Lungworm?

paultf

Anyone any experience of lungworm?

I came across this PDF about a case of lungworm in Lucan. This vet practice now recommends a spot on treatment that covers lungworm, worms and fleas.

http://www.myvet.ie/blog/wp-content/plugins/as-pdf/generate.php?post=210

I am bit worried about one of my dogs and I am wondering if its lungworm?

Over the last few weeks I have slugs in my back garden which I pick up. Of my dogs, Kelly would be the very one to eat one.

She has these symptons:
* She is usually a very good eater - last week though she has become very slow and of the 3 dogs she finished last. Normally she is so quick she is always first. This morning she refused her food.
* She has lost weight. Normally 10kg - now 7.7kg.
* Tonight she attempted to vomit twice - only tiny amounts came out.
* Her gums are a very 'bloody' red - compared to the other dogs they just don't look right.
* Kelly is always full of energy but she has slowed down a bit. She is only 2 years old.

Anyone any experience of this? Or I am jumping to conclusions?

ABajaninCork

You should get her to the vet ASAP, rather than posting on a forum. A 2kg loss of weight in a dog is pretty serious.

How long has she been like this?

Millem

Paultf ring vet ASAP. Just looking at the link and vet now recommends a spot on which I presume is advocate? Ucd have told me that monthly spot on advocate (which is expensive) is not sufficient to prevent lungworm and you must use a seperate wormer something like norworm granules (which are very cheap!)

paultf

Towards the end of last week while eating her food she slowed down. I thought maybe she might be getting tired of her food.

On Monday she has started on anti-inflam's as she strained the ligaments on her shoulder. So I have been keeping her in a crate/kennel most of this week to keep her rested.

When I bring her out to the back garden she seems her normal self - goes to the toliet and stretches her legs. Barks and looks to play - but I bring her back in quickly to the kennel to protect her shoulder.

She refused her food this morning - which she never does. She ate her dinner but attempted a vomit for the first time - small amount of liquid came out.

Then later I had pasta for tea and I gave her a small amount. She tried to vomit again but nothing came out.

I had a look at the symptons on www.lungworm.co.uk but I can't say for sure if they apply to Kelly. The only reason why I thought of LW was because of a poster in the vet's.

Millem

paultf wrote: »

Towards the end of last week while eating her food she slowed down. I thought maybe she might be getting tired of her food.

On Monday she has started on anti-inflam's as she strained the ligaments on her shoulder. So I have been keeping her in a crate/kennel most of this week to keep her rested.

When I bring her out to the back garden she seems her normal self - goes to the toliet and stretches her legs. Barks and looks to play - but I bring her back in quickly to the kennel to protect her shoulder.

She refused her food this morning - which she never does. She ate her dinner but attempted a vomit for the first time - small amount of liquid came out.

Then later I had pasta for tea and I gave her a small amount. She tried to vomit again but nothing came out.

I had a look at the symptons on www.lungworm.co.uk but I can't say for sure if they apply to Kelly. The only reason why I thought of LW was because of a poster in the vet's.

Seriously ring vet, if not open leave a message on machine or better still do you have vets mobile? One of my dogs got tested for lungworm they take a poo sample and test it, and treated her for it anyway over a few days. (turns she didn't have it!) those granules I mentioned are so cheap like €0.50 a sachet it is not worth the risk!

paultf

Just rang the out of hours vet and described the symptons I listed in the previous post.

He doesn't think it's lungworm but did say there could be something wrong - maybe with her digestive system.

So I'll try her with her breakfast in the morning - just to see how she is. Then I'll go the vet first thing anyways.

Hopefully I got the LW diagnois wrong. I was in the vet's at the start of the week and they was a massive poster on the wall. Stuck in my mind.

From the small bit I read it seems I should be treating for LW all the time. The regular worming tabs don't cover it.

Does anybody treat for LW regularly?

