OTTB/Off Track Thoroughbreds as Riding Horses

Valentina

I did a search on boards.ie and couldn't find any threads about this already. So, anyone care to share their opinions on OTTB? What is your experience of them as riding horses?

I went to see a horse this morning that I am thinking of buying. He is a TB but has never raced. He was trained for racing but according to his current owner he had no interest so was retrained for riding. I hacked him and took him into a field for a canter and a jump and everything was really good. He ticks a lot of boxes for me - right age & height, has some xc and hunting experience which is what I'm most interested in doing, and is young enough that I think I could bring him on exactly how I want him... but I've spoken to my yard manager who has warned me not to buy a TB as he says they don't make great riding horses and I will regret it. I admit I have no experience of TBs, my pony is a cob and for the most part I have ridden/cared for cobs and draughts.

I know if the horse feels right to me I should just go for it but am I really getting myself into a world of trouble with an OTTB? Any TB owners care to share their thoughts?

later12

The best horse I ever owned was a former point to point gelding who retired from racing as a 12 y.o. I was competing in show jumping at local and school events at the time and to be honest, he just wasn't up for it. It is a big challenge to re-train these animals for show jumping and dressage, and it doesn't always succeed. But seeing as how you're mainly interested in XC & hunting, that shouldn't be a serious issue.

So if this mare is suitable in terms of vet soundness, responds satisfactorily to your natural aids & is without any problematic vices, I would highly recommend you consider taking her on. Mine became the best hunter I've ever had; very brave on the field, he would be the quickest horse in the yard to be galloping fit by Autumn, and although highly strung sometimes, was always enthusiastic and forward going.

Yes, TBs tend to be highly spirited. That can be a problem if you're a nervous or inexperienced rider, but going by your chosen disciplines I'm guessing you're not.

Another thing worth mentioning is that soundness can become an issue for some racehorses later in life. I was lucky with my guy, but I know others who have been less fortunate, especially in hunting. The only problem I had was keeping condition on mine in Winter, but that didn't really have any major effects. Apart from vaccinations and routine vet visits, he never saw the end of a stethoscope nor the prick of a needle until the last weeks of his life.

General soundness and life expectancy are statistically lower amongst TBs on account of their inbreeding depression and perhaps sustained exposure to vigorous training regimes, but mine passed away in the yard where he spent the last 11 years of his life and I'm hugely grateful to have had the opportunity to ride with him, and he left me with a much bigger appreciation for retired racers than I ever had before; and their athletic prowess needs no elaboration.

There is another aspect to this as well, though. There must be riders there to take on the many gifted horses that come off the P to P and racing tracks, or would otherwise meet a premature demise. As riders and clubs and organizations who make use of equine athletes, we have a responsibility toward them in return, especially when they show the flexibility to retrain and improve and get on with all of our strange and bizarre requests that they don't understand!

So to sum up, I would definitely encourage you to look further into taking on this retired racer; it's only one case but I've never regretted doing it for a second.

Heydeldel

You read my mind OP,

I'm considering buying an ex ptp horse. He's only 6 and raced twice. He's just not fast/competitive enough apparently and will more than likely end up at the factory if no one wants him soon.

Again, I was warned against taking on a TB. I know it would mean a lot of work.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? What do you think?

I know some friends who have ex racers and they turned out to be lovely riding horses. Just not for a novice rider.

I'm worried about the TB being very spooky and/or difficult to stop if he does decide to take off with me.

Have others found this to be a problem? What in particular would ppl suggest to look for when trying a TB?

I love boards for questions like this, lots of different opinions.

Esroh

Guys
Please dont let peoples predjice re TBs put you off.Race horse are trained to go at speed and fed accordingly so once off hard feed most will calm down. For a nation of Horse people we do not do our TB's who are not up to racing standard any justice. They are retrained as riding horse in most other racing countries. Look back at the USA equestrian championship history and you will see TB's winning many medals . Look at Tina Giffords list of horse she rode to represent GB eventing and most are TB's who were found to be to slow when trained by her father Josh

I can name 5 people within a 5 mile radius of me who have taken on TBs both off the track and unraced and are enjoying great riding horses. All 5 do a bit of everything.
I myself have a 10 year old who never made the track due to injury and is now my fun horse who does everything.
Most of TBs are broken the same way as sports horse but go in straight lines once they go into training and so it does mean going back to basics for a while. They often are quite one sided favouring a particular leg when cantering. Also on the bit means a completely different thing in racing.

