Irish basketball team

Tiernster7

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

GoldFour4

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

Holy f*ck, you're harsh! An amazing achievement if you ask me.

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Holy f*ck, you're harsh! An amazing achievement if you ask me.

He only played 3 years in the nba, its not fantastic. Its a nice thing to be able to say he was the first Irish player to play in the NBA but as a national side we're never going to make progress if 3 seasons is seen as "amazing".

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

He only played 3 years in the nba, its not fantastic. Its a nice thing to be able to say he was the first Irish player to play in the NBA but as a national side we're never going to make progress if 3 seasons is seen as "amazing".

I would've thought going from having NO players in the NBA to having A player in the NBA was seen as just that - progress!

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I would've thought going from having NO players in the NBA to having A player in the NBA was seen as just that - progress!

He last played in the Nba in 05 though ! It's nearly 8 years later and I think we only have one player in the NCAA

WHIP IT!

malachyscott wrote: »

He last played in the Nba in 05 though ! It's nearly 8 years later and I think we only have one player in the NCAA

Really, who was it?

How does an Irish player go about 'winding up' in the NCAA?

GoldFour4

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Really, who was it?

How does an Irish player go about 'winding up' in the NCAA?

Can't remember off the top of my head but I think he's in Georgia state or tech, something in that region I think.

They'd have scouts for the national finals I'd presume, wouldn't know for certain though. Some underage teams go on tours to the states to play local teams and there would have been underage national teams. Not sure whether they still exist with the cutbacks though !

padraig_f

malachyscott wrote: »

Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns.

I'm reading the book Seven Seconds or Less about the Sun's '05/'06 season and Burke features a bit in it. The Suns coaches liked him, thought he could be a serviceable backup. Got unlucky in his first year there, was getting a deep-tissue massage and they hit a nerve which put him out for a good part of the season. Seemed like he never really cracked the rotation after that.

In the book he doesn't feature much on the court, but had a few off-court contributions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFCCiohVoM

padraig_f

On a similar note, good article today about Luol Deng, and the challenges of making it to the NBA from over here:
From London to London, a basketball world apart

GoldFour4

padraig_f wrote: »

I'm reading the book Seven Seconds or Less about the Sun's '05/'06 season and Burke features a bit in it. The Suns coaches liked him, thought he could be a serviceable backup. Got unlucky in his first year there, was getting a deep-tissue massage and they hit a nerve which put him out for a good part of the season. Seemed like he never really cracked the rotation after that.

In the book he doesn't feature much on the court, but had a few off-court contributions:

]

Very much a fan favourite with the Suns from what I can remember.

stuba

It's crazy to even imagine the quality of players that used to be in the Superleague both as imports and Irish. Could you imagine being up against Mario Elie and then 10 years later he goes on to win a ring!!

RoundBox11

Tiernster7 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

It's an absolute bloody disgrace. As far as i can remember the IBA was 1 million in debt at the time, which isn't a whole lot compare to some of the other irish sports organisations.

I don't understand how they were so in debt anyway. The subscription fees across the board to Dublin clubs is astronomical with a chunk of it going to the IBA. If they had any sense they'd rent out the national basketball arena for events and concerts to raise more money.

What annoys me most is the fact that the irish basketball team could be could be competitive in europe if it was properly funded and organised. The player base in the country is huge (particular in women's basketball).
Most schools nowadays have teams and all the big colleges have numerous teams for experienced and new players. The only difference between it and the soccer set up is that soccer clubs, stadiums etc receive better funding.

If you go into schools in Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Limerick etc. most will have good quality courts and gear. So why are we struggling? It's because the schools, by and large, do not view basketball as a serious sport.


I remember about 8 years ago when Ireland would beat the British team. Now look at the difference.
The talent is there. I know loads of lads who played underage for Ireland and got scholarships in lower division colleges in america. If they along with the incredibly talented Irish players in Irish colleges (UCC, UCD, UL to name a few) were monitered and developed correctly they could be used to build the foundations for a new Mens team which could be used as a launch pad for a competitive team.

