered do they? Look at how angry people get when it comes to S/W payments on boards.ie. nearly 10,000 views. Yet this topic is of much more importance to the future of the state. We now have almost half of a whole generation out of work who will most likely have to leave the country and it gets feck all column inches in the press or on the news.

A few sgangers running riot at a gig gets worldwide attention, hours of debate and front page news for about a week. We are quiet literally sowing the seeds of our own destruction. All the entry level jobs young people used to do are now taken over by non-nationals, our young will have no concept of how to work when we ship them off and yet not many people seem to give a ****e!

Well said. I've always believed that this country has a massive disregard (and possibly, disrespect) for youth that is seemingly adopted by each generation when it passes through the 18-25ish age bracket. This can be seen in comments from ministers claiming that young men and women are emigrating for fun or to see the world but also, in casual remarks from more mundane persons.

Many a time have I heard a relation sumerise the difficulties young people have with something along the lines of "ah sure they're young." My answer to this is simple, that makes it all the more tragic and problematic.

It seems to me that the system here is set up to protect the older generations at the expense of the younger ones. Under 24s get less dole for no other reason than that they are young, why is this so? The public service is loaded with aged and lazy wasters who can't be fired and replaced with young individuals who might actually work. The political class is filled with middle aged and older men and women who make decisions on behalf of the young without knowing what it is they experience.

The 80s saw a a large chunk of a generation ruined. Many of the remainder no doubt grew up with a sense of good old Irish bitterness and self-loathing such that when the next generational economic meltdown arrived, they failed to see or did not care when the same process that affected them began to chew up another slice of youth.

I'm 25 now and I'm luck to have a good job and, I hope, the chance of a future in my home nation. When I'm in my 40s, I fear another recession will be on the cards because I don't see any lessons coming from this one. If that happens, I hope I don't have a young son or daughter in danger of going through this s**t.

n97 mini

RATM wrote: »

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting the situation like they do in Spain.

Protesting doesn't create any jobs. It's an exercise in blaming someone else.

Having said that here it's noticeable the amount of capable young people doing nothing. In the 80s they would have emigrated.

High levels of social welfare are to blame, as well as a culture of expectation. Neither existed in the 80s.

It's my belief that if you want something, work towards it. Don't blame other people or expect someone else to solve your problems.

djpbarry

RATM wrote: »

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting...

To what end?

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm 25 now and I'm luck to have a good job...

Really? It’s all down to luck, is it?

Degsy

n97 mini wrote: »

Having said that here it's noticeable the amount of capable young people doing nothing. In the 80s they would have emigrated.

.

OR They would've got minimum wage jobs in the retail sector,or in a pub or in a hotel washing dishes or anything at all.

When i was 19 being on the dole was considered a waster's game and it only paid 37 pounds a week anyway so you couldnt stay on it and have any sort of living standard unless you started having kids.

Almost everybody i went to school with and met later on were working in something or other from the time they left school and anybody (myself included) who went to college had a part time job to fund it...the exceptions being the detestible minority of rich kids whose fathers paid for everything.

One of the reasons there are so many foreigners working in "menial" jobs is because the younger,college-educated irish generation wouldnt work to warm themselves...they all have arrogated ideas to themselves about thier own importance.

There should be nobody on the dole in that age group unless they're physically disabled they should be either eearninng thier keep or training in some way to earn thier keep.

RichardAnd

djpbarry wrote: »

To what end?
Really? It’s all down to luck, is it?

No, it's down to my hard work and that my chosen field happens to be doing quite well at the moment. However, me finding employed was also the result of various factors that just happened to come together for me at the right time. Luck always plays a part in life because there are people far more skilled and intelligent than I whom are without employment.

I can control what skills I have and how I choose to market them, I can't control the economy that creates the need for my job and I certainly can't control the factors that, someday, might lead to me loosing my job. All of the above are beyond me thus, luck is the mistress.

goose2005

n97 mini wrote: »

Protesting doesn't create any jobs. It's an exercise in blaming someone else.

Having said that here it's noticeable the amount of capable young people doing nothing. In the 80s they would have emigrated.

They are emigrating.

High levels of social welfare are to blame, as well as a culture of expectation. Neither existed in the 80s.