ABajaninCork

EDIT - Just saw what you posted. I give my dog Millbemax which does treat lungworm as well as heartworm. He gets a tablet every three months. I think Drontal does it as well.

paultf

ABajaninCork wrote: »

EDIT - Just saw what you posted. I give my dog Millbemax which does treat lungworm as well as heartworm. He gets a tablet every three months. I think Drontal does it as well.

I use Drontal Plus. I worm and flea (Frontline) every 3 months.

Reading the instructions:-

* It doesn't cover lungworm.

* Covers: tapeworms and roundworm which includes Ascarids, Hookworms, Whipworms, Tapeworms.

I'll change.

Millem

ABajaninCork wrote: »

EDIT - Just saw what you posted. I give my dog Millbemax which does treat lungworm as well as heartworm. He gets a tablet every three months. I think Drontal does it as well.

Ucd told me a 3 month dose of milbemax would not be suffient for lungworm as I only used to use milbemax (which is more expensive). I think it will only work if you give it every 3-4 weeks from my memory. It was a year when it all happened. I never leave my dogs unattended in garden and last week every night we literally picked up 30 slugs every night for 3 nights in a row and moved them to front garden!

paultf

Just did a quick search on Milbemax.

I think the main Milbemax site says every 3 months but I have seen some posts on forums in the UK where vets are recommending every 4 weeks.

Plus one site says it "reduces the infection of lungworm" - does that mean it still doesn't prevent it totally?

In saying that it's probably the best one out there at the moment.

ABajaninCork

I give the dog his dose every three months, and that's on the vet's recommendation. But then again, I live in a city.

It really depends on the area you live in and the prevalence of the parasites. I would speak to your vet.

Millem

paultf wrote: »

Just did a quick search on Milbemax.

I think the main Milbemax site says every 3 months but I have seen some posts on forums in the UK where vets are recommending every 4 weeks.

Plus one site says it "reduces the infection of lungworm" - does that mean it still doesn't prevent it totally?

In saying that it's probably the best one out there at the moment.

Paultf as I said before the only thing that works 100% on lungworm are those granules. Since Ucd told me I have stopped using milbemax and have switched to endogard xl or cestem Xl as why should I pay €16 to worm a dog on milbemax when cestem xl will do the job for €4. Ucd told me you need to worm separately for lungworm with those granules. (unless you use milbemax every 4 weeks which i am not doing!) Ucd are obsessed with lungworm so I would listen to them over a regular vet!

ABajaninCork

It's simple. Either the OP calls his vet (who should know the correct dose) or he can call UCD. Then again, I would hardly call the Royal Vet College every time my dog had a problem. No need for a debate.

SillyMangoX

What anti inflammatory is she on? Are you making sure to give it with food? They can be very harsh on the stomach so that may be making her sick. Not saying to disregard the lungworm theory but it is worth considering.

paultf

Millem wrote: »

Paultf as I said before the only thing that works 100% on lungworm are those granules.

Can you get these online (google didn't show much) or do you get them from the vet?

paultf

SillyMangoX wrote: »

What anti inflammatory is she on? Are you making sure to give it with food? They can be very harsh on the stomach so that may be making her sick. Not saying to disregard the lungworm theory but it is worth considering.

I can't make out the writing on the plastic bag the tablets are in but they are a big brown tablet, with the letter 'R', which I cut in half. (If that helps identify???)

I give the tablet after breakfast. Normally she is great with everything - strong stomach and eats everything. I have given her worming tablets before, for e.g, and she had no problem.

She was very slow to eat her food last week which is unusual for her. So I think the problem may have started then. I just thought she was getting tired of eating the same plain food everyday. She still ate the food so no alarm bells on my part.

Also this morning she went to the toilet as normal - her stools were fine.

Also with the weight loss there might be another explanation, I have the dogs on Burns and sometimes they can lose weight esp. if I am cutting back on treats. I have heard alot of people say that about Burns.

tk123

paultf wrote: »

I can't make out the writing on the plastic bag the tablets are in but they are a big brown tablet, with the letter 'R', which I cut in half. (If that helps identify???)

