Mitt Romney and the 'Negro Question'

Chazz Michael Michaels

I recalled a question that Christopher Hitchens posed that pointed out the fact that the LDS did not permit African Americans to becomes priests up until 1978. Hitchens wondered what Romney's views were on being an adult member of a (then) racist organisation, and I thought that this was an interesting question. Did he oppose this policy or not? Has this ever been addressed by Romney?

Before people fly off the handle on the title, it's a reference to the declaration by the LDS in the 40s.

20Cent

His mormanism doesn't seem to but that much of an issue to Americans though it probably should be imo. Black people were not allowed join until 1978 which is very recent really and Romney became a bishop soon afterwards. Doubt republicans care and anyone bringing it up will prob be accused of being against religion or somesuch.

Manach

or mention in passing a certain Rev. Wright.

Amerika

Why not hear about his viewpoints on the matter right from the horses mouth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ek_jkwGg3I

Chazz Michael Michaels

Amerika wrote: »

Why not hear about his viewpoints on the matter right from the horses mouth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ek_jkwGg3I

I will watch it when I get home, thanks.

20Cent

Amerika wrote: »

Why not hear about his viewpoints on the matter right from the horses mouth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ek_jkwGg3I

So he was a member of a church that went against some of his core beliefs at the time?

Chazz Michael Michaels

20Cent wrote: »

Amerika wrote: »

Why not hear about his viewpoints on the matter right from the horses mouth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ek_jkwGg3I

So he was a member of a church that went against some of his core beliefs at the time?

I haven't watched the video, but that would be my question. Either he supported the policy, or he was a member of an organisation that supported this policy.

Whether you oppose it or not, if you are a member then surely some part of you accepts it, no? Was he publicly opposed to it back then, or secretly?

Nodin

20Cent wrote: »

So he was a member of a church that went against some of his core beliefs at the time?

He never inhaled those church policies.

Overheal

With all the Catholic child rapings and the number of practicing Catholics that don't condone child rape, I find this whole tangent hard to swallow as something politically noteworthy.

aloyisious

His remarks about his church and blacks seem carefully worded, he's happy that it allows blacks to have happiness in the here-after. One can suppose from that that he means blacks are welcome in his church so that they can gain access to the here-after. He said that he had stated where he stood with regards to him and his church and discrimination, that in the eyes of God there was no discrimination as to who entered heaven. He did not say that his church was wrong to discriminate against blacks.

It would have been easier for him to simply say "I am happy that blacks are welcome in my church in the here and now" rather than seem to reserve that welcome to their entry to the here-after. That seem's akin to saying it's only a policy to save their souls, like the LDS baptism of the dead. He's able to remember exactly where he was when he heard in 1978 that blacks were welcome in his church.

I'm sceptical about a politician who has dual duties as a public representative and a member of the LDS hierarchy, a bishop. I suspect he feel's and see's that he can't directly say his church was wrong to discriminate against blacks. for fear of losing voters and damaging himself within his church.

Amerika

So you have come to bury Romney, not appraise him?

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

With all the Catholic child rapings and the number of practicing Catholics that don't condone child rape, I find this whole tangent hard to swallow as something politically noteworthy.

Raping kids isn't a tenant of Catholicism, black people being inferior to whites was a tenant of Mormanism while Romney was practicing it.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Amerika wrote: »

So you have come to bury Romney, not appraise him?

Let me explain my thought process.

1. I saw him on the news, about the gaffe
2. I remembered the Hitchens Q
3. I thought I would ask here

No burying, no agenda, just curiousity.

If you ask me, his stance back then either makes him a racist or a coward who is afraid to stand up for what he believes in. Both are unfit presidents.

joseph brand

20Cent wrote: »

Raping kids isn't a tenant of Catholicism, black people being inferior to whites was a tenant of Mormanism while Romney was practicing it.

Mormonism and Black Skin

“But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) cannot escape their racist past. For nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church had taught that ALL blacks were cursed. Hence, a black Mormon male could not hold the highly regarded LDS Priesthood1 because of his dark skin. And since he could not hold this Priesthood, he could not enter the Mormon Temple.

Joseph Smith first president, prophet, and founder of the Mormon Church:


Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218; emphasis added)

Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin.

http://christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

Romney was a bishop, preaching this disgusting garbage to a sorry crowd. He also went off on some missionary work spending two and a half years in France, which coincidentally helped him avoid the draft for Vietnam. Funny how the rich kids never get to go fight for their country, awwww. "Daddy wouldn't let me".

