Lanzarote 2013 - Roth 2012 Race report

tunney

Knox High Bookcase wrote: »

Issue identified and sorted, zeros were being excluded on head unit average so it would always read higher than TP. Does not affect his turbo sets or FTP figures though as he would never be coasting whilst on the turbo so the zeros never impact on the averages.
Just means he can go harder than he has been out on the road:)

So the TP version of the Lanza training camp were right?

tunney

mloc123 wrote: »

But less than a SRM and PC7

Pick one and stick with it, take the Garmin figures as they are... this is what you will use on the day.

At a guess, I would say GC is averaging power based on 'moving time' while TP is averaging power on total time.

How is your PT?

mloc123

tunney wrote: »

How is your PT?

Tango broke that also..

Mr Tango

Power Meter sorted - as JB indicated - just had to change the recording frequency. Tested it out Sunday in what was meant to be a 4 hr cycle with 3x45 min at 190w.

5 mins after I left the house it started snowing. Felt it should blow over. 90 mins later I was 40k out and it was still going. Couldn't feel arms or legs. Nasty!!

Changed the set to 45 easy and then 2hrs at 190 which ended up AP of 198. Decent enough set.

Had to stop the bike (call of nature). Couldn't clip back in - when I checked the cleat a block of ice had formed round it. Had to chip it away to get my foot back in the pedal.

Safe to say coldest I have ever been!!

Most eventful session of the week - rest of the week was just getting through the sessions.

Interesting run session with Yasso 800s (10x800 with c 1.40 rest). Hit ave of c3mins - theory being this translates to a 3hr marathon - I like the theory!!! Anyone any experience of correlating the two?

Capped the week off with the Kildare county 6k road race. Hit 23.39 - ave pace 3.57 so happy enough.

Focus this week is hit the milage and then Naas Duathlon Sunday - lots to fit in.

8.5 weeks to go!!!

pgibbo

Pardon my laziness but what are Yasso 800s?

Fair play for sticking out the cold cycle.....brrr

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Pardon my laziness but what are Yasso 800s?

Fair play for sticking out the cold cycle.....brrr

There is a believe in many circles that running 800m can predict your marathon time

Run 10x800 with equal recovery hitting the same time and then thats your marathon time.

00:03:45 for each 800m, then you can run 03:45:00 for a marathon.

Doesn't take alot of things into account. With the greatest of respect to Tango - cannot see a sub three marathon happening! Degradation in form would be too much

Want to predict your IM run pace - go for a long easy run. That pace is your best IM run pace.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tunney wrote: »

Want to predict your IM run pace - go for a long easy run. That pace is your best IM run pace.

Whilst being able to sing Dora the Explorer.

A good guide to running a sub 3hr standalone marathon is someone who can run a 1:24/5 half and assuming stamina is not an issue and they are fit and healthy on the day. Or a 34km progression long run finishing with 20km at 4.15km pace.

Mr Tango

pgibbo wrote: »

Pardon my laziness but what are Yasso 800s?

Fair play for sticking out the cold cycle.....brrr

See link http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/yasso-800s

tunney wrote: »

Doesn't take alot of things into account. With the greatest of respect to Tango - cannot see a sub three marathon happening! Degradation in form would be too much.

Harsh Dave, Harsh!!!!

Mr Tango

tunney wrote: »

Want to predict your IM run pace - go for a long easy run. That pace is your best IM run pace.

On this basis I am at around 5.19 per km at the minute (based on my last 2 long runs of 2hrs and 2hrs 15). I'd take that in a heart beat!!! Real aim for Lanza would be sub 4hrs which is 5.40 per km ave.

Mr Tango

Plan for the week was go big, biggest run, bigg(ish) bike (at 5 hrs) and use the Bank holiday to put in some good training.

Sunday (24th) saw the coldest duathlon in history - absolutely freezing - they always seem to get the race away though. Finished 18th which was one place down on last month and about 15seconds slower. Dropped a chain on the bike which cost me at least that (on an uphill too) - had to get off the bike and took me two go's to get back on. Very windy and the out and back course was sooo fast on the way back. Probably a better result than last month given the conditions and I think the field was a bit better.

After effect of this were a short recovery swim on Monday morning followed by a really sore throat Monday afternoon. Discussion with my expert advisor (JB) - ditched the training as a precaution until better.