That's Rimadyl - it can be hard on their stomach and in my experience spaces them out a bit so that would probably explain some of her symptoms. Also she may just be fed up being restricted or might be in a bit of pain? Bailey's fine with metacam and rimadyl but there's another one which doesn't agree with him.. rimadyl doesn't agree with his friend and gives him and upset tummy so it can be trail and error.

paultf

tk123 wrote: »

That's Rimadyl - it can be hard on their stomach and in my experience spaces them out a bit so that would probably explain some of her symptoms.

OK. That's good info. That might explain the vomiting today. She didn't eat her breakfast but I still gave the anti-flam. Wasn't thinking . Should have really given her some sort of food - maybe homemade chicken & rice. I just thought she was kicking up cause she was tired of Burns.

The slow picking of the food started last week before the anti-flam tablets though.

I'll see what she is like in the morning.

Millem

paultf wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

Paultf as I said before the only thing that works 100% on lungworm are those granules.

Can you get these online (google didn't show much) or do you get them from the vet?

Get from vet, the brand Ucd use is called norworm, but I am sure there are a few brands out there. From looking at the back of a 5g sachet the active ingredient is 1000mg fenbendazole. I found these online and look very similar http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-worming-cat-worming-panacur-fenbendazole-wormers-c-17_43/panacur-wormer-granules-sachets-p-1665
http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/panacur_granules/090_product_datasheet.aspx the only difference is the sachet size. Reading my norworm it says to treat lungworm it's a sachet per 22kg per day for 7 days. For routine treatment it is 2 sachets per 22kg in one dose!

anniehoo

Advocate spot on used monthly...not every 3 mths is now used as a Lungworm (Angiostrongylus vasorum) type of "preventative". It also treats for fleas,lice,common roundworms,hookworms and whipworms. Not tapeworm though so its advisable to add Drontal in aswell every 3mths.No wormer really "prevents" infection as such it just kills the larvae before they reach maturity.

The problem with lungworm and the reason it is advised to treat monthly for this is the prepatent period i.e.the time of infection to the animal presenting with symptoms is it can happen with 28-100 days. So,realistically a dog can get infected and be symptomatic within your normal worming protocol of every 3mths.

All of the different products that are on the market can be very confusing but dont panic if you're not doing this every month. Lungworm is on the increase but its really only worth worrying if your dog is a snail eater (the intermediate lungworm host).Most dogs really aren't and its more prevalent in younger dogs generally as they're more likely to eat anything that looks remotely tasty.

Millem is correct, you can also use Norworm (active ingredient is fenbendazole) either. Symptoms of lungworm infection can be lethargy,weight loss and coughing for example but this doesnt sound like your dogs problem. An inflammatory process rather than parasitic sounds more likely and >2kg weight loss in a small dog over such a short period of time really should be investigated by your vet tbh.

maggiepip

Millem wrote: »

Paultf as I said before the only thing that works 100% on lungworm are those granules. Since Ucd told me I have stopped using milbemax and have switched to endogard xl or cestem Xl as why should I pay €16 to worm a dog on milbemax when cestem xl will do the job for €4. Ucd told me you need to worm separately for lungworm with those granules. (unless you use milbemax every 4 weeks which i am not doing!) Ucd are obsessed with lungworm so I would listen to them over a regular vet!

Thats really useful information - I was wondering the same about milbemax - it says it only reduces lungworm so theres no point in using it.

I also didnt want to use milbemax on my collie as it has a ingredient from the invermectin family in it (some collies react badly to invermectin) - oh Im sure risk is minimal but Id rather use something without a question mark hanging over it, however small.

paultf

Just an update on Kelly if anyone is interested.

I toke her to vets today. You were right about the anti-inflam's. The vet reckoned they caused the vomitting yesterday. So Kelly is off those.

She doesn't have lungworm either (I think I put 2 + 2 together and got....!)

The main point is Kelly has been eating her food over the last 2 weeks but has completely slowed down. She loves her food. She gets Burns chicken and brown rice twice a day. She has been on this all her life - 2.5 years. Also her main treat is air-dried 100% chicken breasts which I get from ZooPlus.