In my experience, young people expect nothing - no jobs, no real prospect of recovery, emigration. And as mentioned previously, young people get reduced dole because f--- them, they're young.

It's my belief that if you want something, work towards it.

How can you work towards it if there is no work?

Don't blame other people or expect someone else to solve your problems.

The recession is other people's fault; specifically, older politicians and citizens.

Degsy wrote: »

One of the reasons there are so many foreigners working in "menial" jobs is because the younger,college-educated irish generation wouldnt work to warm themselves...they all have arrogated ideas to themselves about thier own importance.

Given that they were told for their entire youth:
"Get a good Junior Cert or you'll have to work in Tesco"
"Get a good Leaving Cert or you'll have to work in Tesco"
"Get a good degree or you'll have to work in Tesco"
...
"What, a job in Tesco is too good for ya, college boy?"

ANother reason for the predominance of immigrants is that those in school can only do summer work; those in college/training can only work part-time or summer work - immigrants can usually offer full-time work.

There should be nobody on the dole in that age group unless they're physically disabled they should be either eearninng thier keep or training in some way to earn thier keep.

Perhaps there shouldn't, but there are. Clearly

RATM wrote: »

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting the situation like they do in Spain.

A friend remarked recently that their numbers are now so big that they have the potential to collapse the current government by sheer protest alone- 250,000 people camped out on the streets of Dublin would bring things to a head.

But that's never going to happen, but just interesting that if it did the under-25's could actually give the corrupt elite in this country a serious fright.

The problem is, most Irish young people have had one foot in the departure lounge since 2007 or so. We always knew that leaving this society was much more possible than changing it.

BOHtox wrote: »

I'm 18. Not that I'm an idiot or anything but I definitely would not have employed me at 8.65 an hour. I think this has to come down so that lower skilled workers can put their foot in the door of employment. I spent months looking for a job until I finally found one. I hate it but I know my foot is in the door and after a few years or months I will have the experience to progress to something bigger hopefully.

The minimum wage is not a substantial barrier to employing someone, and given the cost of living and the paucity of social services it's not especially high.

Debtocracy

RichardAnd wrote: »

No, it's down to my hard work and that my chosen field happens to be doing quite well at the moment. However, me finding employed was also the result of various factors that just happened to come together for me at the right time. Luck always plays a part in life because there are people far more skilled and intelligent than I whom are without employment.

I can control what skills I have and how I choose to market them, I can't control the economy that creates the need for my job and I certainly can't control the factors that, someday, might lead to me loosing my job. All of the above are beyond me thus, luck is the mistress.

Quite rare. Someone not engaging in the self-serving attribution bias.

djpbarry

RichardAnd wrote: »

Luck always plays a part in life because there are people far more skilled and intelligent than I whom are without employment.

Maybe, but are really going to believe that the only thing separating you from them is happenstance?

RichardAnd wrote: »

I can control what skills I have and how I choose to market them, I can't control the economy that creates the need for my job and I certainly can't control the factors that, someday, might lead to me loosing my job.

Perhaps not, but you can display a proactive attitude and be prepared to relocate and/or change jobs, if necessary. If you lose your current job (obviously we hope that you don’t!), are you going to sit around and wait for “the economy” to deliver another? Or are you going to do something more productive?

Personally, I’m not a big believer in luck. Or should I say, I believe people make their own luck. Sure, things happen that you can’t control, but you can position yourself to be better equipped to deal with the unexpected or better prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

I absolutely hate it when people tell me I’m lucky because I’m good at whatever, or I’m lucky because I can walk/cycle to work. As if hard work and planning had absolutely nothing to do with it.

djpbarry

goose2005 wrote: »

In my experience, young people expect nothing...

Oh, I don’t know about that. I work in a research institute in London and we take in a number of summer students every year, who have generally just the one year of university under their belts. Even so, the arrogance of many is absolutely staggering. They think that, because they’re young, and because they’re tech-savvy, and because they can use Wikipedia that they can learn in 5 minutes what it has taken others 5 years to master.

Ain’t no doubt about it – those kids expect top jobs when they graduate and they will not settle for anything less.

goose2005 wrote: »

Given that they were told for their entire youth:
"Get a good Junior Cert or you'll have to work in Tesco"
"Get a good Leaving Cert or you'll have to work in Tesco"
"Get a good degree or you'll have to work in Tesco"
...
"What, a job in Tesco is too good for ya, college boy?"

