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I'm definitely getting better... New song and new mix
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29-07-2012 9:27pm#1
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Thanks Fitz. The intonation on the high e on my guitar is slightly out which is why it's a bit out of tune. I didn't really notice it so much but now you mention it it's starting to bug me. Thanks for that...
It's a Gretsch with a floating bridge and the previous owner screwed it into place but did it is such a way as the top string can't be intoned properly. Today's job is to fix that... and redo the guitar part.
I like where the vocals sit, they're pretty far up at the beginning and then lowered a db or so at the end, but the higher vocal is compressed a good bit. Could be the guitar is a touch too loud. That being said, I like my drums and bass high up in the mix so it could be an overall balance thang.
Re vocal stacking time. Unfortunately I'm running out of processing power on my computer. I'd love to fatten up the end though. Any suggestions how to do it? I'm thinking maybe an artificial stereo job with a send to a super short delay. But I'd love to hear any better suggestions you may have.0 -
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Cheers.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I'm looking for technical assistance rather than creative assistance. I'm happy with the arrangement and performance (except for that damn out of tune guitar... once again, thanks Fitz!
) and were I to take on board other people's creative suggestions... well, it'd be a song made by committee. I do appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment though and am glad you find the song interesting. 0 -
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Cheers.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I'm looking for technical assistance rather than creative assistance.
I'm happy with the arrangement and performance (except for that damn out of tune guitar... once again, thanks Fitz!) and were I to take on board other people's creative suggestions... well, it'd be a song made by committee.
No, you're neurotic and over defensive. The problem with doing it by yourself, is you become overly emotionally attached to it. Like a woman who has given birth to a very ugly baby.
The technical problems are more things you've done in the arrangement and performance. When it comes in after the break on 2.36 minutes - it should be bursting with power. The falsetto is good - but the whole thing is lacking a bursting power (I'm listening to it again - when the snare kicks in it should come out bursting with power - and it isn't). You're break down is 1.30 minutes long - which is fine for a dance track, and it has lots of great stuff going on but in comparison to the rest of the track in terms of arrangement.
You need to step back. It's a good tune...with lots of great stuff...but you're not doing it justice.
It doesn't sound great, because you are not doing it justice. Not because you need to filter or boost a few frequencies.
And don't give this crap about 'a horse designed by committee'. Did Beatles albums sound like horses designed by committee?..........How about Beatles solo albums?
BY THE WAY - THE OUT OF TUNE GUITAR SOUNDS GREAT, IT GIVES THE TRACK A REAL EARHOOK.
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Ok, I'll bite
The Beatles at their creative peak were like two masterful horse designers competing with one another, and each trying to better the last's design. Plus another horse designer living in their shadow but eventually becoming their equal. And a drummer. It also helped that they teamed up with, IMO, the greatest producer the world has known. Their solo albums? Well there's a lot of good stuff there, but they suffer from a lack of that competitiveness. Plus, as a band, they were a unit operating within their own little world, so the 'committee' element didn't come into it, as that would have required them taking on board ideas from outside the unit. Which they didn't.
I hope you've heard The Beach Boys' Smile Sessions. It's magical, and very much an example of one person seeing through his vision uncompromisingly, as most unique and memorable works have been. It's a real shame it didn't get released back then as it was equal to any of the Beatles' records, which obviously were Brian Wilson's own personal competiton. There's many other examples; pretty much any Stevie Wonder record, Jimi Hendrix, Grandaddy, St Vincent, Radiohead, Nirvana, Panda bear...
Art is a personal choice of aesthetics. These days there's less of a chance than ever before to make a living out of music. So, in the end, all there is left is the art. And I think it's paramount that all artists be uncompromising, follow through on their ideas, and not be concerned with others' opinions of their aesthetic choices.
All that verbiosity aside, my response to kunst nugget does read like it's being dismissive. I really didn't intend it that way. If I was more eloquent I could have gotten across what I meant more effeciently. That is to say, I like the synth sound and the way it's big and ignorant and out of nowhere. I also really like the vocal at the end - I was going for a Supertramp mixed with Neil Young type deal and I feel like it's pretty good. So while I acknowledge your concerns, I'm happy with my particular aesthetic choices in those cases. Sorry if I sounded like a douche.