The racehorse to riding classes at the Riding Club championships show what can be done.
If you find a TB that ticks the boxes and you are willing to put in the time then give it a go

fits

TBs are fantastic animals. They are beautiful, intelligent, talented.

Whoever said they were difficult to retrain for showjumping or dressage, I'd have to disagree. I think they're perfect for such a career, depending on the animal.

However they can be sharper than other horses. Its just a fact. There are some really quiet tbs, but on the whole when compared with other breeds such as say IDs, they are sharper. I would recommend only an experienced person take them on.

Another issue with them and again, not every animal is prone to it, but they can have soundness issues. Generally, their hair and skin is much finer than other horses. They get cut easily. They dont have the same bone in their legs.

If you're taking one on for hunting, I would recommend that you be aware of the sort of country you're going to be hunting across. As a rule, TBs are highly suitable for fast, open country, jumping hedges etc. More likely to find that around Kildare and Meath and some parts of Carlow. They are less suitable for trappy country, with big ditches and tricky stone walls.

I had a tb, beautiful animal and an absolute gentleman to handle. However he was constantly cutting himself and needed a lot of care. He was too sharp for the hunting field as well, and injured himself. He would have been perfect for the show ring and riding club and I'm annoyed I ever hunted him to be honest even though he was a big horse with a lot of bone. I'm probably going to stick with ID types in future as they're just easier for me to manage around my work.

paddi22

I have an ex-racer and he is a quirky nightmare. He is gorgeous, with lovely paces and an absolute gent on the ground, a total sweetheart and really cheeky.

Ridden though, he is very sharp and needs a massive amount of riding to keep him focused and well behaved. If he has more than two days off work he turns cheeky when you start riding again, so he has to be kept in constant work. I constantly have to watch his feed, supplements and turnout to keep his condition and energy levels right. He can be very sharp and spooky in new situations, so you really need to be very unfazed and confident to push him past it.

The sharper tbs take an extremely calm, confident rider to keep them sane. If someone tenses up on my lad, he would panic and lose the plot. They do make great riding horses with the correct rider. It was also difficult to reschool him when I got him first. You really have to teach them everything from scratch as they don't understand yielding to the leg, working from behind or bending correctly.

Saying that, some tbs are absolute pets to ride and very laid back and hassle free- just depends which type it is!

Heydeldel

Thanks Paddi22,

A good honest account!

Can you elaborate a bit more on what feeds/supplements you found good? I had a small TB years ago and found his feet to be weak. He needed supplements to strengthen his hooves.

I'm considering taking one on and eventually doing some riding club/ small shows. Nothing major, just have fun.

How would a big TB fit in with three ponies who have been together a long time? He'd have to be introduced slowly but i'm afraid the little trio are a very tight knit group.

paddi22

i have my lad on 'horse first relax me' and it seems to calm him down a notch. He is also on a herbal calming mix which has camomile and a few bits in it. I have never had any hassle with his feet luckily. I had assumed when i got him they would be a nightmare, but there's been no issues. The recent rain softened them, so he is on the horse first hoof supplement till they improve a bit.

My tb fitted in grand with the herd he went into and that included little ponies. He is very friendly and playful. It was gas seeing him racing down a field and then realising the tiny ponies were galloping about a mile behind him!

When i got him first he was skin and bones and a friend recommended Equivite Original, which was great.

Heydeldel

Thanks a mil, some food for thought there...excuse the pun! I'll keep those in mind.

Ah, I'm really excited to get my hands on this guy now, just hope he comes sound ad remains so.

Sounds like good fun watching the TB and ponies. At least he gets to be the fastest! I'm sure that does wonders for his confidence, haha.

