Galway: household charge non-payment lead to reduction in services

Sleepy

Congratulations, you've managed to miss every post made that's explained to you why urban dwellers can be provided with such services and rural dwellers can't.

Before bitching and moaning about what urban dwellers get provided with, just try to imagine for a minute: what level of services would you be receiving if urban dwellers weren't subsidising rural services?

John_Rambo

Look, I could have built in a rural area with no facilities. I didn't, I bought a second hand house in a well serviced area with schools, trains, buses, parks, a beach etc... there were existing services there, electricity, sewerage, water etc...

If you decided to build in a badly serviced area you have to deal with it, people who work the land have done it for years. You're in the country now.

It's the same all over the world, the further you are away from infrastructure, the more you pay unless you have the gumption to go self sufficient.

The urban areas are making the money, they are paying their own way and already pouring money in to rural areas, so you have some cheek logging on to moan about cities like Galway, Kilkenny, Waterford and Dublin spending some of the money they earn on their own infrastructure.

If you failed to see a guaranteed rise in services, fuel etc... that's your fault, you cant expect everyone else to cover your bills.

galway2007

John_Rambo wrote: »

Look, I could have built in a rural area with no facilities. I didn't, I bought a second hand house in a well serviced area with schools, trains, buses, parks, a beach etc... there were existing services there, electricity, sewerage, water etc...

If you decided to build in a badly serviced area you have to deal with it, people who work the land have done it for years. You're in the country now.

It's the same all over the world, the further you are away from infrastructure, the more you pay unless you have the gumption to go self sufficient.

The urban areas are making the money, they are paying their own way and already pouring money in to rural areas, so you have some cheek logging on to moan about cities like Galway, Kilkenny, Waterford and Dublin spending some of the money they earn on their own infrastructure.

If you failed to see a guaranteed rise in services, fuel etc... that's your fault, you cant expect everyone else to cover your bills.

I think you might have seen that the only sector booming in Ireland is the food sector so rural Ireland is paying it way.Milk does not come from a bottle.

I am not giving out about the services what Iam saying is we provide our own water, sewerage, and even the play park

But Galway county council waste so much money

1) They never pick up road sign after doingroad works

2) After doing a road a few weeks later theydig it up to put another cable or something down

3) They took out roundabout and put inlight's that made the traffic worse

Cut out the waste first before you startasking working people to give more tax when they can’t afford to pay the bills

creedp

John_Rambo wrote: »

Look, I could have built in a rural area with no facilities. I didn't, I bought a second hand house in a well serviced area with schools, trains, buses, parks, a beach etc... there were existing services there, electricity, sewerage, water etc...

If you decided to build in a badly serviced area you have to deal with it, people who work the land have done it for years. You're in the country now.

If you failed to see a guaranteed rise in services, fuel etc... that's your fault, you cant expect everyone else to cover your bills.

That's fine people in rural areas have no difficulty paying for services and in some cases they have no choice as they have to source them privately. Water, sewerage, bins, higher ESB rates, etc all have to be paid for. A water source has to be provided (by digging private well) and maintained using pumps etc all which have ongoing maintanance costs - electricity, repairs, etc. Its is therefore understandable that it costs more per unit of service in rural areas because of the economies of scale involved but again social solidarity would suggest that the sharing of the cost burden for essential services (electricity) is appropriate. However, I think if this argument holds true for rural dwellers then urban dwellers should be paying a reasonable charge for public services such as water and sewage .. it would abviously be a lower cost per unit than applies in rural areas but shouldn't be free! The polluter pays principle is used to justify a water charge, so it should also be used to justify a sewage charge!!

John_Rambo

creedp wrote: »

it would abviously be a lower cost per unit than applies in rural areas but shouldn't be free!

It isn't! The builders pass on the cost to the buyer.

galway2007 wrote: »

I think you might have seen that the only sector booming in Ireland is the food sector so rural Ireland is paying it way.Milk does not come from a bottle.

You're kidding me, the food sector is the only one bringing the cash in? What about the financial services, advertising, pharmacy etc... all cash cows. Rural Ireland is not paying it's way. The cities are paying it's way.

What's with the childish milk bottle thing? Are you that naive that you think city people believe this? Is it some sort of dig at me claiming I don't know anything about farms or something?

galway2007 wrote: »

we provide our own water, sewerage, and even the play park

And? Did you expect the tax payer to supply you with water, a sewerage system and a play park because you built a house in an isolated area ALONG with the heavily subsidised services you already avail of?

I agree with you regarding the County councils, our city council is improving, but there seems to be a prevailing laziness about them, badgering, emails and constant phone calls sometimes work, complaining to the council (not here) sometimes works.

galway2007

John_Rambo wrote: »

It isn't! The builders pass on the cost to the buyer.



