London 2012

later12

Yes all done in the team jumping, just the individuals now starting at 2.30pm.

Here are the rankings

Imhof Tank

5th, and ahead of Australia, US, France - thats highly respectable.

fits

A Decent performance. But we'll never be thereabouts until serious effort is made to improve the dressage. Things need to change, starting from pony club level.

Ah_Yeah

fits wrote: »

A Decent performance. But we'll never be thereabouts until serious effort is made to improve the dressage. Things need to change, starting from pony club level.

Dressage is not emphasised enough at pony club level, a lot of people only start to take part in dressage when they see the difference it makes in the jumping.

There is a lot of stigma associated with Dressage as being "boring", but I love it, in fact I could do flatwork for hours.. I'd be dead after it, but it's a great workout for horse and rider, and great for really "busy" horses.

fits

If you cant ride a decent dressage test, you cant ride a horse imo.

later12

fits wrote: »

A Decent performance. But we'll never be thereabouts until serious effort is made to improve the dressage. Things need to change, starting from pony club level.

Think there's some evidence to suggest that's already happening
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/eventing/european-pony-championships-ireland-sweep-to-victory-with-team-and-individual-gold-medals.12647.html

fits wrote: »

If you cant ride a decent dressage test, you cant ride a horse imo.

No offence, but that sounds like an absolutely daft motto.

The various disciplines all have varying objects; be that speed, agility, restraint, whatever. If you can summon all of your aids and mental abilities to ride successfully across hunting country, or a XC course, or a racetrack, or a showjumping arena, then who is anybody to say that you 'cannot ride'?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have any hesitiation in saying that all of our eventers can ride a "decent" dressage test... this is the Olympic Games, not Nenagh Show.

fits

later12 wrote: »

No offence, but that sounds like an absolutely daft motto.
.

Its true though! On the hunting field last year I was speaking with a group of people and mentioned that I was getting flatwork lessons. The response was a 'but you dont need lessons'.

I agree that there is skill to jumping. But to get to the top levels you need to have the refinement of dressage and its just not seen as a necessary skill from the start in our equestrian culture.

And of course our eventers can ride a decent test, but its not good enough is it! Its always our bogey and we wont win medals until it improves. There's no reason why it cant. No reason why we cant do as well as the Brits at dressage, we're riding the same horses for the most part.

later12

Results from the Individuals; Aoife Clark being the best of the Irish.

later12

fits wrote: »

Its true though! On the hunting field last year I was speaking with a group of people and mentioned that I was getting flatwork lessons. The response was a 'but you dont need lessons'.

But by and large, you don't need as vigourous flatwork experience for hunting; they were presumably speaking in the context of hunting. I've known some heroic hunters in their 60s and 70s whose courage and ability I would love to be put in the same league with, yet they probably couldn't shoulder-in to save their lives. There are no hard and fast rules about what riding must entail.

That was my point about all of the displines having their own objects. I agree that our dressage needs work, but if the ponies are anything to go on, that may be happening down the line.

Irish grassroots riding has changed immeasurably even in my lifetime (and I'm 25). I remember when I was starting out in pony club, the idea of someone not being interested in hunting or racing was almost quaint in our club.

We have traditionally been a more 'rustic' and faster horse people than the more measured and dressage orientated Europeans. But yes dressage has grown up in the past few years, and the demographics of equestrianism have changed so that disciplines like that have seen progress - cue the pony championships. We are still a heavily speed oriented country, for good reason of course, and it won't happen overnight.

Imhof Tank

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

Dressage is not emphasised enough at pony club level, a lot of people only start to take part in dressage when they see the difference it makes in the jumping.

There is a lot of stigma associated with Dressage as being "boring", but I love it, in fact I could do flatwork for hours.. I'd be dead after it, but it's a great workout for horse and rider, and great for really "busy" horses.

There would be relatively few pony clubbers involved in pure dressage or combined training, but most are doing one day events all summer from under 12 level up so they are doing plenty of tests.

There is a also a view in the pony club that you will get nowhere in pure dressage without a specialist pony - not an option for most parents looking for all rounders to do a bit of everything.

IMO people are being unnecessarily negative here - we are world class in practically every equestrian pursuit with the exception of pure dressage. Putting greater emphasis on dressage would mean less jumping and that will drive kids away.