Re-starting a mens team would cost the IBA all but nothing. Especially if they aren't going on far flung trips. (The underage teams are sent off on over-elabourate trips so why not the mens team).


Theres no excuse for the current situation imo.

buyer95

Tiernster7 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Something I'm curious about. The Irish national team was disbanded in 09 due to financial difficulties has there been any talk since of bringing it back. The National basketball Arena is a fine stadium and there are several bball hotbeds in Ireland plus we weren't that uncompetitive. Is it literally just financial reasons

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

RoundBox11

buyer95 wrote: »

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

I forgot about the underage players having to pay for everything. I remember when i was around 18 we had the whole irish trials ordeal but some of the lads who got selected couldn't keep it up because of the costs.

If we were to have an international team again, which was managed by a competent IBA, we could even draw in a few irish qualified americans to boost the team.

buyer95

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

I forgot about the underage players having to pay for everything. I remember when i was around 18 we had the whole irish trials ordeal but some of the lads who got selected couldn't keep it up because of the costs.

If we were to have an international team again, which was managed by a competent IBA, we could even draw in a few irish qualified americans to boost the team.

Jamal Crawford expressed an interest in representing Ireland in the past, and there are other players also who qualify to play for Ireland, and might if we got our act together

buyer95

It's a pity the Irish media don't draw more attention to the awful position were in with regards to the Irish mens team. A bit of bad press would do BI no harm.

When you think about it, the GAA, an amateur organisation, have a International team. We have an arena with no debt hardly ever getting used for big games only once a year really for the club finals. When I think about it too much I just get angry

moneyman

buyer95 wrote: »

I have vented my anger against the whole Basketball Ireland establishment in another thread. But yes it is all due to miss managed finances, which is a by product of our Basketball Ireland's leaders ineptness

Edit: Basketball Ireland, was and continues to be a woefully inept governing body. From the grassroots level right up to the senior team.

The Irish senior team was going fairly well there for a while in the mid noughties,they were competing at a high level. I remember them being in contention to qualify for a european championships around 2005(actually did we qualify for that?), we even had NBA players in Pat Burke, Marty Conlon, and Cal Bowdler.Those games were shown on RTE too which was great.

However, a few years back Basketball Ireland got themselves into financial difficulty, the details of which I have since forgotten, which meant the mens and womens senior teams were disbanded... It was and is a disgraceful positition to be in.

Worse than this however , in my opinion, is the farcical way in which the underage international teams are run. In short, because Basketball Ireland is broke, if a player is picked to be on any of the u16,17 or 18 teams, the players families themselves have to come up with huge amounts of money up front, I think its in the region of 3 to 5 thousan euros to cover expenses, such as gear, travel to tournament etc. I am a member of a prominent basketball club in Muster which will remain nameless, and last year there were 2 players on my clubs u18 team who were and are exceptional talents. News filtered through from basketball ireland to the club that trials were being held, but neither of these players tried out, because the amount of money was just too much of an ask... What this has done, esentially, is that the team is made of players exclusively from wealthy backgrounds, while many excellent talents are not getting their chance to represent their country...

Basketball Ireland is just an awful association...

Without going into much detail this is what prevented me from ever going to trials. I'm very confident I would have made it as well. I get pissed off whenever I think of all the kids that don't get the opportunity for a variety of reasons. Growing up I played against lads who were on underage NTs who I was miles ahead of. I wasn't the only one either. I'm sure there are many other lads out there in the same boat, it's a real shame.

peteb2

buyer95 wrote: »

It's a pity the Irish media don't draw more attention to the awful position were in with regards to the Irish mens team. A bit of bad press would do BI no harm.