That’s a fair point, although there’s obviously nothing wrong with working in Tescos. There is definitely more that could be done in schools and universities to prepare kids for the real world – my “guidance” teacher in school was absolutely hopeless. But, ultimately, it really is the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids have realistic expectations in life.

If little Johnny has been told by his parents that everything he has ever done since the day he was born has been amazing, then he's going to have a pretty hard time understanding why prospective employers don’t agree. There was an article on this in New Scientist recently, but unfortunately it’s now archived and behind a pay wall:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428622.100-the-curse-of-generation-me.html

goose2005 wrote: »

ANother reason for the predominance of immigrants is that those in school can only do summer work; those in college/training can only work part-time or summer work - immigrants can usually offer full-time work.

To be fair, you really don’t know if that’s the case. I knew several non-Irish people in Dublin who were doing degree courses part-time.

I think a big part of the problem is that, as people have become more affluent, they can afford to support their kids for longer and they are less likely to encourage them to take up summer jobs and part-time work. Doing those kind of jobs, in my opinion, is an important part of growing up. There was actually an article on this on the BBC website recently:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18720023

goose2005 wrote: »

The minimum wage is not a substantial barrier to employing someone...

Really? Would you be prepared to pay someone who had absolutely no skills or experience over €300 per week? I know I wouldn’t.

goose2005 wrote: »

...and given the cost of living and the paucity of social services it's not especially high.

Eh, yeah, it is. A single person with no dependants can do ok on >€300 per week. The cost of living in Ireland is not as high as some like to think it is. You could easily rent a nice room in Dublin for €350 or less per month. That leaves someone on the minimum wage with plenty of disposable income. And let’s be honest, they’re probably going to move up off that minimum pretty quickly if they’re any good at their job!

ressem

goose2005 wrote: »

The minimum wage is not a substantial barrier to employing someone, and given the cost of living and the paucity of social services it's not especially high.

There's a factory in Galway county which over the last 2 years has let all the recent hired floor staff go after 11 months employment to avoid the added employment rights they will gain with a year. Scraping the bottom of the barrel to avoid extra costs.

The cost to an employer of paying €8.65 is about €11 per hour according to a local accountant, a lot more if it's the only employee due to extra bookkeeping and payroll costs. And insurance risk premiums prevent 16 year olds from working in many premises.

It would be interesting to find out how many of the under 25s are registering as contractors / self-employed but only carrying out work for a single employer, as was the case for my first workplace and seems to be commonplace for siblings and family today.

MadsL

Icepick wrote: »

How is this possible with useful subjects such as Irish?

Because there is a hiring freeze in the public sector, perhaps?

RATM wrote: »

It's kinda gas the way the unemployed youth in Ireland don't seem to be too bothered about protesting the situation like they do in Spain.

A friend remarked recently that their numbers are now so big that they have the potential to collapse the current government by sheer protest alone- 250,000 people camped out on the streets of Dublin would bring things to a head.

But that's never going to happen, but just interesting that if it did the under-25's could actually give the corrupt elite in this country a serious fright.

Apathy is a national sport, why are you surprised at this? Anyone trying to change the system is very quickly brought back down with a bang. The pack bemoans the lack of jobs, but mocks the activist.

Mike87

Blowfish wrote: »

One interesting part is the discrepancy between male and female.

For the past few years this has been put down to the loss of jobs out of the largely male construction sector. If this was the case though, you'd expect the discrepancy to be largest among those who left school in approx 2002-2006 and went straight into construction, i.e. those now in the 25-29 age bracket.

If you look at the chart on the right here however, it shows that the discrepancy is actually pretty large in the 18-24 age bracket, the vast majority of whom would have been still in school when the construction job losses happened.

It seems there's an issue where young males just out of school are either not managing to get into entry level jobs or are not pursuing third level education as much as their female counterparts. This is a problem.

I didnt read the full thread so not sure if this was said already but your figures dont really add up.

My brother was in contruction (and all his mates were in construction) and they are all in the 18-24 bracket. How so? Because they all left school at 14 and 15 years of age. And I remember full well in my own class the kids were dropping out before the junior cert and the excuse was always "whats the point of staying when you could be out earning more money than both your parents wages combined".

