esb micro generation

Agri contractor

if I produced say 6kw /hr of electricity using bio diesel in a genererator would I qualify for the smart meter ?

EI: Una

Hi Agri contractor,

The smart meter project is still in the process of being rolled out. Smart meters will become available to all households from 2015 onwards. The best resource for detailed info at present is the website of the Commision for Energy Regulation (CER) and this link.

Regards,
Una

Heroditas

I think the OP might be asking if they can connect to the grid as a micro-generator and qualify for an import/export meter.

EI: Una

Ah yes, apologies - I suppose no harm in putting out a bit of info regarding smart meters. Thanks Heroditas.

Hi again Agri contractor,

The people to speak with regarding this query are our colleagues ESB Networks - here is their page of contact details, they do not have a presence on Boards.ie.

Regards,
Una

quentingargan

I think the issue here Una is whether or not someone doing this can qualify for the microgeneration feed in tariff. This is an interesting example of a technology that has a lot of potential, particularly if the generator is water cooled so you have a sort of CHP product.

I know the microgeneration scheme is available for wind, solar, and CHP, but the feed in tariff has been cut from an effective 19c to 9c in total, (which makes Ireland a pretty poor place to launch any new technology).

But are there clear guidelines on what constitutes CHP, or what equipment is acceptable? And would such a generator have to meet the unique Irish variants of EN50438?

And if this is just a generator with no CHP component, would it qualify?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

This is a question for the Distribution System Operator (ESB Networks) and nothing to do with any of the Supply companies.

quentingargan

Cristiano Wrong Wildflower wrote: »

This is a question for the Distribution System Operator (ESB Networks) and nothing to do with any of the Supply companies.

But isn't the microgeneration scheme administered by Electric Ireland? See here.

You have to be a customer of Electric Ireland to participate.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Read your own link:

Getting connectedSTEP 1
Connection to ESB Low Voltage Network. To access a step by step guide to the connection process and view ESB support package for Micro-generation - see ESB Networks Conditions for Connection.

STEP 2 (after you have registered with ESB Networks)
Registration with Electric Ireland. Once you fulfil ESB Networks Conditions for Connection for Micro-generators you can now register with Electric Ireland

The DSO calls the shots on this issue. Other electricity suppliers can offer a similar facility to Electric Ireland if they wish - of course they may not wish to do so.

quentingargan

Cristiano Wrong Wildflower wrote: »

Other electricity suppliers can offer a similar facility to Electric Ireland if they wish - of course they may not wish to do so.

No slur on Electric Ireland intended by the way. It is a huge disappointment that other providers didn't step up to the plate and offer a feed-in tariff. I guess this is something that would have to be mandated by CER and imposed as an obligation on all suppliers.

Thanks for the correction on the administration of the system. I have such an import-export meter myself, but get confused myself with the breakup of ESB...

Heroditas

quentingargan wrote: »

It is a huge disappointment that other providers didn't step up to the plate and offer a feed-in tariff. I guess this is something that would have to be mandated by CER and imposed as an obligation on all suppliers.

There's an admin cost and burden that other suppliers find unappealing, hence why they don't offer feed-in tariffs.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi Agri contractor,

ESB Networks decide what is acceptable for connection and subsequent installation of an import/export meter (specifically the requirement to meet the unique Irish variants of EN50438 associated with inverter type).

Export limits permissible are 6kW on Single Phase and 11kW on 3-Phase. ESB Networks will permit larger micro-generators (up to 50kVA) to be connected; however the customer will have to sign a Maximum Export Capacity agreement in line with current export limits. The account in question would also need to be on a residential tariff (commercial accounts are not included under the current scheme).

Further information on the Micro-generation Scheme can be found on our website here (linked to above).

If you have any further questions we'll be happy to help.

Thanks,

David.

Agri contractor

Thanks David,

Just trying to get my head around this. If you produce 50kw per hour, and sign a maximum Export agreement. What does this actually mean in rates per kw ?