She is eating her food but literally eating one kibble at a time, which is not like her. She always gobbles it up and is first to finish. Yesterday she refused breakfast but ate dinner.

The vet toke bloods - nothing wrong.

Then the vet x-rayed Kelly's throat and stomach - nothing wrong.

The vet now thinks it's food intolerance (allergy?). So I left with a small bag of Royal Canin Sensitivity Control (duck). And some 'liquids' I give via a plastic tube to counter any acid.

So for dinner tonite she got half Burns, half RC. She ate it but very slowly (sheepish after the x-rays.)

If she doesn't like Burns why slowly eat it - why doesn't she leave it alone?

Also her favourite treat is the air-dried chicken, so does that mean maybe she is allergic to rice?

Even after she strained the ligaments in her shoulder last Friday, for the last 2 weeks of slow eating, she was still full of energy.

I am confused by this. The vet asked us to come in next week - check weight etc. Next step is a scan, the vet said.

(I said in my first post that Kelly's weight was 7.7kg - she was weighed on Monday at the vets. Normally she is around 10kg. Today for some reason she weighed 8.4kg.)

Anyone any ideas?

ABajaninCork

paultf wrote: »

Just an update on Kelly if anyone is interested.

I toke her to vets today. You were right about the anti-inflam's. The vet reckoned they caused the vomitting yesterday. So Kelly is off those.

She doesn't have lungworm either (I think I put 2 + 2 together and got....!)

The main point is Kelly has been eating her food over the last 2 weeks but has completely slowed down. She loves her food. She gets Burns chicken and brown rice twice a day. She has been on this all her life - 2.5 years. Also her main treat is air-dried 100% chicken breasts which I get from ZooPlus.

She is eating her food but literally eating one kibble at a time, which is not like her. She always gobbles it up and is first to finish. Yesterday she refused breakfast but ate dinner.

The vet toke bloods - nothing wrong.

Then the vet x-rayed Kelly's throat and stomach - nothing wrong.

The vet now thinks it's food intolerance (allergy?). So I left with a small bag of Royal Canin Sensitivity Control (duck). And some 'liquids' I give via a plastic tube to counter any acid.

So for dinner tonite she got half Burns, half RC. She ate it but very slowly (sheepish after the x-rays.)

If she doesn't like Burns why slowly eat it - why doesn't she leave it alone?

Also her favourite treat is the air-dried chicken, so does that mean maybe she is allergic to rice?

Even after she strained the ligaments in her shoulder last Friday, for the last 2 weeks of slow eating, she was still full of energy.

I am confused by this. The vet asked us to come in next week - check weight etc. Next step is a scan, the vet said.

(I said in my first post that Kelly's weight was 7.7kg - she was weighed on Monday at the vets. Normally she is around 10kg. Today for some reason she weighed 8.4kg.)

Anyone any ideas?

Glad to hear it wasn't what you thought OP, and happy to hear she's putting on a little weight! Might be that your little girl is indeed allergic to rice, and it's now catching up with her. You're on the right track though giving her half Burns and half the new food. Gradually up the new food and cut down on the Burns until she's completely used to it, and see how you get on.

Take her back to the vet next week and see what he says. BTW - Did you speak to the vet about the Millbemax and worming powders?

Good luck - I'm sure the vet will get to the bottom of it soon.

tk123

Sounds like you're both going thru the mill the last few weeks! My guy developed an intolerance like that - I put him on sensitivity control for a couple of weeks - just that and nothing else. Once he was ok again I slowly introduced other things one at a time every few days to eliminate/find what was causing the problem.I was 99% sure it was his rice based Luath (which is almost identical to Burns) so left that until last to try him with and sure enough it was the problem so switched him to cereal free JWB for convienience(it happened before his operation and he was going to be crated/restricted for 12 weeks)..then once he was out of the crate we switched to raw/barf and haven't looked back! Burns do a cereal free food - you could maybe try that if you've been happy up until now with Burns?

maggiepip

I presume what your vet is saying, in brief, is that a food intolerance/allergy has caused your dog to be unwell and lose her appetite - and that is why she is only picking at her food.....and the anti inflams made her totally sick on top of all this?