Valentina

Thanks for all the replies. Some very good points made here so I have a lot to think on. Such a big decision to make but I don't know, I like the idea of the challenge. Maybe I'm being naive but I do have the time, the patience and the experience and it could be the making of us...

I'm going to see a different TB tomorrow so I'll keep all your posts in mind when I'm assessing him.

later12

Heydeldel wrote: »

How would a big TB fit in with three ponies who have been together a long time? He'd have to be introduced slowly but i'm afraid the little trio are a very tight knit group.

I've never experienced this as a problem. Most owners/ trainers would prefer their TBs grazed with the rather more serene ponies and cobs than other TBs; I think it's likely their easygoing nature rubs off on the TB as well in terms of antics in the paddock.

Heydeldel

That's true later12, less chance of him doing something silly to himself.

What about breeding, are there any Shires in particular people fancy? The horse I'm considering is by Flemensfirth who seems to be popular at the moment.

I don't know much about racing to be honest, just did a google search on him.

Also any saddle advice as the TBs tend to have very high withers?

Harric88

I've had an Arab, Anglo Arab and loaned an ex flat racer before. Personally they're the best horses as far as I'm concerned! I love a forward going ride thats responsive and never a dull moment. The ex-racer I loaned last year was 5 and her owner had no idea what she was doing this was her first horse she bought her for a very small amount (strange considering her bloodlines). She let the horse get away with murder however if she'd been trained properly she would have been a fantastic ride. Go for it competing in Racehorse to riding horse classes would make you feel so proud of what you've achieved - good luck

Valentina

I went out to see the first TB today and again had a lovely ride out but as soon as I mentioned getting my vet to have a look the seller completely changed their tune and said the horse was "cheap enough" to not need a vet cert??? This is despite agreeing to one earlier in the week. So my search for a horse continues.

Thanks again to all who posted with opinions and advice. OTTBs are definitely something I would consider and be interested in owning now.

later12

Valentina wrote: »

I went out to see the first TB today and again had a lovely ride out but as soon as I mentioned getting my vet to have a look the seller completely changed their tune and said the horse was "cheap enough" to not need a vet cert???

What a joker. He might consider the horse cheap enough, but would he pay any unexpected vet bills you'd get landed with (and some other poor wretch may well)?

Oh well, good luck in your search. Keep us updated:)

Heydeldel

This is interesting and worth flagging for the rest of us. I'll def keep this in mind when looking too.

I am wary of why some of these horses go so cheap, it can't be just that their 'too slow' etc, a well bred horse is always worth money unless there's something wrong.

Are trainers/owners etc. really not bothered retraining these so called 'slow. noncompetitive' horses for resale as something else?

Esroh

Heydeldel wrote: »

This is interesting and worth flagging for the rest of us. I'll def keep this in mind when looking too.

I am wary of why some of these horses go so cheap, it can't be just that their 'too slow' etc, a well bred horse is always worth money unless there's something wrong. Sorry but a well bred horse is only worth what other racing people will pay. If their handicap mark drops below a certain level then they cannot race. And if they drop that low then they would not be even worth entering in a flap. A Mare maybe worth a risk if her pedigree is good but a colt or a gelding a only worth meat money

Are trainers/owners etc. really not bothered retraining these so called 'slow. noncompetitive' horses for resale as something else? The majority of the racing world has no interest in a horse once it cannot win a race. Most Owners would not want to pay for retraining. Training is a business where you produce winners so having a horse taking up a stable to be retrained at 1/2 the fees of a Horse being trained for a race makes no economic sense.

As for the not wanting the veterinary.Pretty standard up to a certain value even in the Sports Horse world especially among dealers. 90% of racehorses would have things that would come up in a veterinary especially from the knee down but probably does not effect them in running . Its not worth the hassle to people to have them fail time and time again.
To be honest if you a going to see a TB which has come out of training due being to slow to its real value is 500 to 700e(depending on weight) at the gates of the factory minus the cost of getting there.