Tuesday - nothing. (Should have been a swim and long intervals running).
Wednesday - nothing (should have been swim, pilates, turbo)
Thursday - nothing but throat no longer sore. (2.5hr run on the plan!)
Friday - 3hrs easy and 25 min run.
Saturday - 5hrs as 30 mins easy and 6x40 mins at 190-200w, 5mins easy. Hit the first 4 okay at around the 190, last two dropped off to 178 and 172 (downhill mostly). Great set - sore shoulders were the biggest problem from 4hrs solid in the tri bars.

Run off the bike as 4.45min per km for 4k and then 2k at 4.30 per km. 2km easy. Impressed at this run - didn't think I would have it in the legs but I did.

Sunday was 2hrs easy - did 80 mins as heading to the zoo with the kids and was lazy getting out the door - not that motivated either. Easy session in prep for 10km on Monday.

Monday (today) - Kildare 10k Senior Road race in Leixlip. Very cold and windy and on a hilly course. Finished in 40.02 - 4 seconds slower than last year but conditions this year were not great (mainly wind). Hard course so have to be happy with the time - would be interested to see a flat 10km and what I would do - maybe a time were Tunney might concede I am an okay runner!!

Plan for this week was recovery but I feel I got that last week - will see how it pans out. First triathlon of the year on Saturday - Tri Laois - looking for a good performance here so will be taking a good recovery day on Friday anyhow.

Chartsengrafs

That's good running off a 5 hour bike. Laois will probably seem very short after that!

Mr Tango

Key focus of the week was the long run and the race on Saturday.

Long run was 6am Wednesday morning - 2hrs 30 as 1 hr easy - around 5.30 per km and then 3x20 mins at 4.45. Hit the third one but first two were ave 4.50. 27km and 2.26 in total. Not bad before work. Then later that night 30 mins easy. Felt good on this after the first km of 6mins per km the legs freed up and dropped to 4.50. Impressed myself. 6km so 33km for the day.

Good turbo on Thursday, Held 2x20min at 220 watts (88% ftp). Surprisingly easy - would have struggled to do one of these not that many months ago!

Easy swim on Friday and then down to Laois for Tri Laois. Brief overview:

Pool swim - quick chat and everyone in the lane is going to go 10mins for 750. SOunds too good to be true. One guy says he can go 17 mins for 1500 but he will go second. I agree to lead but check with him if he really does that time - he confirms it so I tell him to go first (my pb for 1500 is 17.05 but that was 10 years ago!). Needless to say only me and the other guy did 10 mins. We lapped most of the others. I took the lead after about 300 but couldn't shake him. Anyhow - sprint to the timing mat which was a good bit away from the pool to ensure first out of the water (we both got the same time).

T1 was long but I was 10s down and now in second place when I got on the bike. Took me about 5 mins to catch and pass. Really went for it on a downhill to get away but couldn't shake him and he passed me a while later on an uphill. I sat back for 5k or so not wanting to waste energy but the speed started to drop and I was drifting into the draft zone so I absolutely hammered it and thought I had got clear but into T2 and my friend was right there beside me. I did my best to trip him going into T2 when I hit a bump on the bike and it went flying blocking the T2 entrance. Quick apology from me and again he put another 10s into me in transition.

Out on the run and I caught the guy about 1km up the road. We ran side my side (well him in my draft) for the next 2.5km (I had visions of an IronWar II story !!). He tried to go a couple of times but I kept the same pace and he came back to me. Strategy wise I was thinking how to deal with this - I reckoned from the few sprints away from me that he would take me in a sprint finish - I knew there was a downhill about 1km out so I planned to kick there and see what happened. Then out of nowhere - killer stitch in my right side - literally couldn't keep running. Stopped me dead. In fairness to the guy he tried to encourage me on but a short stop to stretch it out and I ran the rest of it off. Needless to say - just wanted to get to the line now and not get caught by anyone else. Almost got back on but ran out of road - gap was 10s.

Overall it was a proper 'race' and just nice to get back on the Irish Tri scene again - second place was a nice bonus!!