And I think thats why so many of these people are finding it hard to go back to education. Yep. College is open for everyone. But a lot of these people (well the ones I know anyway) left school with such a bad education that they just dont last in college plus not to mention a lot of these people arent "nerds" (for want of a better word) they hated school, they hate the thoughts of going back to school and even if you could convince them to go back to school they dont want the end result of working in an office, or computer programming or as a doctor.

FreudianSlippers

Blowfish wrote: »

One interesting part is the discrepancy between male and female.

For the past few years this has been put down to the loss of jobs out of the largely male construction sector. If this was the case though, you'd expect the discrepancy to be largest among those who left school in approx 2002-2006 and went straight into construction, i.e. those now in the 25-29 age bracket.

If you look at the chart on the right here however, it shows that the discrepancy is actually pretty large in the 18-24 age bracket, the vast majority of whom would have been still in school when the construction job losses happened.

It seems there's an issue where young males just out of school are either not managing to get into entry level jobs or are not pursuing third level education as much as their female counterparts. This is a problem.

The problem is that there is little to no incentive for them to work. They are paid by the state to do nothing and most of their mates are not working either and are in the same position. I'd be interested to see the socio-economic breakdown of unemployed males 18-24.

deisedave

I am under twenty five and unemployed but start college in September, it does kind of feel that my generation is paying the price of the past generation. I turned eighteen in 2008 right when the recession started and its been an uphill battle to get anything a course or job since then.

Hopefully after I got a bit of education I can pick some kind of job up because I don't feel its fair to expect all young people to just emigrate.

Mike87

deisedave wrote: »

Hopefully after I got a bit of education I can pick some kind of job up because I don't feel its fair to expect all young people to just emigrate.

I dont think anyone expects you to emmigrate. QUite the opposite in fact.

However they do expect you to go to college get your masters and then come out and work any damn job you can get as long as it takes for this recession to pass over.

THe problem with this is, supposing your come out of college at 22/23. Then you get a job cleaning toilets and this crap economy holds out for another 4 or 5 years. THat means your hitting 30 by the time you even get to start your career. And lets face it, at 30 most people would be nearly wanting to buy their first house, have kids etc.... All of which require you to have a lot of savings.

RichardAnd

Mike87 wrote: »

I dont think anyone expects you to emmigrate. QUite the opposite in fact.

However they do expect you to go to college get your masters and then come out and work any damn job you can get as long as it takes for this recession to pass over.

THe problem with this is, supposing your come out of college at 22/23. Then you get a job cleaning toilets and this crap economy holds out for another 4 or 5 years. THat means your hitting 30 by the time you even get to start your career. And lets face it, at 30 most people would be nearly wanting to buy their first house, have kids etc.... All of which require you to have a lot of savings.

Getting a job cleaning toilets with a masters degree is probably as hard as getting a decent job that requires a masters in the first place. It's a case of over-qualification, the manager of the business wherein the said toilets reside will see the masters on the application form and think "right, this guy will be gone as soon as something decent comes up." Employers want people who will stay for a long as they need them and whilst one could certainly remove the masters from their CV, it only creates the issue of explaining where they have been for 4-5 years.

This is something that alot of fools on this board and abroad don't understand or wish to grasp. It irritates me hugely when I hear someone in a well paid job say something like "shure you can get a job in Aldi or Tesco instead of drawing the dole." This sentence is often accompanied by the addendum "that's what I did in the 80s." When such jobs come up, there is an army of people who are able to fill them and this is adduced to stories of cashier jobs in a filling station getting 400+ applications.

Perhaps, the next time a young man or woman decides to relate the truth of just how mirthless life can be sometimes, a man or woman who believes themselves to be safe and secure will think before offering condescending remarks. Offering constructive advice in a polite manner is great, being a supercilious muppet isn't.

EDIT: mild sarcasm is not being directed at the quoted poster, nor anyone else . . .

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

Personally, I’m not a big believer in luck. Or should I say, I believe people make their own luck. Sure, things happen that you can’t control, but you can position yourself to be better equipped to deal with the unexpected or better prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

I absolutely hate it when people tell me I’m lucky because I’m good at whatever, or I’m lucky because I can walk/cycle to work. As if hard work and planning had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Thats all fair enough, however many environmental factors most likely contributed to putting you in to a position where you could avail of the opportunities presented to you.