You're kidding me, the food sector is the only one bringing the cash in? What about the financial services, advertising, pharmacy etc... all cash cows. Rural Ireland is not paying it's way. The cities are paying it's way.

What's with the childish milk bottle thing? Are you that naive that you think city people believe this? Is it some sort of dig at me claiming I don't know anything about farms or something?



And? Did you expect the tax payer to supply you with water, a sewerage system and a play park because you built a house in an isolated area ALONG with the heavily subsidised services you already avail of?

I agree with you regarding the County councils, our city council is improving, but there seems to be a prevailing laziness about them, badgering, emails and constant phone calls sometimes work, complaining to the council (not here) sometimes works.

Do city people even know where there s**t go after they flush it?
Or the cost of treating it???

John_Rambo

galway2007 wrote: »

Do city people even know where there s**t go after they flush it?
Or the cost of treating it???

Yes, mine ends up in a processing plant in Ringsend. The cost was huge, but the citizens taxes paid for it.

Chips Lovell

galway2007 wrote: »

Do city people even know where there s**t go after they flush it?
Or the cost of treating it???

I expect they do know where it goes. Although as for costs, I doubt many would have an accurate cost per poo estimate. But what does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

fishy fishy

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Fire services? Do people in Galway not receive an invoice from the Fire Service for call out charges as is procedure in other counties?

400 Euro per hour (or part thereof)

antoobrien

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I expect they do know where it goes. Although as for costs, I doubt many would have an accurate cost per poo estimate. But what does this have to do with the discussion at hand?

They do in Galway, Mutton Island was in the news for years because a few ecomentalists wanted to stop it (sounds familiar, doesn't it).

However in Dublin a good many people do not know where the sewage treatment works is. They only care that their waste leaves the premises they are using (home/work/other).

I got weeks of laughter out of a few dubs who swear blind that they thought there was a nationwide sewage system. The best one had to be the explanations for how a house that isn't on a mains (i.e. has a well) is part of this all powerful sewer system.

John_Rambo

antoobrien wrote: »

However in Dublin a good many people do not know where the sewage treatment works is. They only care that their waste leaves the premises they are using (home/work/other)

I don't really see why they HAVE to know where it goes to be honest.

Weeks of laughter? :-)

creedp

John_Rambo wrote: »

It isn't! The builders pass on the cost to the buyer.

What the builder factored in the future cost to the Council of treating urban dwellers sewage into the price of the house? Them are some sophisticated builders!!

n97 mini

galway2007 wrote: »

I think you might have seen that the only sector booming in Ireland is the food sector so rural Ireland is paying it way.Milk does not come from a bottle.

Irish farmers receive approx €2bn in subsidies, both from central govt and the EU, per annum. Strip those subsidies out and a lot of Irish farming is not sustainable.

John_Rambo

creedp wrote: »

What the builder factored in the future cost to the Council of treating urban dwellers sewage into the price of the house? Them are some sophisticated builders!!

I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or are pretending to misunderstand me! The builder passes the cost of all the various connection fees to the buyer. The future cost is well covered by the cities citizens high taxes.

View

galway2007 wrote: »

3) They took out roundabout and put inlight's that made the traffic worse

Amm, where exactly was this roundabout (or roundabouts)?

Rural idylls usually tend to be light on roundabouts and traffic lights, yet you seem to have both.

You have spent a good chunks of your posts claiming your county doesn't provide you with any services yet road related works is unquestionably a service...

Galwayguy35

View wrote: »

Amm, where exactly was this roundabout (or roundabouts)?

Rural idylls usually tend to be light on roundabouts and traffic lights, yet you seem to have both.

You have spent a good chunks of your posts claiming your county doesn't provide you with any services yet road related works is unquestionably a service...

Those roundabouts are in the city.

View

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Those roundabouts are in the city.

Well, if they are in the City, then they are not examples of "waste by Galway County Council" as you claimed in your previous post.

It is basically up to each county (or county borough in the case of the cities) to decide what is best for its future growth not non-residents of the county or county borough.

Local roads are a matter for locals not "visitors" to the area. National Primary or Secondary roads are a different matter as the relelevant LA should be following national standards. Regional roads are presumably an "inter-county" matter subject to the relevant standards, if any, that exist.