Well I suppose see how she goes tomorrow on the new food, thats all you can do for the moment, unless she gets worse. It is a little mysterious alright.

If a dog doesnt like a certain food or feel unwell they will just pick at it, they wont necessarily totally ignore it. Did you offer her any plain chicken or anything like that?

Hopefully she will start to improve.

paultf

ABajaninCork wrote: »

BTW - Did you speak to the vet about the Millbemax and worming powders?

The vet asked me if I was using Millbemax as that would cover LW.

I told her I was using Drontal Plus, which she thought covered LW. I had to point out it didn't!

I didn't talk to her about worming powders but going by the information that Milem gave, I might use the worming powder, Panacur, aswell as Drontal Plus. I can get both online. The powder is cheap.

At the moment I give Drontal Plus every 3 months. I was thinking maybe alternating every 6 weeks between the Drontal and powder.

paultf

tk123 wrote: »

My guy developed an intolerance like that - I put him on sensitivity control for a couple of weeks - just that and nothing else.

What kind of symptons did your dog show for food intolerance?

Did your dog pick at his food but still eat it in the end?

paultf

maggiepip wrote: »

I presume what your vet is saying, in brief, is that a food intolerance/allergy has caused your dog to be unwell and lose her appetite - and that is why she is only picking at her food.....and the anti inflams made her totally sick on top of all this?

Yes, that's the line she is taking. Then she is talking about a scan as the next step.

I wonder though would an allergy test be another idea?

maggiepip wrote: »

If a dog doesnt like a certain food or feel unwell they will just pick at it, they wont necessarily totally ignore it. Did you offer her any plain chicken or anything like that?

When I give Kelly her 100% chicken treat, she eats it as quick as she can - as fast as she used to eat her kibble.

So maybe it is the rice?

tk123

paultf wrote: »

tk123 wrote: »

My guy developed an intolerance like that - I put him on sensitivity control for a couple of weeks - just that and nothing else.

What kind of symptons did your dog show for food intolerance?

Did your dog pick at his food but still eat it in the end?

He got the worse runs he ever had - loads of blood and mucus in them and got really lethargic and wouldn't eat or drink. He's had the runs before but would be fine - not out if sorts or anything. Tried starving him etc but either he wouldn't eat or was getting stick so brought him to the vet...he magically perked up when the til closed lol . I give him potato instead of rice and no probs - he'll drop what he's doing (even a bone) and come running if he hears the masher coming out to chance getting a sample lol!

maggiepip

paultf wrote: »

Yes, that's the line she is taking. Then she is talking about a scan as the next step.

I wonder though would an allergy test be another idea?



When I give Kelly her 100% chicken treat, she eats it as quick as she can - as fast as she used to eat her kibble.

So maybe it is the rice?

Well look at it this way, prior to going on the anti-inflams she had just gone off her food and lost weight right? (it was the anti-inflams that (probably) made her start vomiting).

But when she was off her food prior to the anti-inflams she wasnt vomiting or didnt have diarrhoea - right?


So if the above is the case I dont see how that necessarily points to an allergy/intolerance. Could she possibly have just gone off her dry food altogether?


The thing is - rice COULD be causing a problem but she wont refuse to eat something with rice because she is allergic to it, shes obviously not going to connect that, she only wont eat food with rice if she doesnt like rice.

From what I see here (just going on the facts and I could be totally missing something) if this were my dog I would try getting the weight back on with a different diet altogether, perhaps chicken with a decent tinned food, or a few home cooked meals for a few days and see how she goes with that.

PS When I say "home cooked meals" I mean bland meals like some plain chicken mixed with a little mashed potato - something like that, and then slowly introduce a decent tinned food, but do it slowly - its worth a try anyway. If shes gobbling it up and theres no vomiting or runs then you have your answer.

Is she eating the new sensitive food with any enthusiasm?