Not everyone in society has these supports.

Debtocracy's post is pertinent to this.

djpbarry

RichardAnd wrote: »

Getting a job cleaning toilets with a masters degree is probably as hard as getting a decent job that requires a masters in the first place. It's a case of over-qualification, the manager of the business wherein the said toilets reside will see the masters on the application form and think "right, this guy will be gone as soon as something decent comes up."

Whereas the manager is thinking that someone without a masters is planning on cleaning toilets for the rest of their lives?

ChRoMe wrote: »

Thats all fair enough, however many environmental factors most likely contributed to putting you in to a position where you could avail of the opportunities presented to you.

And how would that make me any different to the vast majority of people in Ireland?

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

And how would that make me any different to the vast majority of people in Ireland?

It wouldnt make you any different to other people who are considered "middle/upper class" in the socio economic sense. However that is not all the people in the country. This provides the context on how you are "lucky" to have been born into a situation where these supports and opportunities exist.

In essence the point that is being made is that, its in addition to your hard work that you have achieved your success. However the hard work was not in isolation.

Mike87

RichardAnd wrote: »

Getting a job cleaning toilets with a masters degree is probably as hard as getting a decent job that requires a masters in the first place. It's a case of over-qualification, the manager of the business wherein the said toilets reside will see the masters on the application form and think "right, this guy will be gone as soon as something decent comes up." Employers want people who will stay for a long as they need them and whilst one could certainly remove the masters from their CV, it only creates the issue of explaining where they have been for 4-5 years.

This is something that alot of fools on this board and abroad don't understand or wish to grasp. It irritates me hugely when I hear someone in a well paid job say something like "shure you can get a job in Aldi or Tesco instead of drawing the dole." This sentence is often accompanied by the addendum "that's what I did in the 80s." When such jobs come up, there is an army of people who are able to fill them and this is adduced to stories of cashier jobs in a filling station getting 400+ applications.

Perhaps, the next time a young man or woman decides to relate the truth of just how mirthless life can be sometimes, a man or woman who believes themselves to be safe and secure will think before offering condescending remarks. Offering constructive advice in a polite manner is great, being a supercilious muppet isn't.

EDIT: mild sarcasm is not being directed at the quoted poster, nor anyone else . . .

Well lets be honest here, certain degrees are pretty much worthless in 'the real world' and employers know this and will exploit it. My sister for example did her PHd on early American literature, her first and only employer has been Aldi. And listening to what she tells me, most of her collegues (in the management end) have "worthless" degrees backing them too. I cant speak for other employers, but when shes doing interviews I know shes inclined to go for the people with a degree so long as its not IT.

juan.kerr

Amongst non-Irish nationals, Nigerians had the highest unemployment rate at 39% (down from 45% in 2006)

Interesting. So back in 2006, as close as we got to full employment, 45% unemployment for Nigerians in the 15-24 age group.

DonnaMarieAva

I know it isn't a good thing that people can't find a job in this economic crisis, but at least it's pushing people, especially younger people under 25, to go into 3rd level education to up skill. I'm 18, tried so hard to find a job and couldn't. I applied to a TI and now I'm starting a level 8 course just down the road from where I live!

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

It wouldnt make you any different to other people who are considered "middle/upper class" in the socio economic sense.

Why are you assuming that I’m from a “middle/upper class” background? Like many people in Ireland who were born in the 70’s and 80’s, I’m from what would be considered a “working class” background (but then, pretty much everyone was 20+ years ago) but I attended university. It’s hardly unusual in this day and age. Most of the people I went to school with went on to third-level.

djpbarry

Mike87 wrote: »

My sister for example did her PHd on early American literature, her first and only employer has been Aldi. And listening to what she tells me, most of her collegues (in the management end) have "worthless" degrees backing them too.

Why are you dismissing your sister’s achievement as “worthless”?

Mike87 wrote: »

I cant speak for other employers, but when shes doing interviews I know shes inclined to go for the people with a degree so long as its not IT.

Well in that case, she’s not doing a very good job as a recruiter, because you can be absolutely sure that other employers are far more interested in actual skills and experience.