As it is:
A) the city, as the diagram showed, is one of the few local authority areas that is a net contributor to the state - as such, it is subsidizing the net recipient local authority areas, so complaining about how it spends it's monies is a bit rich,
the Household Charge, you are being asked to pay, will not go towards paying for those road works, as you don't live there - so your HHC monies will not be "wasted" by the city,
C) your non-payment will however effect the delivery of services in your county which means all the things you have complained about in your locality will get worse.

galway2007

poo meters must be put on all city toilets now Hogan

Galwayguy35

View wrote: »

Well, if they are in the City, then they are not examples of "waste by Galway County Council" as you claimed in your previous post.

It is basically up to each county (or county borough in the case of the cities) to decide what is best for its future growth not non-residents of the county or county borough.

Local roads are a matter for locals not "visitors" to the area. National Primary or Secondary roads are a different matter as the relelevant LA should be following national standards. Regional roads are presumably an "inter-county" matter subject to the relevant standards, if any, that exist.

As it is:
A) the city, as the diagram showed, is one of the few local authority areas that is a net contributor to the state - as such, it is subsidizing the net recipient local authority areas, so complaining about how it spends it's monies is a bit rich,
the Household Charge, you are being asked to pay, will not go towards paying for those road works, as you don't live there - so your HHC monies will not be "wasted" by the city,
C) your non-payment will however effect the delivery of services in your county which means all the things you have complained about in your locality will get worse.

You might take that back because I didn't claim anything "in my previous post" as it was not me you were debating with. Ok?

unit 1

galway2007 wrote: »

Do city people even know where there s**t go after they flush it?
Or the cost of treating it???

And do rural folk know where it goes when they visit towns and cities, or do they keep it in till they go home, without using any footpaths of course.

View

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You might take that back because I didn't claim anything "in my previous post" as it was not me you were debating with. Ok?

My apologies - I confused the relatively similar user names.

K-9

View wrote: »

My apologies - I confused the relatively similar user names.

On that note galway2007 is banned from the forum so don't be expecting a reply.

Icepick

A Labour Court ruling has recommended that full-time staff at Galway city and county councils have their weekly working hours increased to a minimum of 34.

Galway City Council currently has a working week of 33 hours while the county council has the lowest working week of all 16 local authorities impaced at 32 point 55 hours.

They actually went to court to stop the increase to 34 hours a week. Cloud cuckoo land indeed.

Good loser

Suppose that includes the goody goodies - the 'frontline staff'.

tayto lover

Good loser wrote: »

Suppose that includes the goody goodies - the 'frontline staff'.

Would they not let you join?

Lumbo

Good loser wrote: »

Suppose that includes the goody goodies - the 'frontline staff'.

No, the ruling of the Labour Court was in relation to Administration staff only. Frontline staff (General Services staff) are usually contracted to work a 39 hour week, I'm open to correction on this as local arangements can mean that some Local Authorities have different terms & conditions. Management are attempting to standardise hours & leave and the recent ruling of the Labour Court disagrees with the Union's assumption that these issues were protected under the Public Service Agreement.

HellFireClub

There is a page doing the rounds on Facebook tonight that is claiming that a letter is being circulated by County Councils, to parents of children who have applied for a 3rd level college grant, requiring them to provide details of them having paid the Household Charge, before the grant application can be processed any further. Some are saying it's a fake, some are claiming that the letter is genuine and is being circulated. If it is genuine, I reckon the shít is going to hit the fan tomorrow...

https://www.facebook.com/RevolutionIreland




Note: I am NOT vouching for the authenticity of this letter, just posting what appears to be a story...

dvpower

HellFireClub wrote: »

There is a page doing the rounds on Facebook tonight that is claiming that a letter is being circulated by County Councils, to parents of children who have applied for a 3rd level college grant, requiring them to provide details of them having paid the Household Charge, before the grant application can be processed any further. Some are saying it's a fake, some are claiming that the letter is genuine and is being circulated. If it is genuine, I reckon the shít is going to hit the fan tomorrow...

https://www.facebook.com/RevolutionIreland


Note: I am NOT vouching for the authenticity of this letter, just posting what appears to be a story...

The anti HHC people are shooting themselves in the foot by publicising this (almost certain) hoax.
Its just the kind of thing that would encourage waverers to pay up.

HellFireClub

dvpower wrote: »

The anti HHC people are shooting themselves in the foot by publicising this (almost certain) hoax.
Its just the kind of thing that would encourage waverers to pay up.

IF it's a hoax it's pathethic, but the way things are heading in this country, you no longer can tell what's real and what's makey up...

dvpower

HellFireClub wrote: »

IF it's a hoax it's pathethic, but the way things are heading in this country, you no longer can tell what's real and what's makey up...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0918/clare-students-household.html

Bizarrely it appears that it is a legit letter.
It certainly is ramping up the campaign.