Trig1

congrats on what sounds like a great race

pgibbo

Congrats on the podium :cool:

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

If only he could swim well he could have a good race at Lanza:)

Bambaata

Congrats Tango

shotgunmcos

Nice result well done ! Cheers for the report too

El Director

Congrats dude, enjoyed the report :cool:

Mr Tango

Last week - due to be a massive week. Got sick again!! Well I think the cold race on Saturday set my head cold back a bit. Coughing up crap so did nothing until Wednesday. Was tempted to chase the sessions but this is never a great idea!!

So Wednesday was the worst swim ever - 1600m which took just over 30 mins. That night hit a Big Gear turbo - 6x4mins at FTP - not looking forward to it after the morning but it was actually pretty easy - held around 220w.

Thursday - early morning run - up at 5.15 to get into the work car park for a 6am depart. 2.5 hrs round the city centre and Sandymount strand as 1hr easy, 40 minutes at 4.45 (hit 5mins per km) and 30 mins at 4.30 (hit 4.50). 20 mins easy. Finished up at just over 28 k. Didn't hit the targets but was happy enough. Legs were sore after this so I missed the planned 30mins after work recovery run. Turns out I wore my old and 'dead' trainers instead of the new ones which are the same. Amazing the difference!

Friday was swim - 2x400 (hit 6mins) - bit slower than I hoped - wanted to turn on 6. Into 8x200 off 3mins. after first 2 got down to hitting 2.40-2.45 so happy enough - back to normal.

Out that night with my son to see Shamrock Rovers beat Bray 7-0 - go on the hoops!!

Saturday was an hour run - same deal with the trainers (only worked this out on SUnday).

Sunday - 5 hrs in the hills. Tip - don't do Wicklow gap on a tri bike (on the decent) with what I think were gale force winds. Never been blown around like that. I was so chicken - sat up which made me bigger and more unstable whilst the two guys I was with went off into the distance still on the bars. We went over Wicklow Gap, turned at the bottom and back over again and down to Hollywood (check out the Hollywood sign in the hills - genious!). Relatively flat on the N81 to the top of the embankment - TT'd for 35 minutes - was hitting 60kph at times - crazy fast!

Off the bike and 30 mins run ave 4.45 per km. Second half was into that wind - was aiming for 4.30 so I reckon without wind it was easuly that.

In a Jock - didn't enjoy this session at all - hadn't had a session that I hated yet this year so not too bad to only get it now - motivation was nil but I got through it. Ended up in bed for 30 mins deep sleep (before the kids barged in!) - really needed it.

Still messing with the set up - shoulders getting sore when on the TT bars for a few hours so was moving the bars wider and the pads wider. Didn't realise that when the pads went wider they got lower so now too low. Got a spacer off one of the guys so will add this in this week. Not ideal so close to race but I just think raising the front a wee bit and widening the shoulders will provide additional comfort which is important in IM - I can always move it back if I can get it sorted and take the sore shoulder on race day. Also trying to reduce stiffness in the back - its not too bad but I think a slight tweak will make the difference from the comfort perspective.

Recovery week this week then into a hard week next week and starting to ease back slightly into what will be a 2 week taper.

Mr Tango

Last week was recovery at the extreme. I was wrecked and I think had 3 full days off. Did 4 hours training and was just knackered all week.

HR was elevated - even tried taking my resting pulse 3 times one morning (60seconds on the neck when you wake up) but fell back asleep each time dropping the watch on myself as I nodded off!!

This week is a big one and so far so good. 2 key sessions down:

swim
IM test set (from Triathlete Europe).
4x400 rest 30
4x300 rest 20
4x200 rest 10
4x50 rest 5.
Take your total time from start to finish (57.05) and deduct the rest (4.15) which equals your IM predicted swim (52.50).

30 seconds slower than last year when I did this before Roth but over the distance not too worried. SO hopefully on for a 52 again this year!

RUn
2.5hrs pre work and 40 mins after as:
60mins easy
30 mins at 5.15 per km
30 mins at 5 per km
15 mins at 4.45 per km
15 easy.

Hit all these about 5 secs per km off. Was miserable - in the phoenix park at 6am in the p1ssing rain but good to tick it off. DId 2hrs 26mins and 26.6km.

That night out for a recovery 40 mins - very easy. Did 6km in 35mins and was happy enough.

32km in just over 3 hrs so not too bad. Knees were very stiff the next day but recovery swim Friday sorted that out.

So one key session left tomorrow - long bike with run off.