My lad cost me 800 euro and he would have failed a veterinary on sight but he has proved well worth every penny even if it was a bit of a risk

Valentina

Esroh wrote: »

As for the not wanting the veterinary.Pretty standard up to a certain value even in the Sports Horse world especially among dealers. 90% of racehorses would have things that would come up in a veterinary especially from the knee down but probably does not effect them in running . Its not worth the hassle to people to have them fail time and time again.
To be honest if you a going to see a TB which has come out of training due being to slow to its real value is 500 to 700e(depending on weight) at the gates of the factory minus the cost of getting there.

My lad cost me 800 euro and he would have failed a veterinary on sight but he has proved well worth every penny even if it was a bit of a risk

Interesting about the vetting. Sadly I'm just not in a position to take on a horse without vetting him first. My insurance won't cover a horse without a valid vet cert and for my own peace of mind I need to know that the animal is sound.

I'm off to see an Anglo Arab (my favourite breed as a child ) on Monday so maybe he'll be the one for me.

talullah

I own an ex-racer TB mare.....she's a fantastic riding horse. I use her mainly for hacking on roads and she's brilliant, doesn't spook or take off. She's just fantastic, fair enough she'll have her days when she doesn't want to listen but they're far and in between and partly because she's a mare lol.

I'm pretty much a novice rider (although very confident, i'd go through anything without thinking it could be dangerous or i could fall off lol) and the only thing she does to act up on me is nap the odd time but she's never acted in a way that would scare me or threaten to throw me off or anything. I find she's very willing and trusting and although sometimes stubborn, i wouldnt want her any different, she's great fun altogether.

I'd encourage you to take on a TB if it ticks the boxes for you. I got all the ''don't go near a TB'' 'warnings' and ill tell ya, i'm glad i didnt listen.

Heydeldel

Thanks for all the info!

Do racers not have to be vetted regularly/ before certain races? I'm really showing my ignorance of the industry here!

It is shame that so many are packed off to the meat factory, it's a very unforgiving industry. That's where the TB i'm considering is going if no one wants him soon. :eek:

How does insurance work if your horse fails on one or two areas of a vetting? Can the vet make an observation about certain fault and still pass the horse.

For instance, a common to TBs are wind problems, they can still race but are not 100%. Will they pass a vetting? Likewise with other lumps and bumps they pick up in training?

How does that work out when insuring?

Have to say I love TBs, when I was 14 I bought a 4 yr old TB who was too small to race ( about 14.3) and loved him to bits. In fairness I hadn't a clue what I was doing then and either did my parents. So if I could handle one then surely I can survive one now!

Ah the fearlessness of youth!

Valentina

Heydeldel wrote: »

Thanks for all the info!

Do racers not have to be vetted regularly/ before certain races? I'm really showing my ignorance of the industry here!

It is shame that so many are packed off to the meat factory, it's a very unforgiving industry. That's where the TB i'm considering is going if no one wants him soon. :eek:

It's a disgrace. To think a horse could work so hard for you and then just be packed off like s/he is nothing makes me so upset. it's the same with greyhounds though. If the animal isn't making any money then some owners won't keep them.

Heydeldel wrote: »

How does insurance work if your horse fails on one or two areas of a vetting? Can the vet make an observation about certain fault and still pass the horse.

For instance, a common to TBs are wind problems, they can still race but are not 100%. Will they pass a vetting? Likewise with other lumps and bumps they pick up in training?

How does that work out when insuring?

I'm not too sure either. This is the first horse I'm buying off my own bat. My pony was bought for me as a child some years ago and that was really before vetting/insurance/passports was such a big issue, so this is all quite new to me.

Heydeldel wrote: »

Have to say I love TBs, when I was 14 I bought a 4 yr old TB who was too small to race ( about 14.3) and loved him to bits. In fairness I hadn't a clue what I was doing then and either did my parents. So if I could handle one then surely I can survive one now!

Ah the fearlessness of youth!

Ah to be 14 again! :D

Heydeldel

I know! when I think of how fearless I was back then. I think I'd cry if I fell off so much now! haha.

There's nothing like the bond between a teenage girl and her beloved pony either. I trusted him to look after me and he did.