WRT the other stuff, yes I'm neurotic, almost singularly when it comes to music. Probably overly defensive. Definitely overly emotionally detached, which is why I've moved on to something else and will come back to this with some fresh ears in a week or so.
Both yourself and kunst nugget were right in that when the song comes back in it should burst with power. And it doesn't to the degree it should. Fitz gave me good advice on how to get a wall of vocals going, so I'm gonna give that a go. Though, maybe a gated reverb on the snare could help out. There's probably a lot of things that could add to that and I'm all ears for suggestions.
I am not very good at mixing, which is why I posted in the forum. I wanted to get feedback on my mixes and to learn how to build a better mix, create a better balance, and serve the songs as best I can. I've received some good solid advice that has helped a lot and I'm really appreciative of that.
TLDR;
The answer is yes.0 -
I hope you've heard The Beach Boys' Smile Sessions. It's magical, and very much an example of one person seeing through his vision uncompromisingly, as most unique and memorable works have been. It's a real shame it didn't get released back then as it was equal to any of the Beatles' records, which obviously were Brian Wilson's own personal competiton. There's many other examples; pretty much any Stevie Wonder record, Jimi Hendrix, Grandaddy, St Vincent, Radiohead, Nirvana, Panda bear...
In truth nearly all of these groups had producers or there was at least more than one person.
Dance music aside, there have been only very few completely self produced records of note. Things like Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska. It's very difficult to do something, and not have someone to turn to, to simply ask "Does that sound all right to you?".
There is a real problem with self production. There are lots of problems with it - not saying it's a giving that if you have someone else it's better. The more I've got into this, the more I've learned you're ears can play incredible tricks on you - and not just for five minutes, but every time you hear the track and you won't hear it normally unless you get a few months distance.Art is a personal choice of aesthetics. These days there's less of a chance than ever before to make a living out of music. So, in the end, all there is left is the art. And I think it's paramount that all artists be uncompromising, follow through on their ideas, and not be concerned with others' opinions of their aesthetic choices.
Yeah, but we're not really talking about art or aesthetic choices here. A large part of music production doesn't have much to do with artistic choices - it's tidying up things. Making them sound clearer etc. A lot of that can be done without changing the aesthetic content or direction. It's add a little here, smudge a little there. Or what needs to be cleaned up, and stripped back.
Like I think you have some interesting drums in there, and there's some good intentional surprises etc.All that verbiosity aside, my response to kunst nugget does read like it's being dismissive. I really didn't intend it that way. If I was more eloquent I could have gotten across what I meant more effeciently. That is to say, I like the synth sound and the way it's big and ignorant and out of nowhere.
I think it's a good idea....but I think you need a lecture on conceptual art - I'm not about to give it....this minute. Never confuse the idea with the execution. They're too different things. You can retain the idea and execute it differently, while you retain the underlying aesthetic. Back in the day when record companies would pay a producer to produce an inexperienced young band. The producer would work to hang onto the aesthetics - and would just aim to have them well executed.
I think you have some really good ideas. Some are poorly executed. I thought the slightly out of tune guitar had real character. But that was you being a Dufus.I also really like the vocal at the end - I was going for a Supertramp mixed with Neil Young type deal and I feel like it's pretty good. So while I acknowledge your concerns, I'm happy with my particular aesthetic choices in those cases. Sorry if I sounded like a douche.
No, you sounded defensive - you were hurt. Like I just called your baby ugly. Don't lie to me, you felt a pang of pain, followed by a rush of anger.
It's actually really hard to get a good opinion on music you're making. A question you should be asking people is "what sounds crap about this?". It's actually very very hard to get a knowledgeable answer - because most people don't know shst.
There's a story about Bjorn Borg, the 80s tennis player. That when he was younger, he could easily get distracted and had a terrible temper. So, his coach paid guys to sit around the court while he was training, shouting things like "yar mudder's a ****** c****" etc. .......This actually worked. He became so focussed they started calling him the machine. You don't have to become a machine, but the emotional distraction is a hump you and everyone else has to get over. .........It really does hold people back.