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

So you have come to bury Romney, not appraise him?

You seem to feel Romney is beyond reproach on any issue.

Amerika

briankeating wrote: »

You seem to feel Romney is beyond reproach on any issue.

No, the original OP stated "Did he oppose this policy or not? Has this ever been addressed by Romney?"

I thought of no better answer than to provide Romeny’s own addressing of the very issue. Romney’s father marched with Martin Luther King Jr. His mother was a civil rights crusader. These values regarding the treatment of Blacks were instilled in their son. Yet look at the majority of useless and hateful comments after my post. It is apparent most decided to ignore Romney’s own views on the matter and just commend him anyway. Therefore I think my subsequent post was apropos and hit the nail on the head.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

No, the original OP stated "Did he oppose this policy or not? Has this ever been addressed by Romney?"

I thought of no better answer than to provide Romeny’s own addressing of the very issue. Romney’s father marched with Martin Luther King Jr. His mother was a civil rights crusader. These values regarding the treatment of Blacks were instilled in their son. Yet look at the majority of useless and hateful comments after my post. It is apparent most decided to ignore Romney’s own views on the matter and just commend him anyway. Therefore I think my subsequent post was apropos and hit the nail on the head.

First time I've seen that interview. I cede the point.

poeticseraphim

Overheal wrote: »

With all the Catholic child rapings and the number of practicing Catholics that don't condone child rape, I find this whole tangent hard to swallow as something politically noteworthy.

Basically organised religion has a lot to answer for.

But child abuse is illegal and priests did it in secret and it was against church law officially....and the policy regarding minorities in mormonism was public and a part of mormon church policy.

Did his oppose the policy ..i would say he did..


However have republicans used racism in this campaign ...yes i feel so.



I think it has also backfired.

Overheal

the church also has a long history of feeling that it is above reproach of anything but itself. Dating back over 1000 years, really, before Catholicism was even properly rooted; they felt their cardinals and bishops were above the law of the land and that sovereign nations had no authority to prosecute them.

You also have a lot of people who work for Chik Fil A that support Gay Marriage. Or that are gay themselves.

Being part of an organization as wide reaching as Mormonism doesn't make you a racist. It might associate you with them, but it doesn't make you one.

neiphin

Overheal wrote: »

the church also has a long history of feeling that it is above reproach of anything but itself. Dating back over 1000 years, really, before Catholicism was even properly rooted; they felt their cardinals and bishops were above the law of the land and that sovereign nations had no authority to prosecute them.

You also have a lot of people who work for Chik Fil A that support Gay Marriage. Or that are gay themselves.

Being part of an organization as wide reaching as Mormonism doesn't make you a racist. It might associate you with them, but it doesn't make you one.

BUT ISNT THE WHOLE POINT , THAT ROMNEY HIMSELF WAS A HIGH RANKING MEMBER OF THAT CHURCH ,WHEN THOSE BELIEFS WERE THOUGHT

southsiderosie

neiphin wrote: »

BUT ISNT THE WHOLE POINT , THAT ROMNEY HIMSELF WAS A HIGH RANKING MEMBER OF THAT CHURCH ,WHEN THOSE BELIEFS WERE THOUGHT

It is said that in the U.S., 11 o'clock on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of the week.

That said, I think a lot of religious organizations have come a long way on race issues in the last 30 years. The Southern Baptist convention just elected their first Black president - and this was an organization that was founded to support slaveholding practices in the 19th century and whose leaders actively supported segregation in the 20th. So I don't actually think that the Mormons were that far off of other, larger denominations in that regard.

Finally, I think it is interesting that people are trying to ding Romney for his church's position on blacks when the country's two largest demoninations (typo and it stays!), the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptists, are horribly regressive, even today, when it comes to their treatment of female members. Jimmy Carter actually left the Southern Baptists in 2000 because of their increasingly regressive and patriarchal stance on women's role in the church and in the home - and he was a deacon in the church.

So, yeah, I think this whole thing is much ado about nothing.

Overheal

neiphin wrote: »

BUT ISNT THE WHOLE POINT , THAT ROMNEY HIMSELF WAS A HIGH RANKING MEMBER OF THAT CHURCH ,WHEN THOSE BELIEFS WERE THOUGHT

He was high ranking was he? Was he the Pope of Mormon or something?