Esroh

Guys
A vet cert is only an opinion at the time. I have a copy of the Certs for use at auction in Ireland looking at it the important parts which the Veterinary Surgeon signs his name to are
a)I declare that the horse certified here(as in the marking chart on the cert) is the one described.
b)I find no clinically discoverable signs of disease,injury or physical abnormality other than those recorded.
And then this which is the important one

c)Opinion. on the grounds of probabilities of the conditions set out above are/are not likely to effect the animals use for (whatever you intend to do)

The following note is on the back re c) The Opinion expressed is solely on the clinical examination set out above at the time and on the day shown.

So if you are looking at a TB with wind problems and your vet signs a cert that in his opinion it will not effect his use for riding,showjumping and dressage then your Insurance company should accept it. But if down the line you go eventing , Qualify for Badminton and are longlisted for Rio 2016 then they will not cover you on that cert if you need a wind op.


You mentioned passports. If you not shown it(easy to check markings) by an owner than be careful. Trainers have been known to hold on to Passports if a bill is not paid and you may never see it. This will mean a re issue which may require a blood test

later12

Esroh wrote: »

As for the not wanting the veterinary.Pretty standard up to a certain value even in the Sports Horse world especially among dealers. 90% of racehorses would have things that would come up in a veterinary especially from the knee down but probably does not effect them in running .

I'm going to have to politely disagree here, if (and I may be misinterpreting your post) what you're alluding to is that a vet check is dispensible when dealing with ex racers.

Of course for dealers who are well used to differentiating between bumps, blemishes & ailments & observing soundness, a vet check can be superfluous.

But for the one-off buyer or the small horseman, even a very basic vetting is one of the most crucial aspects of the buying process. People who do not deal with horses every day can so easily miss an unusually rigid gait, or heat in a joint, and may not know how to do a flexion exam.

I appreciate that a lot of the issues that can show up in vetting aren't necessarily serious, depending on the use that the horse will be put to under new ownership.

But that should be a decision for the prospective buyer to make when fully informed. Just because a horse fails the Vet, doesn't mean he can no longer be sold. But it does mean that the buyer is in a better position to understand the risks, and in a business as financially risky as horse ownership, that's an important safeguard. And so is insurance, which as Valentina said she needs. I think it's great to see prospective buyers really care about buying sound animals and insuring their animals. I think it's great for the industry and should be wholeheartedly encouraged.

Heydeldel

I think Esroh was trying to explain ( hope i'm not putting words in your mouth Esroh!) why some sellers are reluctant to have the horse vetted. They dismiss it as being too much fuss or something that only high performing horses need to have done - just extra hassle.

For me a vet check would just serve to back up (hopefully not disprove) what a seller told me about the horse. Sometimes you just can't be 100% sure about old injuries etc. If someone wants to sell a horse badly enough they could be liable to tell you anything.

I had a farrier years ago who used to tell me not to worry about my little TBs weak hooves. 'Sure it's a long way from his heart' he'd laugh at me. I got a different farrier who shod him differently and advised on a supplement. Lesson being it always helps to have a second opinion. Especially for the novice owner. Some dealers etc can smell the inexperience a mile off.

byhookorbycrook

Valentina wrote: »

I went out to see the first TB today and again had a lovely ride out but as soon as I mentioned getting my vet to have a look the seller completely changed their tune and said the horse was "cheap enough" to not need a vet cert???

RUN as fast as you can.No vet cert=no comeback.

As to factorying horses, I'd prefer a person make this choice rather than have the horse starve over the winter.

Valentina

Esroh wrote: »

Guys
A vet cert is only an opinion at the time. I have a copy of the Certs for use at auction in Ireland looking at it the important parts which the Veterinary Surgeon signs his name to are
a)I declare that the horse certified here(as in the marking chart on the cert) is the one described.
b)I find no clinically discoverable signs of disease,injury or physical abnormality other than those recorded.
And then this which is the important one

c)Opinion. on the grounds of probabilities of the conditions set out above are/are not likely to effect the animals use for (whatever you intend to do)

The following note is on the back re c) The Opinion expressed is solely on the clinical examination set out above at the time and on the day shown.