ESB Networks decide what is acceptable for connection and subsequent installation of an import/export meter (specifically the requirement to meet the unique Irish variants of EN50438 associated with inverter type).

Export limits permissible are 6kW on Single Phase and 11kW on 3-Phase. ESB Networks will permit larger micro-generators (up to 50kVA) to be connected; however the customer will have to sign a Maximum Export Capacity agreement in line with current export limits. The account in question would also need to be on a residential tariff (commercial accounts are not included under the current scheme).

Further information on the Micro-generation Scheme can be found on our website here (linked to above).

If you have any further questions we'll be happy to help.

Thanks,

David.[/QUOTE]

EI: Una

Hi again all,

Here is some further information in relation to the current Domestic Micro-generation Payment Scheme which is on offer from Electric Ireland:

The scheme was first introduced in February 2009 and consisted of two payments. The first of these:
An Electric Ireland payment of 9 cent/kWh which is paid for all exported units from a domestic micro-generator.
To qualify for payment, the account must be on a domestic tariff with Electric Ireland and be an active account, i.e. if a customer joins the scheme and subsquently moves to another supplier, they automatically de-register from the scheme and no payment will be made for electricity exported after move-out date.
All suppliers have the option to offer this, however Electric Ireland is the only supplier to do so.
Expiry date for the Electric Ireland payment was originally set for 31st December 2010 and has since been extended twice over the past two years. It is now subject to yearly review, and currently has an expiry date of 31st December 2012.

The second payment:
An ESB Support payment of 10 cent/kWh was offered by ESB Networks, along with free installation of an import/export meter. The payment was for a period of five years and capped at the first 3000kWh per annum, then ending on the fifth anniversary of the contract start date.
ESB Networks offered the above incentives (payment and meter installation) to the first 4,000 installations, OR for a period of three years, whichever came first. The incentive ended on 29th February 2012. Customers are now required to pay for meter installation. Customers who were registered with ESB Networks prior to the above deadline and applied to Electric Ireland to join the payment scheme, will receive the 10 cent/kWh payment for the duration of the five-year contract.

There are no plans to replace the above payment at this point in time


General info:

ESB Networks decides what is acceptable for connection (see this link).

Customers must submit an NC6 form and a contractor's completion certificate before the import/export meter is installed.
For new customers after February 2012, ESB Networks will install a meter after the customer pays cost of installation.

shagal

what is the instalation cost of the import/export meter? 

Electric Ireland: David

Hi shagal,

shagal wrote:

what is the instalation cost of the import/export meter?

As part of the application procedure to have a micro-generator installed, ESB Networks would send you a quotation for the import/export meter. We recommend you get in touch with ESB Networks to discuss this further.

There are some FAQs regarding micro-generation on the ESB Networks' website here.

If you have any other questions we'll do our best to help.

Regards,
David

shagal

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

Hi shagal,

Originally posted by shagal
what is the instalation cost of the import/export meter?

As part of the application procedure to have a micro-generator installed, ESB Networks would send you a quotation for the import/export meter. We recommend you get in touch with ESB Networks to discuss this further.

There are some FAQs regarding micro-generation on the ESB Networks' website here.

If you have any other questions we'll do our best to help.

Regards,
David

ok thanks very much david

quentingargan

David - in the past there was a default fee of €350 for installing a meter for renewables, unless there was an exceptional site situation. Is that still the case? 

I have to say that compared to most countries in Europe, the situation in Ireland is not very user friendly. For a tiny country to have its own specific grid code (EN50438 with Irish national variations requiring specific certification) puts a huge burden on those wanting to export to the grid. That standard is not generally met by the grid itself, so inverters regularly trip out because of over-voltage or under-voltage on the local grid, so you are already putting a burden on microgenerators that you don't put on yourselves. 