Have we ever even finished higher than 5th anyway?

Ah_Yeah

Imhof Tank wrote: »

There would be relatively few pony clubbers involved in pure dressage or combined training, but most are doing one day events all summer from under 12 level up so they are doing plenty of tests.

There is a also a view in the pony club that you will get nowhere in pure dressage without a specialist pony - not an option for most parents looking for all rounders to do a bit of everything.

IMO people are being unnecessarily negative here - we are world class in practically every equestrian pursuit with the exception of pure dressage. Putting greater emphasis on dressage means less jumping and that will drive kids away.

Have we ever even finished higher than 5th anyway?

I never said that it was pure dressage people should be involved in, but from someone who worked in a yard teaching pony club kids for quite a while, they were just not interested in flatwork full stop until they realised it was quite important. They just wanted to warm up and go straight to doing a grid or a course of fences.

I just think it's really important to stress the importance of flatwork, not necessarily pure dressage.

fits

later12 wrote: »

yet they probably couldn't shoulder-in to save their lives.

I'm not even talking about shoulder-in. I'm talking about riding a decent circle, about having your horse supple and bending correctly with hindquarters engaged. Hell, I'm talking about riding a horse in a straight line.

These skills are useful in all spheres, even in hunting. A lot of kids just want to get up and go hell for leather over fences, and thats great too but every rider should have the basics in place. Basics of balance and suppleness and responsiveness.

Imhof Tank

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

I never said that it was pure dressage people should be involved in, but from someone who worked in a yard teaching pony club kids for quite a while, they were just not interested in flatwork full stop until they realised it was quite important. They just wanted to warm up and go straight to doing a grid or a course of fences.

I just think it's really important to stress the importance of flatwork, not necessarily pure dressage.

99% of active pony club members do one day events and therefore cant avoid dressage - even if they want to.

Its not that the importance of flatwork dawns on them one day and they all volunteer for extra dressage sessions.

The point was being made that the pony club arent putting enough emphasis on dressage. People can argue about how much is "enough" but its wrong to imply that dressage doesnt feature full stop.

Ah_Yeah

Imhof Tank wrote: »

99% of active pony club members do one day events and therefore cant avoid dressage - even if they want to.

Its not that the importance of flatwork dawns on them one day and they all volunteer for extra dressage sessions.

The point was being made that the pony club arent putting enough emphasis on dressage. People can argue about how much is "enough" but its wrong to imply that dressage doesnt feature full stop.

It may have changed in recent times, as the last time I taught pony club would have been about 3 years ago.

Imhof Tank

fits wrote: »

A lot of kids just want to get up and go hell for leather over fences, .

On for example the hunter trials scene, yes I would agree.

But the kids you are referring to are not representative of all young riders in Ireland.

There is a very structured route to follow up through the pony club - which involves plenty of flatwork. The pony club model has given us most of our top eventers, showjumpers and jockeys so it cant be that inadequate in terms of teaching the basics.

later12

fits wrote: »

I'm not even talking about shoulder-in. I'm talking about riding a decent circle, about having your horse supple and bending correctly with hindquarters engaged. Hell, I'm talking about riding a horse in a straight line.

These skills are useful in all spheres, even in hunting.

Ah ok, there I do agree with you.

But that's just basic riding; the part I took issue with was riding a decent dressage score being a pre-requisite for being 'able to ride', which I would have taken to mean at least an Elem or Medium level of dressage. If you're talking about prelim/ novice tests as basics that riders in all disciplines should be able to manage, fair enough.

Imhof Tank

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

It may have changed in recent times, as the last time I taught pony club would have been about 3 years ago.

Dont know about that. Ive been going to one day events with my kids for more than 3 years and there has always been a huge emphasis on the one day event qualifiers, championships etc.

The point I am making - dont accuse the pony club of being uninterested in dressage or blame it for Ireland's failure to medal at the Olympics.

Ah_Yeah

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Dont know about that. Ive been going to one day events with my kids for more than 3 years and there has always been a huge emphasis on the one day event qualifiers, championships etc.

The point I am making - dont accuse the pony club of being uninterested in dressage or blame it for Ireland's failure to medal at the Olympics.