So if you are looking at a TB with wind problems and your vet signs a cert that in his opinion it will not effect his use for riding,showjumping and dressage then your Insurance company should accept it. But if down the line you go eventing , Qualify for Badminton and are longlisted for Rio 2016 then they will not cover you on that cert if you need a wind op.


You mentioned passports. If you not shown it(easy to check markings) by an owner than be careful. Trainers have been known to hold on to Passports if a bill is not paid and you may never see it. This will mean a re issue which may require a blood test

Thanks for that - I've never actually seen a vet cert so good to know what they should detail.

I understand that a vet cert is just the opinion of that vet on the day but at least it allows me to make an informed decision. Some people are happy to take a chance but I can't afford an expensive mistake.

later12 wrote: »

I'm going to have to politely disagree here, if (and I may be misinterpreting your post) what you're alluding to is that a vet check is dispensible when dealing with ex racers.

Of course for dealers who are well used to differentiating between bumps, blemishes & ailments & observing soundness, a vet check can be superfluous.

But for the one-off buyer or the small horseman, even a very basic vetting is one of the most crucial aspects of the buying process. People who do not deal with horses every day can so easily miss an unusually rigid gait, or heat in a joint, and may not know how to do a flexion exam.

I appreciate that a lot of the issues that can show up in vetting aren't necessarily serious, depending on the use that the horse will be put to under new ownership.

But that should be a decision for the prospective buyer to make when fully informed. Just because a horse fails the Vet, doesn't mean he can no longer be sold. But it does mean that the buyer is in a better position to understand the risks, and in a business as financially risky as horse ownership, that's an important safeguard. And so is insurance, which as Valentina said she needs. I think it's great to see prospective buyers really care about buying sound animals and insuring their animals. I think it's great for the industry and should be wholeheartedly encouraged.

This. Very well said.

Esroh

I totally understand where Valentina is coming from re the risk.
And was definitely not advising anyone to buy a horse without a vet cert. Just explaining the attitude of the person she was dealing with from my own experience.
The owner saw the asking price as worth a risk(considering what this slow racehorse has cost him) and did not want a vet giving Valentina a list of things that although they may not effect the horses ability to do what she wants , does give her a list with which to beat down the price.

later12

Ah yes Esroh I would empathise with that.

Like anyone else who's been buying and selling horses for years, I can understand the feeling of exasperation when someone gets pedantic with irrelevant vet remarks. Or indeed when they demand a vet check for an animal you already know to be sound. It's even more aggravating in the current market, where so many animals are available to purchase at exceptionally reasonable prices.

But to detach ourselves from that position, the vet check is an important safeguard which can only improve the quality of horse that is bred and sold on the Irish market; or at least lets hope so !

In the long run, it's better for all of us.

Valentina

Okay
Went to see a OTTB gelding this morning. He was bred for p2p but was too slow. He's been retrained for riding and has done a few shows and events. I rode him, jumped him and was so happy I didn't want to get off!

I'm hoping to get my vet out to him on Friday and if all goes well...

mystika121

Valentina wrote: »

Okay
Went to see a OTTB gelding this morning. He was bred for p2p but was too slow. He's been retrained for riding and has done a few shows and events. I rode him, jumped him and was so happy I didn't want to get off!

I'm hoping to get my vet out to him on Friday and if all goes well...

He sounds lovely and it's a great feeling when you are getting on so well that you don't want to get off! Fixed crossed for you that all goes well at the vetting on Friday.

My tip would be to find out as much as possible about how the horse is currently managed and keep to that as much as you can - even during the Winter (with only the necessary changes such as rugging, additional feed etc). It sounds like it's really working for him.

Sometimes a TB can become quite sharp to ride when they way they are managed changes over Winter. For example, if when the horse is bought he has been out on grass for a few months after racing, then lives out with no hard feed (and a grass belly) and is reschooled / competed from grass and that changes over Winter to a horse that is stabled, clipped and with limited turnout then sometimes there can be a change in the horses behaviour.