The CoCo bear the cost of processing the grant application - that seems to be their justification for asking for the information.

crusher000

The decision to cut back on the services due to the short fall in payment of the HHC is a joke. Heard from a reliable source that the rate of payment is actually higher than what is being reported. There is a back log in the processing of the payments. They paid their HHC in March and still wasn't taken from their account by August. They paid by credit card and eventually rang the relelvant department to find out why they weren't charged. Explained back log of over 5000 in processing the payment. The minister is making a call on cuts on the basis of processed payments and not actual payments. This again is another smoke screen to justify cutting services despite they being paid for by the majority. FG/Labour the wolves in lamb clothing. Wake up Galway and fight the cuts.

JustAThought

I was shocked yesterday to read that 0'Reilly, considered an income of e36,000 to be a high level salary; and is stopping pensioners medical cards if their single income is at or above this amount.

It's quite disgusting that the Govt & Councils can shamelessly cut services to the old & disabled , while continuing with an ever bewildering lifetime guarantee of index linked perks & persons.

I read theirher day if " sorry you lost your job" handouts up to 50k "due" to some councillors whose public voted them out ofoffice cos they were so useless. Not to mention the " forever" pensions that will be linked to future pay rises any other staff may ever get; and which mostly apart from a pitiful token amount they do have have to pay for or support.

The shameless wastes , sense of job entitlement & union-hack attitudes is disgraceful. No private company could ever survive with these attitudes & " service". The pity is, for the rest of our lives unless people protest we will continue to be stuck with the waste & inefficiencies that we have to currently endure.

The full time staff are the ones that are screwing the excecher ; did no-one else spit the report that the bill for these " for lifers " pensions is two times rhe national debt? Incomprehensible.

What do you think this charge is actually going to support; it's salaries, " entitlements", jobs for life, 09;30-4 working days, regular sick days no questions asked on full pay, race days off, index linked rises, & no accountability jobs for life.

And running yet another campaign to get people to pay from boards.ie won't change that, party hacks.

FFS

HellFireClub

Well, it's NOT a hoax as per RTE this morning...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0918/clare-students-household.html

It said that processing higher education grants is done at a cost to the council and it was its policy to ensure that benefactors of such services pay the Household Charge as required by law.
The council said any delay in processing grant payments is regretted.
It added that early payment of the charge would ensure no unnecessary delay in the payment of the grants.
A council spokesperson was not able to say if non-payment of the Household Charge would actually result in grant applications not being processed or being refused.
Commenting on the council's actions, Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn said it was was reasonable to ask those applying for additional tax payers' money whether they were compliant with a legally-due tax.
Mr Quinn also said the council made the move on its own initiative and the department was not involved, however he said he expects other councils will follow suit in the future.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Pamela Rochford, spokesperson for the Clare branch of the Campaign Against Household and Water Taxes, accused the council of using scare tactics.

crusher000

What next ? Refused care at A&E because you haven't paid HCC. After all you travelled on the road provided by your Co. Council and if you don't pay up you haven't contributed to it's non maintenance. Still won't pay.

Sleepy

Won't pay your taxes? Fine.

Homeschool your kids, don't call the fire brigade if your house goes up in flames, don't ring the Gardaí if your house is broken into, don't expect the nurses and doctors to mend little Jimmy's arm when he falls off his bike, don't use public roads, don't try claiming any form of welfare.

Actually, whilst I'm clearly being facetious to make a point, perhaps we should have some form of this in place: access to public services only provided if your PPS card scans to prove you're fully tax compliant...

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote: »

Homeschool your kids, don't call the fire brigade if your house goes up in flames, don't ring the Gardaí if your house is broken into, don't expect the nurses and doctors to mend little Jimmy's arm when he falls off his bike, don't use public roads, don't try claiming any form of welfare.

Well, in fairness the educational system is in near crisis anyway from what I gather, to the point that often significant 'contributions' are still required even if in theory the education is 'free'. The Gardai have long been a bit of a joke - the only reason anyone calls them if there's a robbery is for insurance reasons. I wouldn't use an Irish hospital if, or more likely because, my life depended on it - how much medical tourism has been originating from Ireland in recent years? And Roads have long been a disaster and it was only because of EU money that they got any better - until of course they start falling apart again because the EU won't be maintaining them.

If previously introduced taxes are anything to go by, they'll wait until people get used to paying the tax and they'll reduce services anyway after a few years.

I suggest you live in Germany, France, Austria or even Italy for a while. You actually get something for your taxes there. Certainly there are lots of problems and complaints, but they're nothing compared to the dysfunctional nature of Irish state or local services - even during the boom times, because it was just easier for people to go private then and ignore the problem.

