Garda vetting, a waste of time?

Fuinseog

What is the point of filling out Garda vetting forms when some schools do not apparently recognise it? I was looking at Tallaght Community school and they do their own vetting. So, even if you have been Garda vetted and cleared they will ask ou any amount of unsavoury questions and vet you again.




ADDENDUM TO A STAFF EMPLOYMENT APPLICATION FORM

The Board of Management at Tallaght Community School, Balrothery owes a duty of care to its students. The Board has a duty to satisfy itself that no person employed by the Board of Management poses a threat to students or staff. The Board of Management must therefore make certain enquiries of all applicants for employment with the Board of Management and requests you to answer the following questions.

The Board of Management undertakes that all responses furnished by you in respect of these questions, or any further clarifications on your response to these questions sought by a Selection Committee, will be treated as confidential, subject to any reporting obligations which may be imposed on the Board of Management, pursuant to “Children First” published by the Department of Health and Children, or pursuant to any legal obligation imposed on the Board of Management to facilitate the effective investigation of crime.

1. List your places and dates of residence for the past 5/10 years:

2. Were you ever the subject of an inquiry by a Health Board concerning a child welfare matter? (Tick Box)

3. Were you ever the subject of a Garda Criminal investigation arising from a complaint of child abuse? (Tick Box)

4. Were you the subject of any allegation of criminal conduct or wrongdoing towards a minor? (Tick Box)

5. Are you aware of any material circumstance in respect of your own conduct which touched/touches on the welfare of a minor
(Tick Box)

6. Have you ever had a criminal conviction? (Tick Box)



if you tick yes to any of the above you do not get Garda clearance, so why ask it again?

Lockedout

We have to have because you never know when a padeo will try to enter a classroom. However-I know for most teachers all info will go the council not the school. I doubt very much a trawl through existing teachers will turn up anything bar the odd driving offence.

Powerhouse

This looks like the work of some busybody twat on the board of management who either doesn't quite get the fact that Garda vetting exists or else is a natural a*rse coverer who is overegging the pudding in trying to look good.

Either way it's an absolute joke.

bdoo

I cant see any problem with it. It is possible that in the between initial vetting and a new job ten years later that sometging may have gone on.

You might not like it but the board of that schook would be in the sh**s if something was overlooked.

Part of the job and rightly so.

Fuinseog

bdoo wrote: »

I cant see any problem with it. It is possible that in the between initial vetting and a new job ten years later that sometging may have gone on.

You might not like it but the board of that schook would be in the sh**s if something was overlooked.

Part of the job and rightly so.

new teachers get Garda vetted every four years.

Fuinseog

Lockedout wrote: »

We have to have because you never know when a padeo will try to enter a classroom. However-I know for most teachers all info will go the council not the school. I doubt very much a trawl through existing teachers will turn up anything bar the odd driving offence.

if the school wants to do background checks like that it would take months.

even the official Garda vetting only researches Irish addresses. if you lived in another country they do not research it at all.

there are plenty of people subbing in schools for months and have never been being asked for Garda vetting.

I find the hysteria surrounding paedophiles in this country unsettling.

seavill

The school doing their own vetting is a bit dodgy as you can imagine the amount of eyes that see those forms, including BOM and how extremely confidential everything has to be, we might not have to worry about the principal but how many others need to keep their mouths shut.

It makes no sense at all seen as you have to be vetted anyway.

What is more annoying is the amount of times one person must be vetted in this country, no wonder the vetting unit are snowed under.

In the last 5 years I have been vetted by one sporting organisation 8 times once a year in one department and then for 3 other departments (WITHIN THE SAME SPORTING ORGANISATION), local youth club, school 1, school 2, school 3, school 4 (JMB form) along with proof of vetting already done for the teaching council.

I'm sure there are one or 2 I have left out it feels like I fill them out constantly, so basically
Teaching council 1
Schools 4 times while already having proof from TC
Sports body 8 times
Youth group once

thats total FOURTEEN, yes 14 times in 5 years for the same person.

There is no logic in this. I am not saying once in a lifetime is sufficient but surely one every 2 or 3 years should suffice especially when the unit are so understaffed as it is.

starfish90

It's probably not the most professional way for the school to do it but I can see why-even within 4 years a lot could have gone on and I think it puts parents at ease that its done as regularly as it is

implausible

starfish90 wrote: »

It's probably not the most professional way for the school to do it but I can see why-even within 4 years a lot could have gone on and I think it puts parents at ease that its done as regularly as it is

What about the teacher's right not to have personal details picked over by everyone from the school secretary to the BOM? There is no need for it, it's excessive. Anyone with nefarious intentions would simply lie on the bloody thing anyway!

spurious

The people these vetting procedures are supposed to protect against are extremely smart. They operate for years without being caught. 'Garda vetting' won't catch them. It might make parents feel better to think there are all these potential pervert teachers and sports coaches and whatever, but the truth is, a child is far more likely to be abused by a family member.