You can always say no to an aesthetic suggestion, but you do yourself no favours by not having a dialogue on it. You can move an idea around a lot and it still stays the same idea. When it goes too far, you just say no.WRT the other stuff, yes I'm neurotic, almost singularly when it comes to music. Probably overly defensive. Definitely overly emotionally detached, which is why I've moved on to something else and will come back to this with some fresh ears in a week or so.
Yes. But the trickery your ears can play on you is incredible. I was listening to some stuff, I'd done over a year ago last night, and it sounded radically different from how I remembered it. The production wasn't up to what I'd like it to be, I'm missing quite a bit, but some of the things I'd done in them, I couldn't believe I had or remembering having done them, or that they sounded the way they did. Getting obsessed with the sound of a snare - and then missing "big as your nose stuff"...or just losing your mind in general.
Getting a good opinion on music is difficult. I've done music, and I am the only person who is going to like it. As simple as that. Things that sound like mistakes have been deliberate. Making music for other people is something else - it's something I'd like to do, but it is really something else.Both yourself and kunst nugget were right in that when the song comes back in it should burst with power. And it doesn't to the degree it should. Fitz gave me good advice on how to get a wall of vocals going, so I'm gonna give that a go. Though, maybe a gated reverb on the snare could help out. There's probably a lot of things that could add to that and I'm all ears for suggestions.
I'm hearing the same thing as Fitz. Indistinct tingles and fragments would energise the thing.
Here's a good example of a wall of sound backing vocal - it's indistinct and smudged .......Not suggesting this is how you should sound, but all the ideas are in there. Some of it is just burying and disintegrating piano tinkles under reverb. The lead vocal is actually really thin - but the wall of sound makes it full and fat. And a lot of really great stuff is hidden down in the smudge - it sounds big on first listen - but improves on further listens because there's so much texture going on.
The vocal wall of sound is used on so many recordings you mostly never notice it. It's not meant to be noticed. It's used on nearly everything you hear.I am not very good at mixing, which is why I posted in the forum. I wanted to get feedback on my mixes and to learn how to build a better mix, create a better balance, and serve the songs as best I can. I've received some good solid advice that has helped a lot and I'm really appreciative of that.
You're doing fine. But I think a trap is, listening to something, and there's something wrong you can't put your finger on, and you automatically assume it's the mix. But the thing is, you can't mix in stuff that isn't already there, that may need to be there.0 -
In truth nearly all of these groups had producers or there was at least more than one person.
Not nearly all. Nirvana definitely had producers, I'm not sure about St. Vincent, but her live show is pretty much the same as the record. Panda Bear is entirely self produced. Likewise Grandaddy. Radiohead's last few have been self produced. A lot of Stevie Wonder's records were self produced. And Hendrix was notoriously bull headed about how his stuff sounded.Dance music aside, there have been only very few completely self produced records of note. Things like Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska. It's very difficult to do something, and not have someone to turn to, to simply ask "Does that sound all right to you?".
That ain't true, a **** ton of records of note were self produced. Queen's A Night at The Opera for one. And ones from the artists I listed above. I know you're saying that bands have themselves to bounce ideas off but that's not really the issue. They still work as a self contained unit. Which is the point. That said, you're right that having the opinion of others is important. But it's also important who those people are whose opinion you value.There is a real problem with self production. There are lots of problems with it - not saying it's a giving that if you have someone else it's better. The more I've got into this, the more I've learned you're ears can play incredible tricks on you - and not just for five minutes, but every time you hear the track and you won't hear it normally unless you get a few months distance.
Absolutely right.Yeah, but we're not really talking about art or aesthetic choices here. A large part of music production doesn't have much to do with artistic choices - it's tidying up things. Making them sound clearer etc. A lot of that can be done without changing the aesthetic content or direction. It's add a little here, smudge a little there. Or what needs to be cleaned up, and stripped back.
Well, engineering has to do with those things. Production is all about aesthetics, and it's up to the engineer to make the ideas work. Obviously some things won't work and will have to be revised. It's a pretty close relationship and the line has been blurred a lot over the recent past. Some engineers are happy to help with arrangement etc, and some just work with what they have to produce the best mix possible.Like I think you have some interesting drums in there, and there's some good intentional surprises etc.