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

Why are you assuming that I’m from a “middle/upper class” background? Like many people in Ireland who were born in the 70’s and 80’s, I’m from what would be considered a “working class” background (but then, pretty much everyone was 20+ years ago) but I attended university. It’s hardly unusual in this day and age. Most of the people I went to school with went on to third-level.

I assumed (correctly as it turns out) from the views you presented and your writing style.

FWIW, saying everyone was from a working class background 20+ years ago is at the very least disingenuous

hmmm

We've turned minimum wage jobs into something expensive enough to pay for a semi-decent standard of living. That's all very well, but it means that younger people can't get a starter job (and the experience that comes with it) because very few employers are willing to pay those rates.

We need to think of minimum wage jobs as not a long term career choice. You might get your start in a minimum wage position, but it's up to you then to move "up the ladder" once you've gained the experience. Above all else the minimum wage needs to be lowered to allow employers employ extra people at the same cost - it's harsh but I suspect true.

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

I assumed (correctly as it turns out) from the views you presented and your writing style.

I asked why you had assumed I was from a middle/upper class background?

Whether or not I could be described as such now is not relevant to your original point.

ChRoMe wrote: »

FWIW, saying everyone was from a working class background 20+ years ago is at the very least disingenuous

Prior to the “boom” kicking off in the mid-to-late 90’s, Ireland was essentially a developing country – the number of people in my parents’ generation who availed of third-level education, for example, was very small. But this is somewhat beside the point.

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

I asked why you had assumed I was from a middle/upper class background?

Whether or not I could be described as such now is not relevant to your original point.
Prior to the “boom” kicking off in the mid-to-late 90’s, Ireland was essentially a developing country – the number of people in my parents’ generation who availed of third-level education, for example, was very small. But this is somewhat beside the point.

For the reasons I previously stated, you are a product of your environment, like us all.

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

For the reasons I previously stated...

What reasons? You’ve stated a conclusion that I must be from a middle/upper class background, with absolutely no supporting reasoning other than the fact that I am now, apparently (according to you), middle class. I must therefore reason that you make this assumption about all people, which, as I have already stated, is ridiculous, especially in Ireland.

ChRoMe wrote: »

...you are a product of your environment, like us all.

To an extent, but it’s not the kind of thing you can put on your CV, is it?

Dismissing achievement, or a lack thereof, on the basis of the “environment” people were born into excuses inactivity. You’re effectively absolving people of responsibility for the situations they find themselves in. I accept that there are obviously extreme cases, but generally speaking, people in Ireland have access to educational and training resources that our parents’ and grandparents’ could only dream of – the definitions of working and middle class are now highly plastic, which is why I’m inclined to dismiss them.

For example, you’ve assumed that I am middle class (I’m still not sure why?), but there are tradesmen (who you would probably consider “working class”?) here in London who take home multiples of what I earn – they’ll have absolutely no trouble sending their kids to Uni, if that’s what they want.

Mike87

djpbarry wrote: »

Why are you dismissing your sister’s achievement as “worthless”?

Thats what she says herself. Its her biggest regret in life. Shes embarrassed to tell people where she works, and shes embarrassed to tell people what her PHd is in, as more often than not people treat her with a very smug and condescending attitude- almost as if she deserves a crap job for taking an arts course. Even her friends slag her off a bit, telling her she wasted the better part of 10 years.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well in that case, she’s not doing a very good job as a recruiter, because you can be absolutely sure that other employers are far more interested in actual skills and experience.

And just how many years experience and actual skills do you reckon a person needs to successfully stack shelves and wash floors? And training is provided to all new employees as far as I know.

RichardAnd

Mike87 wrote: »

Thats what she says herself. Its her biggest regret in life. Shes embarrassed to tell people where she works, and shes embarrassed to tell people what her PHd is in, as more often than not people treat her with a very smug and condescending attitude- almost as if she deserves a crap job for taking an arts course. Even her friends slag her off a bit, telling her she wasted the better part of 10 years.

The type of person you describe isn't worth the action of engaging in a conversation that might lead to a discussion of employment. To suggest that the knowledge acquired in the study of literature is a waste of time is a profoundly asinine suggestion and indicative of the narrow minded view of that world that so many persons are taken to.

djpbarry

Mike87 wrote: »

Thats what she says herself. Its her biggest regret in life.