Oh not at all, I think I picked up on a post and went off into a tangent of my own about the importance of flatwork

I think that our riders performed really well in the dressage. And regarding the pony club, there were always kids who were involved heavily in eventing and dressage, but they were always primarily interested in jumping. Which, as a kid, is what I was interested in too.

Esroh

Firstly I'll add my congrates to the Team. Remember this its their results in non-championship events that got us the 5 riders to the Olympics as they missed out on automatic qualification from Euro/World championships. This has come about by working on their dressage which has improved .

Re the kids non interest in flat work(dressage) Those of you who mention the Pony Club have to take a look at the numbers who are in it and compare them to those who are not, but Jump every weekend. It reaches maybe 30% of young riders in Ireland
Showjumping is the dominate Equestrian Sport here and its jumping clear rounds that is number 1 . If a kid jumps a clear round while riding like a Sack of Spuds they are praised. If you look at the winter leagues they all run classes over 50cm which are packed with kids who cannot ride a straight line, canter on the correct leg, most don't even know what riding on the correct diagional is , but they get a red rosette for Their Pony Jumping a Clear Round.
Take this scenario.
2 winter leagues 20 miles apart.
League A Starters Stakes is a combined training class Cross Poles and Little Dressage Test,(Straight Line, Trot a circle, canter a circle, change rein and repeat, straight line, halt square .Then jump a course of 6 cross poles

League B Starters stakes is a Cross Pole course .
Which one do you think most would turn up at.

Ah_Yeah

Esroh wrote: »

Firstly I'll add my congrates to the Team. Remember this its their results in non-championship events that got us the 5 riders to the Olympics as they missed out on automatic qualification from Euro/World championships. This has come about by working on their dressage which has improved .

Re the kids non interest in flat work(dressage) Those of you who mention the Pony Club have to take a look at the numbers who are in it and compare them to those who are not, but Jump every weekend. It reaches maybe 30% of young riders in Ireland
Showjumping is the dominate Equestrian Sport here and its jumping clear rounds that is number 1 . If a kid jumps a clear round while riding like a Sack of Spuds they are praised. If you look at the winter leagues they all run classes over 50cm which are packed with kids who cannot ride a straight line, canter on the correct leg, most don't even know what riding on the correct diagional is , but they get a red rosette for Their Pony Jumping a Clear Round.
Take this scenario.
2 winter leagues 20 miles apart.
League A Starters Stakes is a combined training class Cross Poles and Little Dressage Test,(Straight Line, Trot a circle, canter a circle, change rein and repeat, straight line, halt square .Then jump a course of 6 cross poles

League B Starters stakes is a Cross Pole course .
Which one do you think most would turn up at.

I agree 100% with you here. It's not just the pony club. And in fact, kids who ride in Pony club most likely do more flatwork than those who are not members of the Pony Club.

Our riders have done a great job so far, looking forward to the next event!

fits

Imhof Tank wrote: »

There is a very structured route to follow up through the pony club - which involves plenty of flatwork. The pony club model has given us most of our top eventers, showjumpers and jockeys so it cant be that inadequate in terms of teaching the basics.

No, to be fair, if it werent for the pony club, I dont know where we'd be at all. The argument I'm making is that there is room for improvement. More emphasis on dressage, more dressage competitions, better prizes. We're not competing in 3 day eventing and we wont until this improves. While todays result was fantastic, and I really dont want to take away from that, we were forty points behind the team in fourth. That was with excellent solid xc and showjumping performances.

TG1

I'll never forget the day a woman I was doing a trial with for a teaching position pulled me aside and told me that the hour long flatwork lesson I'd just given was a lazy choice and she wouldn't be having that carry on at her establishment... she told me in no uncertain terms that every lesson I gave had to have jumping in it...

I think this illustrates how deep seated the general attitude to dressage in Ireland is, and why it might take a while to change, but I think there have been changes made both in pony clubs and other official bodies, and in the BHS teaching tests that may help change this.

Loved every bit of the eventing, and really enjoyed the individual show jumping. It was great that our 3 riders qualified and then managed to move up places. hopefully more people will be made aware of the brilliant sport of eventing after that great performance!

fits

Anyone see David Marcus's horse spooking in the dressage today? Holey moley, I dont know how he sat it. The horse freaked out completely! (and was eliminated)

Joey.