Probably will start to ease back a bit then as the race is 3 weeks today!!!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Best of luck tomorrow Tango. I know how much effort and training has gone in to this and you are in great shape. I hope you reap the rewards tomorrow.
Remember when climbing up Fire Mountain and Mirador, what goes up must come down!!

griffin100

Best of luck with this Tango. Enjoy the day and hopefully the winds will be kind and the sun not too hot!!

El Director

Best of luck Tango. Enjoy

RacoonQueen

Best of luck Tango - enjoy it

pgibbo

Best of luck Tango

Dory Dory

Best to you...Mr. Tango.

Mr Tango

Good day out. 56 swim 6.31 bike 4.08 run to finish in 11.51. Nice day by the pool planned now. Full report in due course!

Mr Tango

Ironman Lanzarote 2013 – Race Report


Known as one of the hardest races on the IM circuit, I have constantly wondered what possessed me to enter this race before I had even done Roth last summer. I wondered this many times during the low points of the Roth run course. Anyhow – don’t want to feel like that again so motivation to train better and smarter for Lanzarote so I get off the tough bike able to run the marathon without too much discomfort. That’s the plan anyhow.


My second bike back after Roth was a 140km in the Dublin mountains in November with Tunney and Fran. I got absolutely pummelled by them both. I bonked after about 90km and 4 of Dave’s out of date gels in one go was needed to get me going. This ride prompted Fran to offer to train me on the bike (this was the lucky bit). Loads of great bike sessions on the turbo and the road seen my FTP go from 207 watts in November to 247 in March and although we didn’t test prior to the IM we reckoned it was c260w prior to race day. Some improvement so big shout out to him!


Got a nice surprise from my wife in February – a weeks training with the two other lad doing the race as an early birthday present. For anyone thinking of doing this race if you can train out there first this is invaluable. The bike course is so tough that training on it lets you know what coming and makes it much easier on race day.


Fast forward to May and there were a few ups and downs on the training. I got sick the week after my last big week (so first week of the taper was gone). Not the worst thing in the world – at least it wasn’t two weeks later.


Taper therefore was not great but all the training had been done and as we headed out to Lanza on the Monday pre race the legs were feeling good. We felt heading out early would allow us to get used to the heat. Unfortunately we brought the Irish weather with us (well not quite that bad) but it was only late teens temperature wise.


Training wise for the year commenced November and can be summarised as not excessive – probably averages at around 12hrs per training week (if you exclude recovery weeks which volume dropped 50% and the weeks I was ill. Peaked at about 15-16 hrs in the really big weeks in March/April.


Race week was pretty calm – we stayed in Club Oceano in Puerto Del Carmen – Great Spot if you are ever doing this race, it is about 5mins walk from the start line. Registration etc was the other end of the Island in Club La Santa so we were only going there once to do this and the expo. It was pretty disappointing – the expo consisted of only a handful of stalls and was poor in comparison to Frankfurt and Roth. We still bought some stuff and attended the race briefing (I learnt from last year that this is important!). We hired a car to get over here which is a must as the buses are infrequent and it was only €40.


Chilled out Friday and prepped for the big race tomorrow.


The Race


Up at 4am for some porridge and a bottle of high 5. Water and one gel would be all I would have pre race. This worked out well and will be noted for next year.


The Swim


Plan was to be up the front. Mass start of 1900 people. The pros got 30m of a start and I was about 30-40m back from the front – the front line must have been down early to secure their spot. The rain started and the gun went. It was carnage – fun, but carnage. Had to do water polo for about 50metres and was swimming all sorts of directions to get clear water. It was then one uneventful swim. Two laps in pretty calm sea (got a bit rougher second lap). First lap 27.45 and completed the 3.8km in 56.16. The swim was a couple of minutes slower than anticipated but I was 48th male out of the water so figured it must have been long and everyone would be a bit slower. Lots of fish around if you like that sort of thing. Doesn’t do it for me – I prefer to see nothing – I was assured Sharks do not venture near Lanzarote!


It was a long transition – ensured I was well sun creamed up and grabbed the bike – hit the bike course after 62mins. Plan was be on the bike at 60mins so a wee bit down on the target.