No need for all the caps lock either. Sheesh.

You're basically implying anyone who works for Chick Fil A's corporate HQ is a gaybasher, by the same order of logic.



This race has nothing to do with race. Y'all ought to cut the crap out.

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

He was high ranking was he? Was he the Pope of Mormon or something?

No need for all the caps lock either. Sheesh.

You're basically implying anyone who works for Chick Fil A's corporate HQ is a gaybasher, by the same order of logic.



This race has nothing to do with race. Y'all ought to cut the crap out.

He was a Bishop, pretty high ranking. Could you join a church that considered other races inferior? Comparing a religion to working in a business is not anywhere near a valid comparison.

Personally I don't think Romney is racist but he was a member of the Morman church while it preached racist ideals. It shows his lack of character more than anything else. Many of his so called values change according to what he thinks his voters want to hear this is well documented, his opinion on abortion springs to mind as one.

Reindeer

briankeating wrote: »

You seem to feel Romney is beyond reproach on any issue.

I'm not sure you could hold Romney in esteem with any other attitude. We have two relatively weak candidates heading in to this election. What it boils down to is their likability. Romney needs to woo centrists for any chance. Obama currently has them. I am not sure if being socially inept, a mormon(which, among other aspects, makes him weaker in the south than his predecessors), a tax dodger(regardless of how legal, or maybe precisely because it is legal), an animal abuser, utterly lacking in youth voter support in the primaries, and a known panderer to the very wealthy is going to change those minds. The only thing about Romney that appeals to the swing votes is Ryan - and that's not saying much yet. We'll see how well Ryan does in the coming weeks. With any luck, the GOP won't get any of Romneys gems such as "I like firing people" from Ryan. Ryan could possibly turn the fact he used welfare to help him through college into a positive, but such rhetoric doesn't jive with their current anti-big government message.

20Cent

A video showing footage of mormon rituals is going viral at the mo. Link here
http://youtu.be/6udew9axmdM

That the video images are real is not in dispute but the comments on it are being questioned. Thing is this is a secret ritual which only those who passed by interviews and who sign over 10% of their income get to see so most mormons won't have even seen this or even know what happens at these rituals.

Most religions are crazy to me but this really jumps the shark. Planet Kolob ffs! Everyone is free to believe what they like of course but the secrecy, elitism and money involved in mormonism is very suspect imo. Imagine Obama was part of something like this, secret passwords , handshakes, oaths etc etc

Benny_Cake

20Cent wrote: »

He was a Bishop, pretty high ranking. Could you join a church that considered other races inferior? Comparing a religion to working in a business is not anywhere near a valid comparison.

Personally I don't think Romney is racist but he was a member of the Morman church while it preached racist ideals. It shows his lack of character more than anything else. Many of his so called values change according to what he thinks his voters want to hear this is well documented, his opinion on abortion springs to mind as one.

A Bishop in the LDS church is not particularly high-ranking, they would be somewhat analogous to a parish priest. Mormon is has it's weird aspects and the bar on black men becoming full members (ie;joining the priesthood) was one of them. Certainly by the 1970s it was a source of embarrassment for many Mormons, not least because they had begun missionary activity in Africa. That said, reversing it was somewhat difficult without bringing the whole edifice down so it took some time, but eventually they made the right decision.

I think that bashing Romney for this is reaching just a little, unless it is suggested that all Mormons over a certain age bee barred from public office. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty to criticise Mitt Romney over, but this isn't one.

20Cent

Benny_Cake wrote: »

A Bishop in the LDS church is not particularly high-ranking, they would be somewhat analogous to a parish priest. Mormon is has it's weird aspects and the bar on black men becoming full members (ie;joining the priesthood) was one of them. Certainly by the 1970s it was a source of embarrassment for many Mormons, not least because they had begun missionary activity in Africa. That said, reversing it was somewhat difficult without bringing the whole edifice down so it took some time, but eventually they made the right decision.

I think that bashing Romney for this is reaching just a little, unless it is suggested that all Mormons over a certain age bee barred from public office. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty to criticise Mitt Romney over, but this isn't one.

I see you are a mod in the Christianity forum. It seems pretty far removed from Christianity. Also what about the secrecy behind it, secret oaths etc certainly suspicious. Most religions want to spread the word and let people know all their beliefs. Having secret rituals open only to those invited and who pay tithes seems more like a cult than a religion.