I'm teaching almost 30 years and I'm still waiting to be vetted. Have they even started on the backlog?

Powerhouse

spurious wrote: »

It might make parents feel better to think there are all these potential pervert teachers and sports coaches and whatever, but the truth is, a child is far more likely to be abused by a family member.

That is true and has been shown to be true. But as a society we are not prepared to acknowledge it. Media commentators don't know how to handle it either.

Powerhouse

implausible wrote: »

Anyone with nefarious intentions would simply lie on the bloody thing anyway!

Exactly. They're hardly going to write "well I'm a bit dodgy really" on the form. This is just a box-ticking exercise for the PC brigade. As has been alluded to in another post, chances are that they have many teachers of long-standing in the school who have never been vetted at any stage so if this was a genuine concern about a perceived problem they'd be trying to do that as well instead of just p*ssing off new applicants with questions already dealt with by Garda vetting. This is a PR stunt by a school BOM so they can present this as part of their policy and look good.

As a parent I would consider school to be one of the safest places for my children to be (at least in terms of dealing with teachers anyway - students are another matter) such is the self-invigilation that goes on there among staff for fear of any allegation.

Lockedout

Its worrying that schools and not the council seem to be getting this info in the case of VECs. I must raise this at union level. Its also nonsensical for a person to be vetted multiple times-one vetting form should suffice. I wonder how many volunteers back away because of a conviction from their youth or a probation Act that has nothing to do with child protection issues?

implausible

Lockedout wrote: »

Its worrying that schools and not the council seem to be getting this info in the case of VECs. I must raise this at union level. Its also nonsensical for a person to be vetted multiple times-one vetting form should suffice. I wonder how many volunteers back away because of a conviction from their youth or a probation Act that has nothing to do with child protection issues?

In my VEC, the form was sent to the VEC offices and forwarded to the Garda Vetting Unit. Now, you send the form to the TC for forwarding to the GVU. The school doesn't see it at all, at least not in my VEC.

Afaik, you do not have to disclose offences under 18 and if you do, it does not affect GV as it is not on your record. Open to correction though.

Einhard

I doubt they do their own vetting. I had to fill in such a form in a school I applied for, and I fail to see how a school board could possibly access the type of information that they demand. I imagine it's fairly onerous for the Gardai, let alone a random assortment of professionals with no powers in that area. I imagine they're just convering their collective arses on this one.

Lockedout

Einhard wrote: »

I doubt they do their own vetting. I had to fill in such a form in a school I applied for, and I fail to see how a school board could possibly access the type of information that they demand. I imagine it's fairly onerous for the Gardai, let alone a random assortment of professionals with no powers in that area. I imagine they're just convering their collective arses on this one.

Dont think its that simple. You sign a form giving the BOM authority to ask for this information. The BOm sends it onto the Garda Vetting Unit and they send it back. All of this should be through the council because I think it unfair that your principal should have access to information that is irrelevant to child protection ie drink driving but perhaps the questions asked on VEC forms only pertain to child abuse convictions/prosecutions? According to previous posters not all VECs do this so would confirm with your own what happens.

Einhard

Lockedout wrote: »

Dont think its that simple. You sign a form giving the BOM authority to ask for this information. The BOm sends it onto the Garda Vetting Unit and they send it back. All of this should be through the council because I think it unfair that your principal should have access to information that is irrelevant to child protection ie drink driving but perhaps the questions asked on VEC forms only pertain to child abuse convictions/prosecutions? According to previous posters not all VECs do this so would confirm with your own what happens.

Is that really the case? It seems a complete duplication of resources for two vetting checks to be done on the same teacher. I doubt the Garda would look too kindly on that sort of thing, but then stranger things have happened.

Mardy Bum

Einhard wrote: »

Is that really the case? It seems a complete duplication of resources for two vetting checks to be done on the same teacher. I doubt the Garda would look too kindly on that sort of thing, but then stranger things have happened.

Vice principals usually vet any sub teachers that are taken on temporarily. I'm pretty sure all this entails is a call or letter to the local gardai station.

endofrainbow

is it true that some of the garda vetting was done by students on work experience?

Fuinseog

Einhard wrote: »

I doubt they do their own vetting. I had to fill in such a form in a school I applied for, and I fail to see how a school board could possibly access the type of information that they demand. I imagine it's fairly onerous for the Gardai, let alone a random assortment of professionals with no powers in that area. I imagine they're just convering their collective arses on this one.

schools are not supposed to hire anyone who is not TC registered or Garda vetted.if you have been Garda vetted the questions outlined in post no. 1 of this thread are unnecessary.

if you have been Garda vetted for the teaching profession that vetting should suffice for work with spots or youth clubs.

seavill

It should but it does not as organisations are not allowed share data apparently.