This is compounded by an export tariff of just 9c. I would have thought that considering the tiny number of connections that are happening, it wouldn't bankrupt Electric Ireland to make that €350 a fixed fee regardless of the situation. 

Electric Ireland: David

Hi quentingargan,

Thanks for your message.

quentingargan wrote:

David - in the past there was a default fee of €350 for installing a meter for renewables, unless there was an exceptional site situation. Is that still the case?

I'm afraid I'd have to direct you to ESB Networks for that one quentingargan; in Electric Ireland, we are in charge of applying the aforementioned export payment (as a supplier). ESB Networks operate separately to all electricity suppliers, and are the people to contact for any meter/installation-related questions.

I can tell you that Electric Ireland have extended the micro-generation export payment of 9 cent/kWh by a further year to 31st December 2014, which is the fourth successive year that the expiry date has been extended. Previously ESB Networks offered a micro-generation support package comprising of free installation of the import/export meter and a support payment of 10 cent/kWh, but this is no longer the case. However, existing customers who successfully applied to the original scheme will continue to receive support until the fifth anniversary of their contract start date. 

We do appreciate any feedback, and if you have any other questions we'll be happy to help.

Regards,
David

xx-charlie-xx

quentingargan wrote: »

David - in the past there was a default fee of €350 for installing a meter for renewables, unless there was an exceptional site situation. Is that still the case? 

I have to say that compared to most countries in Europe, the situation in Ireland is not very user friendly. For a tiny country to have its own specific grid code (EN50438 with Irish national variations requiring specific certification) puts a huge burden on those wanting to export to the grid. That standard is not generally met by the grid itself, so inverters regularly trip out because of over-voltage or under-voltage on the local grid, so you are already putting a burden on microgenerators that you don't put on yourselves. 

This is compounded by an export tariff of just 9c. I would have thought that considering the tiny number of connections that are happening, it wouldn't bankrupt Electric Ireland to make that €350 a fixed fee regardless of the situation. 

Hi quentingargan,

I'm looking into getting a wind turbine for a commercial site, not domestic, from your post above it would seem like I should try and set it up so that its not connected to the grid? Are you saying that the grid can trip my inverter and potentially turn off the wind turbine?

As its a commercial site and I'm looking at a small turbine there should only be a few instances where the load required by the building is less than the energy produced by the turbine, and a requirement for the excess electricity to leak back to the grid.

EI: Una

Hi xx-charlie-xx,

The Microgeneration scheme is generally not available for commercial customers. If you private message me your Electric Ireland account number and name/address, I will check for you with the Microgeneration team.

Kind regards,
Una

quentingargan

xx-charlie-xx wrote: »

Hi quentingargan,

I'm looking into getting a wind turbine for a commercial site, not domestic, from your post above it would seem like I should try and set it up so that its not connected to the grid? Are you saying that the grid can trip my inverter and potentially turn off the wind turbine?

As its a commercial site and I'm looking at a small turbine there should only be a few instances where the load required by the building is less than the energy produced by the turbine, and a requirement for the excess electricity to leak back to the grid.

Hi xxCharliexx - I wouldn't try running off-grid. The cost of cycling batteries is too high. If you have a baseload requirement most of the time which is greater than the turbine output, you won't be losing too much revenue by exporting to the grid. 

As has been pointed out, the rather low 9c export tariff available to domestic houses is not available to commercial customers, so instead of getting paid half-nothing for your exports, you'll be getting paid nothing. But that may not matter in your case. The original reason given for this at the launch of the microgeneration scheme was some issue related to VAT. 

For that reason, on commercial sites, I would usually recommend PV rather than wind. The cost per KwHr produced is generally lower, the systems are more reliable, and the electricity is usually produced at a time when your demand is highest (i.e. not at night). Though I don't know the nature of your business. 

But either way, I would connect to the grid and spill the surplus to the grid rather than cycle batteries. There are various products out there that can reduce your exports by switching on loads should the meter start exporting.