Why? Is the world of American literature, and her own understanding of it, not richer for it?

Mike87 wrote: »

Shes embarrassed to tell people where she works, and shes embarrassed to tell people what her PHd is in...

Sounds like the individual in question has some serious self-esteem issues.

Mike87 wrote: »

...as more often than not people treat her with a very smug and condescending attitude- almost as if she deserves a crap job for taking an arts course. Even her friends slag her off a bit, telling her she wasted the better part of 10 years.

She needs to find herself some new friends. Preferably friends who are not philistinic morons.

Regardless of what one does with the rest of one's life, completing a PhD is a tremendous achievement and it should be recognised as such.

Mike87 wrote: »

And just how many years experience and actual skills do you reckon a person needs to successfully stack shelves and wash floors?

Well let me put it like this. Suppose I get two applications for a position that involves stacking shelves, sorting stock, etc. One application is from someone who’s been doing just that for, say, 6 months in another job, with a good reference to boot. The other application is from someone with a Masters degree in shelf stacking theory from the European Stock Management Institute, but no relevant work experience or references.

Guess who’s going to get the job, assuming both candidates exhibit similarly good attitudes.

Holocene

Mike87 wrote: »

Thats what she says herself. Its her biggest regret in life. Shes embarrassed to tell people where she works, and shes embarrassed to tell people what her PHd is in, as more often than not people treat her with a very smug and condescending attitude- almost as if she deserves a crap job for taking an arts course. Even her friends slag her off a bit, telling her she wasted the better part of 10 years.

It's a tough market for humanities graduates, no doubt. But it's sad to think we've gotten to the stage where a literature PhD is a source of embarrassment for some. Assuming she does not want to pursue a career in academia, a PhD is still a magnificent life achievement, and perhaps even more. Let's say five years down the line she tries to move into a different industry, more attuned to her interests. With the right set of circumstances and interview panel, that "useless" PhD could be what sets her apart. Cutting edge skills come and go: there will always be people out there that value education, in the old-fashioned sense.

Delancey

juan.kerr wrote: »

Interesting. So back in 2006, as close as we got to full employment, 45% unemployment for Nigerians in the 15-24 age group.

I question this figure - is it possible it includes those who had not yet been awarded refugee status and thus were barred from working ( i.e. were not actually available for work ) ?

djpbarry

Delancey wrote: »

I question this figure - is it possible it includes those who had not yet been awarded refugee status and thus were barred from working ( i.e. were not actually available for work ) ?

Yes.

Head The Wall

hmmm wrote: »

We've turned minimum wage jobs into something expensive enough to pay for a semi-decent standard of living. That's all very well, but it means that younger people can't get a starter job (and the experience that comes with it) because very few employers are willing to pay those rates.

We need to think of minimum wage jobs as not a long term career choice. You might get your start in a minimum wage position, but it's up to you then to move "up the ladder" once you've gained the experience. Above all else the minimum wage needs to be lowered to allow employers employ extra people at the same cost - it's harsh but I suspect true.

I'll agree fully with you there, on the one hand we have people getting paid minimum wage to clean toilets, McDonalds and shelf stacking etc and on the other hand there are medical device companies in Galway also paying it for jobs with a lot more responsibilities and skills. This is one of our boom areas (high tech exports) and I say this as someone who has done my own share of grafting and I'm not denigrating the former jobs but there is something seriously wrong with that disparity.

There is the option for the high tech companies to pay more but that just harks back to where we ended up a few years ago with everyone getting overpaid and that didn't end well.

not1but4

[QUOTE=Mike87;80092809when shes doing interviews I know shes inclined to go for the people with a degree so long as its not IT .[/QUOTE]
What is wrong with an IT degree?

sock puppet

hmmm wrote: »

We've turned minimum wage jobs into something expensive enough to pay for a semi-decent standard of living. That's all very well, but it means that younger people can't get a starter job (and the experience that comes with it) because very few employers are willing to pay those rates.

It's funny. It can be cheaper to hire younger workers. Minors are entitled to 70% of the minimum wage, and adults are only entitled to 80% of the minimum wage in their first year of work, yet every employer I know of bar one pays all staff the full wage no matter what age they are.