However the most annoying part is that your teaching council vetting is no good for employment in any school I have joined, even within the same year as I was vetted by the TC

Each school I have joined I have had to be vetted again even with the proof of my TC vetting.

This makes no sense at all, makes the vetting by the TC an absolute waste of time and money

Lockedout

seavill wrote: »

It should but it does not as organisations are not allowed share data apparently.

However the most annoying part is that your teaching council vetting is no good for employment in any school I have joined, even within the same year as I was vetted by the TC

Each school I have joined I have had to be vetted again even with the proof of my TC vetting.

This makes no sense at all, makes the vetting by the TC an absolute waste of time and money

Well what exactly can they turn you down on?-if something comes back from the guards besides child related issues.

Fuinseog

Lockedout wrote: »

Well what exactly can they turn you down on?-if something comes back from the guards besides child related issues.

The issue here is how many times does a candidate have to be vetted. it is bad enough that schools insist on snail mail. One of the reasons I fork out 90 euro to the TC is so that they will take care of the Garda vetting.

seavill

Fuinseog wrote: »

The issue here is how many times does a candidate have to be vetted. it is bad enough that schools insist on snail mail. One of the reasons I fork out 90 euro to the TC is so that they will take care of the Garda vetting.

Yes that's exactly the point.

I got vetted in May finishing college for the TC, however when starting my job in September I had to be vetted again, having obviously passed the first one a few months previous. I have since been vetted for each school I have worked in, again within 12 months of the previous one along with already having my TC vetting done.

As I said it is no wonder the vetting unit are snowed under with work, and it is no wonder older staff have still not been vetted if I have been vetted 5 times in 5 years

Miss Lockhart

This is absolutely disgraceful. A principal or BOM are, imo, not entitled to any personal information about me other than that the Gardai have found no evidence I am a danger to children.

I have nothing to hide but I but I am certainly not happy for some busybody on a BOM to poke through my history of addresses. And in my experience there are plenty of busybodies on BOMs in this country!

Fuinseog

seavill wrote: »

Yes that's exactly the point.

I got vetted in May finishing college for the TC, however when starting my job in September I had to be vetted again, having obviously passed the first one a few months previous. I have since been vetted for each school I have worked in, again within 12 months of the previous one along with already having my TC vetting done.

As I said it is no wonder the vetting unit are snowed under with work, and it is no wonder older staff have still not been vetted if I have been vetted 5 times in 5 years

and until you have been vetted and in this case re-vetted you do not get full pay. until you are fully vetted you have to fork out for a commissioner of oaths.

Fuinseog

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

This is absolutely disgraceful. A principal or BOM are, imo, not entitled to any personal information about me other than that the Gardai have found no evidence I am a danger to children.

I have nothing to hide but I but I am certainly not happy for some busybody on a BOM to poke through my history of addresses. And in my experience there are plenty of busybodies on BOMs in this country!

in places like Dublin you are also often judged by your address.

StillWaters

Lockedout wrote: »

Well what exactly can they turn you down on?-if something comes back from the guards besides child related issues.

Each BOM/VEC will have their own policy whether, eg a drug offence is a no-no. The way things are now, I'd imagine anything but a clean sheet won't see you in the maybe/yes pile.

Lockedout

I think it should all be centralised with the Teaching council. I would advise all teachers here to contact their unions and ask why we are paying ninety euro to the teaching council for vetting and then this lark is going on? I would also ask the teaching council the same question. Posts here will achieve little.

I have fought long standing battles with the Teaching Council over their new code and failure to do anything about discipline. Im done with e mailing them . I did have some success-get off your arm chairs or stay on them and e mail them.

vetting@teachingcouncil.ie

implausible

Lockedout wrote: »

I think it should all be centralised with the Teaching council.

Ok, I am massively confused. Is this not the case since last September? Teachers in my school have been sending their GVs off to the TC, not the VEC.

Another huge issue is the staffing and speed of the GV unit. Every teacher, work experience student, youth worker, coach etc in the country has to be vetted repeatedly. Surely, there should be enough staff down there in Templemore to get these turned around in less than a month. I sent off GV for childcare students for their work placement and it took 3 months to come back! Nursing Studies students couldn't even start their placement until later than half-way through the course because of this issue - it's ridiculous. In this day and age, the Gardaí should just be able to stick your date of birth and PPS number into a database and ping - up pops any convictions etc.

seavill

implausible wrote: »

Ok, I am massively confused. Is this not the case since last September? Teachers in my school have been sending their GVs off to the TC, not the VEC.