The Bike


Plan was in or around 190 watts ave power with a cap at around the 250 mark (just below Threshold) on the hills. The course has 2500m of climbing and some massive cross winds which makes the long descents a bit hairy. Temperature was 18 degrees at the start of the bike and increased to 29 degrees by the end. Brief summary of some of the key sections:
•
Transition to El Golfo – first hour was ave speed of 27.6kph and ave watts of 172. I was keeping it controlled and happy enough knowing it was a bit on the easy side. I overcooked Roth last year on the bike so was being cautious. Total climb was 292m with 183 descending so a bit up and down. Pretty uneventful and I just had to let all the fast cyclists pass since I was up near the front after the swim. Scenery is nice round here as you are along the end of the coastline but it was raining which I was not happy at.


•
Hit the bottom of the first climb (Timanfaya) and the rain had stopped which was good. Road was a bit slippy and seen my first accident here – some guy had come off going round the roundabout just before the climb. He was being carried off the road as I passed (thought to self – get round here in 1 piece!).

•
Bottom of El golfo to top of Timanfaya climb – 48mins, 16.5km and 191w. Total draft fest here. I was in the middle of the road just passing people and the wheel was being sucked off me! They announced in the briefing that they wouldn’t impose drafting penalties in the climbs. People were taking advantage of this though. Hit the top of here at the 2hr mark. Total climb in this section 357m.

•
Crested the hill and got battered with cross winds. I played it very safe on the way down and then eased into the tri bars for a nice section through the national park on pretty fast roads. Averaged 30kph for the next hour with watts around the 160 level – bit up and down and first toilet stop also. NP at 172 against an average of 154. This took me to the 3 hour mark – around 80km and to famara. This is where the climbing really starts.

•
Famara to Haria – 22km , 63mins and 600m in climbing. Average power was 203w and I really enjoyed this section. Got a bit of a surprise as Gary from the club said ‘Hi’ in this section. Stuck with him and we had a nice (legal side by side) chat up Haria where I stopped again for the call of nature and didn’t see him again until the run. I left a feed bag here so picked that up – had some sun cream and haribo in there.

•
Decent into the town was 180 degree switch backs with massive drops off either side so being careful was the name of the game. Covered the 5km decent in 8mins (ave speed of 37kph – the brakes were hot by the bottom!).

•
You come into the town and from the training in February I knew I had to be in the small ring straight away as the climb to Mirador del Rio begins straight away. 7kms, 26mins and 196 watts. Climb was 271m. You are now at the top of the island and this is the point where you know the really hard stuff is over.

•
4.45 on the clock and just over 1700m of climbing. Average power was 173w and Normalised 193w. Figured I was pretty much where I wanted to be. Average speed was 24.5 kph and I figured I would be in around 6.5 hrs which was the target as the next 60km would be fast.

•
The decent dropped 442m in 12km. Seen the 2nd accident here – a guy went over the barriers (thankfully towards the bottom where it was just grass and gorse on the other side – he was unconscious and on a stretcher – not great but some of these guys were just flying down here with no room for error). Anyway my brakes were hot again. I averaged 40kph in this section and maxed out at 55kph. Average power was 63w so just coasting and recovering for the flat section coming up.

•
I had planned to really give the flat sections on the end a good go and hit the target watts. 130km down.

•
The next section was 63mins and 33km, climbing was 378m which is surprising as I thought it was pretty flat (suppose it was in comparison to what I had just covered). Average power was 181 with a NP of 192. Learnt how to pee on the go which accounts for the difference as no pedalling for a while!

•
Final decent was now in sight back to Puerto Del Carmen (accident no 3 – guy face down on the tarmac on a straight road with the paramedics beside him. Didn’t look good – must have got hit with a side wind). Anyway – more recovery for me. My ave power for the ride was at 169 (would finish at 165) and I basically free wheeled to transition. Ave power in this last section was 133 with 344m descending.



Overall a pretty uneventful bike which is good. Great course but you need good descending skills. Also had the bike a bit too loaded with space for 3 bottles which was not necessary as I only ever had two. Put Stans ‘no more tubes’ in the wheels for a bit of puncture protection after my issues in Frankfurt so happy I had no issues there also.


Felt good getting off the bike – temperature was now 29 degrees and the marathon to go. Hit 6.31 on the bike which was bang on target. Overall rank at this stage was 477th. Spent 8 minutes in T2 getting changed and more sun cream on and away I went.