How do you figure that? On the basis of any publicity is good publicity? They struggle to get sponsorship at the best of times and you thing some negative press is going to help bring funding in?

buyer95

peteb2 wrote: »

How do you figure that? On the basis of any publicity is good publicity? They struggle to get sponsorship at the best of times and you thing some negative press is going to help bring funding in?

The reason they struggle for funding is the fault of BI. In the 90's basketball was the fastest growing sport in Ireland, UCC Demons v Neptune, and Tralee Tigers and St Paul Killlarney were massive rivalries and crowds flocked to those games in their droves. If BI had kicked on from that position, ie secure TV rights ect we wouldnt be in the position we are in were the association is broke. It isn't due to lack of sponsorship that BI can't field an international senior team, or afford to cover the costs of running a proper underage system, it is due to mismanaged finances. Sponsorship would be a help, but is not the reason BI is in the embarrassing position it is in.

And if the media brought this to the attention of the public, senior figures within the association would quickly find their positions untenable, and would be replaced by new faces, people with new ideas who might drive this great sport forward. something which the current establishment is incapable of doing

peteb2

I didn't say it was. What i said was that negative publicity is not the way to go to resurrecting a mens international team!

What do you know of senior figures in BI? What makes you think they haven't changed? The CEO has changed for one.

Carcharodon

malachyscott wrote: »

yup, its expensive to send teams to different countries especially when we don't really have a shot of making any major tournament. A small sport like basketball is always going to lose out when funding runs out. The sport needs to get Irish players into the NCAA and then the NBA. Pat Bourke was our only NBA player and he was really a 9th man for the Suns. Nothing to write home about really.

Ah good old Pat, remember I went to watch him play when the Suns came to play the Warriors, he got a good few minutes as well I think, might of been a blow out.

limerickfc

Im from limerick myself and honestly basketball around here is growing at a very fast level in the younger age groups, what they need now is more televised games from the superleague so theyl see that its not just soccer and rugby that you can get famous off. For the sport to really develop it has to start with the superleague teams advertising their games like mad and at very cheap prices to get people interested. We have fantastic facilities down here in UL but we just need more numbers in terms of fans per games. Whats the structure around europe in terms of basketball, I often watch euroleague and eurocup games on Eurosport.? Can Irish teams get into any of them tournaments?

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

Im from limerick myself and honestly basketball around here is growing at a very fast level in the younger age groups, what they need now is more televised games from the superleague so theyl see that its not just soccer and rugby that you can get famous off. For the sport to really develop it has to start with the superleague teams advertising their games like mad and at very cheap prices to get people interested. We have fantastic facilities down here in UL but we just need more numbers in terms of fans per games. Whats the structure around europe in terms of basketball, I often watch euroleague and eurocup games on Eurosport.? Can Irish teams get into any of them tournaments?

Quite simply - no. The gap in terms of talent between the Irish League and the Euroleague is huge. To use a divisonal analagy, if NBA is Division 1 and Euroleague is Division 2, the Irish League is honestly about Division 8 - the gap is that big. We're further behind in our basketball development compared to Europe than our soccer teams are if tou can believe that. The Euroleague is kinda like the Champions League but the clubs are invited by the Euroleague through a very complicated National Ranking system....you don't qualify per se, but your country does and nominates teams etc. and these teams get licences to compete in the Euroleague for a number of years. There are qualification rounds within the tournament but this is not like Champions League soccer where every country's teams get in. It's basically a closed shop. More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague_Basketball

Some of the players in the Euroleague are on more money than players in the NBA! The CSKA Moscow team in particular have had some astonishingly good players on megabucks over the years.

Most recently Andrei Kirilenko went from the NBA to CSKA and back to the NBA this year. Theo Papaloukas signed a 10.5million 3 year deal with CSKA after the Beijing Olympics despite having pretty much NBA team in the league chasing him. Ex-Lakers Sasha Vujacic and Jordan Farmar are now in Europe.

