Sean Quinn - whats the business view

sandin

From all the comments here and some other research, I'm concluding that Quinn was making loads of dosh (circa €400m in 2006/2007) and decided to gamble on Anglo thinking the boom would go on.

Once questions were being asked about Anglo's dubious lending proctices in 2007, Sean Quinn started chasing the losses rather than accepting that his gamble was not going to pay off. In early 2007, that would have cost him about €300m. (manageable, but still would hurt) Problem was he, just like many gamblers, he thought he could chase the losses and increased his shareholding to 25% and when the price fell further, the game was up.

The only question that I find unanswered is what was Sean Fitzpatrick's involvement in everything. Quinn is saying nothing and fitzpatrick is saying nothing and that's puzzling.

Bobbyknock

sandin wrote: »

The only question that I find unanswered is what was Sean Fitzpatrick's involvement in everything. Quinn is saying nothing and fitzpatrick is saying nothing and that's puzzling.

In a nut shell your post Sandin is pretty bang on.

The answer to your question I think is a very simple and straight forward one. Sean Fitz along with David Drumm were the chief decision makers in granting the finance to Quinn to cover his losses.

It was wrong of them to have intervened and provided these loans. Without going into the complexities of it they did so on the basis that they thought they could protect Anglo's share price from collapsing competely.

Sean Fitz had a lot of paper wealth in Anglo and all his loans were backed by this paper value. The tanking of the share price would have put him under serious financial duress, similar to what Quinn was experiencing at the time.

If Anglo failed, he was failed and hence he felt he had no other option but to provide the loans perhaps as a last throw of the dice.

Seanie just like Quinn was a controller and nobody at Anglo was probably able to stand up to him to point out his errors of judgement.

The fall from grace that these guys experienced must have been awful mental anguish that many of us will never fully comprehend how bad the torment was.

smeharg

paulfurlong wrote: »

Are you serious when you say Sean Quinn was not bailed out by Anglo????? Where else was he going to get the billions he owed on his CFD accounts?

How exactly was he burdoned with the debt?
He sought and was provided with an out in preventing the CFD providers from closing in on him (through loans).
He had lost his bet and he had to cough up. If Anglo did not provide the loans he was most definitely finito. Anglo provided him with a stay of execution for him to try and turn things around. Unfortunately that did not transpire.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it was inappropriate for Anglo to lend him the money to fund his losses. Of course they had their own motives in doing so. No one is suggesting otherwise.
This was a clear conflict of interest on their part and the courts should decide what are the consequences for such an action.

Both parties clearly acted under serious duress and stress. Both acted irrationally.

Call it what you will, in my mind bail out implies some sort of better deal. Don't forget Sean Quinn effectively handed over the keys to the Quinn Group when he took those loans out. He was able to keep the CFD providers at bay but all it did was to put the repayment date off.

My understanding is that by the time it came round to the whole Maple 10 episode Anglo basically had Quinn over a barrell and he was told what to do. Anglo had played along hoping Quinn would unwind his positions, but he didn't he actually got in deeper. I think that was before stress and duress really kicked in which is why I made reference to the "investments" as being either naive or stupid.

JD Dublin

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Clearly “Quinnspin” works. I am frankly amazed at how many people have been takin in by the plight of a man who was clearly out of control, a veritable megalomaniac who gambled the lot on trying to get control of a bank. He lost and now thinks he should not have to pay. His prior business practices were clearly more than dubious with some extraordinary financial engineering moves to forgive intercompany debt and enrich his family. It is no coincidence that many of his "family" investments were in the murky zones of the former USSR where the rule of law is down to individual interpretation.

If you look at the major business that Quinn was involved in, he sought to dominate in those sectors by predatory pricing to capture market share at any price. A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

In addition to the Anglo gambling bill left behind, he bled Quinn Insurance to prop up his group by raping the cash out of that business and has left us all with another 1 Billion to pick up on his behalf over the next twenty years in insurance levies.

Quinn is far from alone, the Treasury Boys, Brian O’Donnell, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Shovlin, Bernard McNamara , Liam Carroll, Dunner, Drumm , Fingers, Seanie, ... the list goes on and on
These empire builders who obviously saw themselves as masters of the universe have badly tainted the reputation of all of us who run businesses. The mass of debt left behind by these guys will be paid by our children and our children’s children, but Quinn seems to still believe that his kids should keep their incomes and personal wealth. Ah God love him, the man is not well in the head. He should seek advice from Pee Flynn.

I 100% agree with this comment - I don't believe bankruptcy should be a life sentence either. The Quinns should be let get on with their lives - but only when they have coughed up the €500 million in property they are trying to hold on to, just like every other bankrupt out there.

As we ruminate about these former masters of the universe, we should bear in mind that the Quinn debacle alone will cost approximately €700 for every man, woman and child in the country. Here are the sums - €2,800,000,000 ( €2.8 billion ) divided by 4,000,000 ( 4 million ) people = €700

BostonB

Basically they ALL gambled to win. Rather than cutting their losses. As a result turned massive debt into vast unimaginable debt and broke not just the bank but the country.

sandin

JD Dublin wrote: »

I 100% agree with this comment - I don't believe bankruptcy should be a life sentence either. The Quinns should be let get on with their lives - but only when they have coughed up the €500 million in property they are trying to hold on to, just like every other bankrupt out there.

As we ruminate about these former masters of the universe, we should bear in mind that the Quinn debacle alone will cost approximately €700 for every man, woman and child in the country. Here are the sums - €2,800,000,000 ( €2.8 billion ) divided by 4,000,000 ( 4 million ) people = €700

Problem is Quinns tried to settle in a way that would have left them with at least something to show for their many years of great work, but IBRC wanted blood.

If IBRC/Anglo took some blame and were open to a deal, then a lot of crap probably would not have happened.

Froma legal point of view, if it is found that the loans from anglo to quinn were illegal, then we're into unchartered waters and it will probably end up in european supreme court.

Peterdalkey

If it does go that way, it is highly unlikely that any court would ever find that only one side acted improperly in this matter. How many of villains in this saga can the authorities nail is the real question.