Plan was sub 4 hrs on the run. Started out with 2km at ave pace of 5min per km. Settled down and into the wind to the turnaround point in 59min which was half of the half marathon – on target. Got back to the finish line for the second lap in just over 2hrs so on for 4hrs. Still felt pretty okay. It was getting hot and fuel wise was taking a gel every 30mins and lots of ice water over the head. Oranges are surprisingly nice at this stage. Looking forward to Coke towards the end of lap 2.


Lap 2 – shorter lap at just over 10k. Started to get a bit painful at the turnaround for the second 5k. I was averaging 6.01 for the 21-26km mark and 6.10 for the 26-31km. it was getting slower but I had stopped looking at the watch.


It was nice to be brought back down towards the finish of each lap as the support was great and my km splits (when I checked after) improved by about 30s for a couple of km in and out of the turnaround. Support towards the other end was not the best and runners were spread all over the promenade amongst people walking so it got a bit disorganised until you came back towards the finish line again.


Lap 3 – getting very painful. Was glad to get the support coming back to the finish line/turnaround. Band envy was high but now I had two bands and was on the last lap – time to dig in. Gary (fellow Phoenix member) was coming the other way to finish as I was heading back out. He was flying – ended up doing 3.17 marathon and 10.46 overall. I wished him well as he went by and prepared for the pain.


Unfortunately the walking increased and it just kept getting hotter. I could feel the back of my legs burning in the heat and resorted to shouting at myself to start running again as I was walking through the aid stations which was fine at first but not now haven’t I was still walking a minute later. The sub 12 now looked to be at risk. Looked forward to coke at the aid stations – but there was none – lots of people getting coke from their supporters but the aid stations only had red bull which is rank. Annoyed at this but pretty sure I read somewhere there would be coke on the course. The oranges were the business though but from memory at the last two IM’s the Coke did give me a good lift.


I hit the turnaround point averaging 6.35per km for the last 5k (31km -36km) which included some km’s at over 7min. I worked out that I had c40 mins to run 6k to the finish. Knew I had to pick it up so I stopped walking and dug in. Covered the last stretch at ave of 5.43 so well inside for a 4.08. Ave pace for run was 5.53 so happy enough. This was 14 minutes quicker than last year in Roth so at least some progress which I would put down to the bike.


Overall time of 11.51. Finished 482nd male – so dropped 4 places on the run. Reality was dropped loads and made up loads!



Wrecked some guys finisher photo but they were starting to queue up to get pictures as they crossed the line – anyway he has a nice photo of me beside him lifting the finishing tape whilst one or two others were hanging back 10metres waiting for the way to clear.


Roth last year was 11.09 and Frankfurt the year before in 11.36. I would put Lanzarote down as the best performance by far – this is a must do race..


Overall a pretty uneventful Ironman which is great compared to my last two! Key points to focus on for next year are:
1.
Get a flattish course - thinking Sweden, Barcelona, Frankfurt. Target close to 10hrs!!

2.
Keep up the bike work – should see IM wattage move towards 210-220 which should see a good bike split on a fast course.

3.
Time to focus properly on the run. You can’t expect a good marathon time running on less than 50km per week (and probably less than 30km when you average it out).



Run focus starts in one week with the main races for the rest of the year the National Half Marathon in August and the Dublin Marathon in October. I’ll try and get one or two Olympic distance Tri’s in just for fun!


Big thanks to the other half and the other supporters that came out with us. They tell us it is just as stressful supporting! Their support was just what was needed on the run. I have 3 kids so it is a team effort and I am always grateful to get out the door for a 5 hour cycle at the weekend – sacrifices all round. Needless to say I am already being told by Elaine that I can go faster and train better so I’ll definitely be going long again next year.

mloc123

Scrap Barcelona as a flat race, bike has changed now and is now very hilly.

Good report. Saturday, 7.30 at yours?

Abhainn

Fair play Mr Tango great reading & valaubale info and also a fine performance.
I watched it live and heat really seemd to increase on the run.

Regarding Kalmer Sweden, it will sell out very quickly so keep a close eye on it
I'm doing the new challenge in Almere (Holland) in Sept. Bike is flat but windy, that may be a possibility too.
Copenhagen is fast and very good by the reports