I think people watch Euroleague and think it's slow and therefore not good. The reality is much, much different. It's a different toe of game than the NBA and not as athletic, but is a more fundamentally sound game with emphasis on defence, passing, teamwork and pure shooting. Having played at a relatively high level myself trust me when you see a 6'10" Russian forward pulling up on a fast-break and shooting a three like it's a layup you realise we play a different game in Ireland than these boys do.

Brandon Jennings spent his year out in Italy instead of going to college. He averaged 7.6 points in the Italian league. He scored 55 in one game as a rookie less than a year later in the NBA! Jennings is almost at All Star Level in the NBA.

There are some other examples of guys who've taken a year or two in Europe instead of the NBA for various reasons, too small for their position, too light, need to Workin certain aspects of their game etc. the Euroleague is the best league by far outside of the NBA and you can see this in how close Euroleague teams come to beating the NBA teams when they play.

If you ever get a chance to go to a Euroleague game, do. The atmosphere is unreal - esp. In Turkey, Greece or Croatia. And if you can make it to the Euroleague Top Four, it's simply amazing.

buyer95

Yeah NBA fans like to sh(i)t on the Euroleague, but in many ways it is a more skillful game than the NBA. There is much less of an emphasis on isolation offense, and as most players can't rely on amazing athleticism the core skills of the game, passing, shooting and good team defense are really to the fore. Butter Suki spoke above about players who stayed longer in Europe, I think Rubio is a good example there. He was drafted in 2009, but stayed in Europe for 2 more years, and came to the US with an NBA ready game. His passing is marveled at, but that is because there are much less elite passers in the NBA then in Europe. That being said I still love watching the NBA, and will at some stage in the not too distant future(I hope) catch a Knicks game in MSG. There different games, both great, and both deserve respect.

limerickfc

Do ya know if theres anyway to view the country rankings for places allocated.?
Whats yer opinion on a joint english, Irish, scotish and welsh league.?
Surly that would atleast boost revenue and improve the quality all around?

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

Do ya know if theres anyway to view the country rankings for places allocated.?
Whats yer opinion on a joint english, Irish, scotish and welsh league.?
Surly that would atleast boost revenue and improve the quality all around?

Euroleague? No - closed shop and can't see that changing until the game picks up here. Reality is most teams at that level sell out 10,000-15,000 seater arenas for every game. Irish crowds are like 200 except for the very big games. Those crowds = revenue = higher standard of play. And a lot of the teams have huge backing through sponsors, very rich owners and affiliation to soccer teams (Real Madrid, FC Bareclona etc). It's a virtuous circle.

Joint league? Nice idea but the travel costs alone would exclude the Irish teams. Throw in the increased cost of a higher calibre American player(s) and it qucikly becomes a non-runner. Such a shame really. The mid-late 80s Irish teams could possibly have competed in this type of league but not now. Keep coming back to this point but it was the removal of the 2nd American that destroyed Irish Basketball.

And not forgetting gthe Scots and Welsh teams are worse than the Irish teams!

limerickfc

I suppose we can all dream ha

ButtersSuki

limerickfc wrote: »

I suppose we can all dream ha

Dream on dreamer!

For me a shocking inditement of the game is that the National female team (at the time ranked in the secoind tier of Euro women's basketball) was disbanded over not being able to secure €50k sponosrship to compete in the Euros. In the same week as Padriag Harrington reportedly signed/renewed a €300,000 sponsorship deal with O2......

So you have on one hand no national team of the most popular game for teenage girls in the country consumed across all demographics and income brackets; and on the other an elite sportsman cleaning up in a relatively elitist, minority sport. Strange world!

limerickfc

Yano never though ha 50 years down te line basketball here could be like rugby and we could have a munster team playing in the euroleague ha

Grand Moff Tarkin

limerickfc wrote: »

Yano never though ha 50 years down te line basketball here could be like rugby and we could have a munster team playing in the euroleague ha

Only for the rule change to one American per team at the start of the 90's we might have had one or two Cork teams playing Euroleague.:(