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

What reasons? You’ve stated a conclusion that I must be from a middle/upper class background, with absolutely no supporting reasoning other than the fact that I am now, apparently (according to you), middle class. I must therefore reason that you make this assumption about all people, which, as I have already stated, is ridiculous, especially in Ireland.
To an extent, but it’s not the kind of thing you can put on your CV, is it?

Dismissing achievement, or a lack thereof, on the basis of the “environment” people were born into excuses inactivity. You’re effectively absolving people of responsibility for the situations they find themselves in. I accept that there are obviously extreme cases, but generally speaking, people in Ireland have access to educational and training resources that our parents’ and grandparents’ could only dream of – the definitions of working and middle class are now highly plastic, which is why I’m inclined to dismiss them.

For example, you’ve assumed that I am middle class (I’m still not sure why?), but there are tradesmen (who you would probably consider “working class”?) here in London who take home multiples of what I earn – they’ll have absolutely no trouble sending their kids to Uni, if that’s what they want.

Your attitudes towards education and work, were the reasons I specified. Look, I'm not excusing any sort of inactivity. All I'm simply saying is that theoretically if you take two people with the same skills, work ethic and qualifications/experience. The person from a middle class background will be more successful in a traditional professional setting.

So for anyone to attach their level of success to purely the work/study they have completed, it is dismissing the very real and present effect of modern society's class structure. Thats it.

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

All I'm simply saying is that theoretically if you take two people with the same skills, work ethic and qualifications/experience. The person from a middle class background will be more successful in a traditional professional setting.

Why?!? That is an absolutely bizarre statement.

ChRoMe wrote: »

So for anyone to attach their level of success to purely the work/study they have completed, it is dismissing the very real and present effect of modern society's class structure.

“Class structure” is only visible to those who want to see it.

Qualify your statement in some way. Are you trying to say that, in a country like Ireland, where education up to third level is essentially free (relative to the UK or US, for example), that there is a lack of social mobility? Because from my perspective, there are few barriers standing in the way of someone who wants to go and get themselves a degree, for example, regardless of their background.

ChRoMe

djpbarry wrote: »

Why?!? That is an absolutely bizarre statement.
“Class structure” is only visible to those who want to see it.

Qualify your statement in some way. Are you trying to say that, in a country like Ireland, where education up to third level is essentially free (relative to the UK or US, for example), that there is a lack of social mobility? Because from my perspective, there are few barriers standing in the way of someone who wants to go and get themselves a degree, for example, regardless of their background.

Essentially free? Far far from it.... Yes it is only visible to those that choose to see it, however that doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

Your denial or ignorance of the class system is precisely why I previously assumed you were from a middle class background (I am too, FWIW).

There are many indirect factors that can influence such mobility. Things like societal/family expectations, subconscious discrimination based on background (things like accent, speech patterns etc).

My ex girlfriend had a job with a well known Irish university where she travelled the country giving talks to disadvantaged students regarding the options available to them at third level. Its far from a level playing field.

djpbarry

ChRoMe wrote: »

Essentially free? Far far from it...

No, it isn’t. Taking third level as an example, the registration fee (or whatever it’s called) represents a tiny fraction of the actual cost of the course. What’s more, I believe such fees are covered for those in receipt of maintenance grants.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Your denial or ignorance of the class system is precisely why I previously assumed you were from a middle class background (I am too, FWIW).

Well, first of all, you assumed wrong. Secondly, I’m waiting for you to produce evidence of this endemic classism of which you speak?

And finally, given that you are from a “middle-class” background and I am (apparently) from a “working class” background, perhaps you could outline for me some of the difficulties I may have faced in making the ascent to “middle class” that you did not have to contend with in your life?

ChRoMe wrote: »

Y There are many indirect factors that can influence such mobility.

But such mobility still happens. All the time. This suggests to me that the barriers to social mobility are pretty low for most. There will obviously be exceptions – I’ve already admitted as much. But generally speaking, there is little stopping anyone from, for example, pursuing a degree, regardless of background.

ChRoMe wrote: »

YMy ex girlfriend had a job with a well known Irish university where she travelled the country giving talks to disadvantaged students...

Genuine question: define “disadvantaged” in this context.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its far from a level playing field.

I never said the playing field was completely level. However, I think you’re seriously over-stating the advantage held by those from a “middle-class” background.