Cheers, but they're all programmed on superior drummer! I ain't got mad drum skillz.I think it's a good idea....but I think you need a lecture on conceptual art - I'm not about to give it....this minute. Never confuse the idea with the execution. They're too different things. You can retain the idea and execute it differently, while you retain the underlying aesthetic. Back in the day when record companies would pay a producer to produce an inexperienced young band. The producer would work to hang onto the aesthetics - and would just aim to have them well executed.
I'd love a lecture on conceptual art!No, you sounded defensive - you were hurt. Like I just called your baby ugly. Don't lie to me, you felt a pang of pain, followed by a rush of anger.
It's very hard to judge intention in writing unless you have context. I didn't feel any of those things. I've been at this a long time. I've released stuff and had good, bad and indifferent reviews. I've been heckled at gigs. I've done creative writing classes where the focus was on intense criticism. I did used to feel hurt in the past but over time I have grown a thicker skin.
I don't really care for mitigating things, I'd rather be up front and honest. If that came off as blunt, well that was my intent. If you read it as me being defensive, that could be you projecting! (see, we can all do a bit of armchair psychology) I have absolutely nothing to gain by lying to you.
I really don't think the internet is a good place to try and get help with creative choices, as the cliche goes; opinions are like arseholes... and the internet is full of opinions. I have a number of people I would go to, whose opinions I trust from experience. As I mentioned above, it's important to be selective about whose opinions you listen to.
What I do think the internet is good for is technical assistance, learning, and information. And of course conversations like this one are always good fun.It's actually really hard to get a good opinion on music you're making. A question you should be asking people is "what sounds crap about this?". It's actually very very hard to get a knowledgeable answer - because most people don't know shst.
It depends, but mostly that's true.There's a story about Bjorn Borg, the 80s tennis player. That when he was younger, he could easily get distracted and had a terrible temper. So, his coach paid guys to sit around the court while he was training, shouting things like "yar mudder's a ****** c****" etc. .......This actually worked. He became so focussed they started calling him the machine. You don't have to become a machine, but the emotional distraction is a hump you and everyone else has to get over. .........It really does hold people back.
That sounds familiar alright.You can always say no to an aesthetic suggestion, but you do yourself no favours by not having a dialogue on it. You can move an idea around a lot and it still stays the same idea. When it goes too far, you just say no.
Again, this is true.
I'll respond to the rest tomorrow. All good stuff!0 -
Yes. But the trickery your ears can play on you is incredible. I was listening to some stuff, I'd done over a year ago last night, and it sounded radically different from how I remembered it. The production wasn't up to what I'd like it to be, I'm missing quite a bit, but some of the things I'd done in them, I couldn't believe I had or remembering having done them, or that they sounded the way they did. Getting obsessed with the sound of a snare - and then missing "big as your nose stuff"...or just losing your mind in general.
Getting a good opinion on music is difficult. I've done music, and I am the only person who is going to like it. As simple as that. Things that sound like mistakes have been deliberate. Making music for other people is something else - it's something I'd like to do, but it is really something else.
I've had the same experience regarding getting obsessed with stuff.
With regards to making music for you versus for other people, I think it's all the same. Unless you're purposefully contriving music to try and sell to a certain market or mooch off the success of a certain band/sound, most memorable artists make music to suit themselves. It's an entirely selfish thing. If other people like the music then that's even better. Obviously that's not the extent of the story, but like I said, now more than ever before that's the most important aspect. I'm not sure there's any contemporary acts I listen to that have made their music with compromises for an easier sell. They're never gonna get played on FM radio but their gigs get fuller each time they play. This is because the people who really care about music, and not the ones who listen to flavour of the month type stuff, know a good thing when they hear it. In Dublin alone there's literally a couple of gigs a week worth going to. I don't mean <local band>, but international acts. We got to support some amazing acts over the last few years; The Walkmen, M Ward, Richard Swift, Micah P Hinson, John Vanderslice, Rodriguez, Joan As Police Woman, Emmy The Great, Bowerbirds... and loads more I can't remember. Besides maybe The Walkmen and JAPW, none of them are household names really, but the gigs were packed. I have a group of friends who go out to gigs multiple times every week. I can't afford to do that as much as I'd like, but then that's the difference between music lovers and musicians. Music lovers listen to music to escape the mundanity of life, whereas music makers can do that by creating their own.