Last September starting a new job in a voluntary secondary school I had to send one off to the JMB, separate to my TC vetting

Miss Lockhart

Fuinseog wrote: »

in places like Dublin you are also often judged by your address.

Yes. The last thing I need is the local Mynah Kileen (for those who remember Glenroe) making judgements about me based on where I grew up.

The Gardai are the only ones who have any real ability to do a proper background check on a person. Is this school just forwarding stuff on to them or are they going to hire a PI or what? Vetting should be carried out through the TC only and with due regard for data protection laws. I do not trust the school office staff or the local BOM reps to behave with such care.

This is something the Minister should be regulating via the TC.

Cat Melodeon

Fuinseog wrote: »

if the school wants to do background checks like that it would take months.

even the official Garda vetting only researches Irish addresses. if you lived in another country they do not research it at all.

there are plenty of people subbing in schools for months and have never been being asked for Garda vetting.

I find the hysteria surrounding paedophiles in this country unsettling.

If you have lived outside Ireland for more than 3 years, you have to get a police clearance certificate from each country you've lived in, get the certs translated by a certified translator and send them on to the Garda vetting unit. I sent off for mine from Germany - it arrived back within 5 days. Garda vetting is currently taking 8-12 weeks.

42,000 teachers are still awaiting vetting here. That is insane.

Fuinseog

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

If you have lived outside Ireland for more than 3 years, you have to get a police clearance certificate from each country you've lived in, get the certs translated by a certified translator and send them on to the Garda vetting unit. I sent off for mine from Germany - it arrived back within 5 days. Garda vetting is currently taking 8-12 weeks.

42,000 teachers are still awaiting vetting here. That is insane.

that must be new. I lived in several countries and they told me they could only examine Irish addresses. i wonder is Aine Lawlor doing all the vetting by herself?

before he summer we had a meeting regarding child protection and we were given documentation of what constitutes inappropriate behaviour. Apparently you cannot masturbate in front of the kids. There is a whole list of things like this, which is quite shocking. I wonder in the history of teaching in this country was a teacher ever caught or charged with doing some of the things outlined?

dewsbury

I note lots of talk about "Garda Vetting".

So how does it work??

I believe that is is like this.

Let's say I fill out a form with my previous 12 addresses.

Generally, the Gardai do NOT check out these 12 addresses.
On the contrary, they will typically only check out the most recent address.

If the cannot identify me from my most recent address then will they check out my previous address. And so on.

So,

1. Firstly Guards identify WHO you are. (May only require current address)
2. Then they cross check you on their offenders lists.

spurious

dewsbury wrote: »

<snip>
1. Firstly Guards identify WHO you are. (May only require current address)
2. Then they cross check you on their offenders lists.

..and if you haven't been caught or reported before, they are none the wiser, but schools are free to employ you, lulling parents into a dangerously false sense of security.

It's a terrible waste of resources and time for something which gives no protection to the children, which is presumably the point of the exercise.

bdoo

Fuinseog wrote: »

i wonder is Aine Lawlor doing all the vetting by herself?

She's retired so I doubt it

Lockedout

dewsbury wrote: »

I note lots of talk about "Garda Vetting".

So how does it work??

I believe that is is like this.

Let's say I fill out a form with my previous 12 addresses.

Generally, the Gardai do NOT check out these 12 addresses.
On the contrary, they will typically only check out the most recent address.

If the cannot identify me from my most recent address then will they check out my previous address. And so on.

So,

1. Firstly Guards identify WHO you are. (May only require current address)
2. Then they cross check you on their offenders lists.

Im not sure why you focus on the addresses. If you are in the system they will throw your name out as there will only be one you with a particular date of Birth sand your identity must be confirmed.

Lockedout

Just as an update-I e mailed my local FG TD whom I know and he will raise this issue of multiple vetting forms with the Minister/Teaching council. I would encourage you all to follow suit. Threads change little-at least an e mail might open politicians eyes to this unnecessary duplication.

dewsbury

Lockedout wrote: »

Im not sure why you focus on the addresses. If you are in the system they will throw your name out as there will only be one you with a particular date of Birth sand your identity must be confirmed.

Yes, I take the point regarding date of birth being a strong aid to identification of an individual. I don't know why the emphasis is on addresses but presumably they use date of birth too.

It is obviously a highly flawed system.
It would be very interesting to know how many people actual "FAIL" the vetting!

Fuinseog

I would say the Garda vetting is as thorough as passport checks of Irish nationals coming into the country.
it is full of loopholes, which the media love to expose. There was a Sunday Times report about three years ago, where a journo subbed in a primary school for a week and nobody asked to see any documents.

Fizzical

The DES circular which governs this is 0063/2010. It contains the rules to be followed, identifies the correct bodies etc and the form and declaration that must be signed by certain categories of employee.

Well worth reading.