He had a proper hissy fit! Shame he couldn't get the focus back

Esroh

TG1 wrote: »

I'll never forget the day a woman I was doing a trial with for a teaching position pulled me aside and told me that the hour long flatwork lesson I'd just given was a lazy choice and she wouldn't be having that carry on at her establishment... she told me in no uncertain terms that every lesson I gave had to have jumping in it...

I think this illustrates how deep seated the general attitude to dressage in Ireland is, and why it might take a while to change, but I think there have been changes made both in pony clubs and other official bodies, and in the BHS teaching tests that may help change this.

Loved every bit of the eventing, and really enjoyed the individual show jumping. It was great that our 3 riders qualified and then managed to move up places. hopefully more people will be made aware of the brilliant sport of eventing after that great performance!

I have have come up against this attitude towards flatwork many times during my 25 years as an (Instructor)Coach as they like to call it now (I have both qualifications;)) from employers and parents.
For a commercial enterprise the big thing is you have to keep kids interested. Mammy and Daddy must be happy to keep paying 20 euro a week. Jumping is how you keep 80% who are going thru a pony stage in life interested for a few years. The other 20% would do anything and be happy. Keep the 80% happy is commercial sense.

20 years ago you could get Kids to ride without stirrups , no reins( we were even allowed to jump without both) and do all the exercises like 'round the world ' and half scissors while in walk and trot.
They would be all aiming to be the best, everyone fell off and got back up.
Health and saftey says you cannot do it now except at a stand still with a person on each side of the pony. Parents and Kids could see they were getting better each week and it was not how big was the jump that mattered

Also next time anyone is in a School watching a lesson see how often the Leading pony changes in a lesson, as its easier to leave them in the same order following nose to tail . The only kid who actually is having to ride is the front one, rest are just following . Look at how the track is worn where nobody actually rides into the corners. The basics are missing at the very bottom of the ladder long before the small % who do join the PC get there.

granturismo

Esroh wrote: »

20 years ago you could get Kids to ride without stirrups , no reins( we were even allowed to jump without both) and do all the exercises like 'round the world ' and half scissors while in walk and trot.
They would be all aiming to be the best, everyone fell off and got back up.
Health and saftey says you cannot do it now except at a stand still with a person on each side of the pony..

Beg to differ. My daughter has jumped without stirrups and reins in the past 12 months in 2 different schools. The owners of both schools regularly attend safety courses.

There is no such organisation as 'Health and safety'. Perhaps round the world with 2 helpers is a BHS or AIRE recommendation? I have seen beginners doing round the world with helpers and think that is completely appropriate.

Please dont blame elf & safety for poor groundwork. Maybe cross country and jumping have suffered and that is due to national or internation bodies amending their rules. If groundwork has suffered it is purely down to the instructor/owner tightening their school rules in case they get sued.

TG1

granturismo wrote: »

.... Perhaps round the world with 2 helpers is a BHS or AIRE recommendation?...

... If groundwork has suffered it is purely down to the instructor/owner tightening their school rules in case they get sued.

I don't think there is any recommendations for this, I've often done round the worlds etc. and even in a very strict BHS standard yard only used helpers with ponies that are inclined to wander towards the nearest grass!

I also don't think ground work has suffered, I think it's just never been great in Ireland. Again in the yard that followed BHS standards to the letter we were actively encouraged to give flatwork lessons, and people really responded to them, but in the more average small family run riding schools with about 10 ponies that I've worked in it was all about getting bums in saddles and that was done through teaching kids to jump before they could walk a pony in a straight line!

Anyone see David Marcus's horse spooking in the dressage today? Holey moley, I dont know how he sat it. The horse freaked out completely! (and was eliminated)

Was the whole team out of the team event then? I felt so sorry for him, read an interview where he said it was a tv camera that the horse spooked at, I suppose it's comforting in a way to see it even happens to the best in the sport!!

Speak Now

O'Connor was first reserve for today and has got it. Should be jumping just after 12.

convert

Cian O'Connor has now qualified for the final day of show jumping following the withdrawal of a Swedish horse. He's second into the arena, and the first of the 2 final rounds starts at 12 noon.

Speak Now

convert wrote: »

Cian O'Connor has now qualified for the final day of show jumping following the withdrawal of a Swedish horse. He's second into the arena, and the first of the 2 final rounds starts at 12 noon.

Jumped clear!