Long winded as that may be, my point is that there is a ton of really good, and some truly great, music these days. And because to a great extent record companies are out the window, there's far less competition than there used to be. But then there's also far less potential money to be made. If you are good enough and work hard enough you can just about make a living out of music. But in order to do so you certainly don't need to pander to people. The type of people that are going to pay to see you play aren't fools. So make the music you love, that gives you the same feeling you get from listening to the music you love to listen to. If the passion is there, the music is good enough, original enough, and you work hard enough at getting it out there, people will pay attention. Yeah, luck plays a part, but cliché or not, you make your own luck. Or at least create a situation where you can take advantage of the opportunities that come your way.
Also, pretty much no act these days make massive waves with their first couple of records. It's all about perseverance. It's becoming more and more of an older person's game. You gotta find a way to fund your art without relying on your art to make you an income, at the beginning at least. In any other discipline, artists get better and better with age, the idea of talent incrementally bettered and strengthened over a lifetime. Obviously there are the sort of prodigy type artists, but for every Welles there's a Hitchcock, for every TS Eliot there's a Robert Frost, for every Picasso there's a Cezanne. Up until recently, music has been a young person's game. Maybe there's a reason why musicians mostly didn't get better with age and turned into parodies of themselves or their own tribute acts. Maybe it's to do with the fact that they got rich and all the conflict left their lives. And since music has fallen from the upper tiers of the income bracket the people who pursue it have to struggle for years before they even see any type of payback. So as a result we all benefit from a better, stronger culture of music that is borne out of a lifetime dedicated to the art.
Dunno what that has to do with this thread, but how and ever...
I'm hearing the same thing as Fitz. Indistinct tingles and fragments would energise the thing.
Here's a good example of a wall of sound backing vocal - it's indistinct and smudged .......Not suggesting this is how you should sound, but all the ideas are in there. Some of it is just burying and disintegrating piano tinkles under reverb. The lead vocal is actually really thin - but the wall of sound makes it full and fat. And a lot of really great stuff is hidden down in the smudge - it sounds big on first listen - but improves on further listens because there's so much texture going on.
The vocal wall of sound is used on so many recordings you mostly never notice it. It's not meant to be noticed. It's used on nearly everything you hear.
I'm gonna have a look at the ending for sure. The thing is, I'm not an engineer so I'm not au fait with a lot of techniques. Which is why it's a great help to get suggestions on how to improve the technical aspects of songs.
The thing is, I'm doing these recording for a few different reasons. The most important is to work out the arrangements. I'm in the position at the moment where I don't have a band to work with. So I have to play all the stuff myself. In fact, I've always worked this way when it's come to the initial writing stages. Once I have this batch of songs done to a reasonable standard I'm gonna get some people together, rehearse the shit out of them and record the stuff in a proper studio.
The second reason I'm doing these recordings is to learn how to mix better. I'm getting more and more confident in my ability. It's far off, but I'm hoping by the time I have the ten songs done at home I'll be at a standard where I can track the stuff in a studio and mix it at home. But it will depend on how good I am at that stage. It might be I'll have someone else mix.
Thirdly, I want to iron out the kinks in the production side of things. So that means getting the arrangements right. I'd also be up for knocking ideas around with a producer if needs be.
You're right in saying that stuff can't be fixed in the mix if it ain't right going in. That's why tracking stuff like drums, bass, guitars, vocals etc in a good studio with good mics and mic placement, good outboard, and so on will make a world of difference. Also having all the parts played well. I'm a serviceable guitar player, an alright singer and an alright keyboard/synth player. I can programme drums alright but there's no substitute for a good drummer (which is hard to find btw). Bass I can play as if I was playing guitar, ie. not at all like a good bass player. I can sketch out ideas and that's about it.
I wouldn't dream of releasing any of the stuff I'm doing at the moment in these particular incarnations.You're doing fine. But I think a trap is, listening to something, and there's something wrong you can't put your finger on, and you automatically assume it's the mix. But the thing is, you can't mix in stuff that isn't already there, that may need to be there.
Absolutely.0 -
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