It's a pity because it represents a breakdown of the social or Hobbesian contract, whereby the citizen sacrifices freedoms (including to their earnings) in return for services and protection from the government. When this breaks down, so does civic duty and things such as whole-scale tax evasion, welfare fraud and anti-social behaviour become more acceptable.

Welcome back to the eighties.

Galwayguy35

I paid the HHC and I'll cough up for the PT grudgingly as well but I fear that like most rural dwellers we won't notice any improvment in the level of "services" we will get in return for our payment of this tax.

crusher000

Problem is as always with Government departments is if it's not working throw more money at it . Who is looking at improving effecencies ? Who is planning for a decrease in next years budget ? I work in the private sector and the company I work for are on Continuos Improvement and working on effeciences year in and year out. As after all it's only smart business to lower your working costs. Come on people I'm no genious and I can see it but our state departments can't seem to get it.

Sleepy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I paid the HHC and I'll cough up for the PT grudgingly as well but I fear that like most rural dwellers we won't notice any improvment in the level of "services" we will get in return for our payment of this tax.

No-one will see any improvement to the services they receive for the next few years. At the very, very best, service levels will hold at their current levels unless the Croke Park deal is thrown out, welfare is slashed or tax-takes is massively increased (though I'd argue the latter would do more harm than good some increases are going to be necessary).

ardmacha

I paid the HHC and I'll cough up for the PT grudgingly as well but I fear that like most rural dwellers we won't notice any improvment in the level of "services" we will get in return for our payment of this tax.

He we go again. This tax is being used to pay for present services which are currently being paid for by borrowing, the question of increased does not arise.

not yet

ardmacha wrote: »

He we go again. This tax is being used to pay for present services which are currently being paid for by borrowing, the question of increased does not arise.

Her we go where again....?, the guy was asking a valid question. No need for the smart arsed reply.

I personally think if we are to be asked to pay a PT we deserve to know how the money is being spent.

mikom

not yet wrote: »

Her we go where again....?, the guy was asking a valid question. No need for the smart arsed reply.

I personally think if we are to be asked to pay a PT we deserve to know how the money is being spent.

Galway city
City manager (Joe O’Neill, acting): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance and ICT: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
2 management accountants: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €992,615
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html

Cheap at twice the price.........
.
.

not yet

mikom wrote: »

Cheap at twice the price.........
.
.

Fcuking joke, The county manager in Sligo, sligo ffs earns more then the spanish premier. If thats where my PT is going they can fuok off.

mikom

not yet wrote: »

Fcuking joke, The county manager in Sligo, sligo ffs earns more then the spanish premier. If thats where my PT is going they can fuok off.

Ah, come on, the Galway City manager is only on a little over 2500 a week.
Cough up that household charge or your child will not get educated.
Otherwise the City managers office will be taking on a lot of cleaning interns.........

Geuze

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I paid the HHC and I'll cough up for the PT grudgingly as well but I fear that like most rural dwellers we won't notice any improvment in the level of "services" we will get in return for our payment of this tax.

I'll say it again:

Nobody has ever said there'll be any improvement in LA services.

There won't be.

The central Govt will pay less in grants to the LA, and we will make it up with the HHC/PT payments.

Summary

No extra LA income.
So no extra LA services.
Less central Govt spending.
Lower fiscal deficit.

But, more transparency and accountability from the LA, as we now pay more directly for services, rather than via the central Govt.

Galwayguy35

Geuze wrote: »

I'll say it again:

Nobody has ever said there'll be any improvement in LA services.

There won't be.

The central Govt will pay less in grants to the LA, and we will make it up with the HHC/PT payments.

Summary

No extra LA income.
So no extra LA services.
Less central Govt spending.
Lower fiscal deficit.

But, more transparency and accountability from the LA, as we now pay more directly for services, rather than via the central Govt.

Yeah well there should be an improvment seeing as they want us to pay for it.
Why can't it be like in the UK and elsewhere where people get alot more services for the the money they pay.
I still will have to pay for my rubbish to be collected, the pothole situation around here is a disgrace and the hedges by the side of the roads in rural areas never seem to be done.

Sleepy

Why do you have to pay this charge? Because we live in a democracy.

Because morons in this country voted FF into government for decades whilst they destroyed the tax-base, cheered on a property bubble and generally acted like prohibition-era gangsters.

Because those elected representatives socialised private losses, took care of their friends instead of the country and agreed a deal with the PS unions in Croke Park that hamstrung any government succeeding them.

Because, when given the chance to vote in a new government, a large number of our voters were stupid enough to give their votes to the "money grows on trees" ULA/Sinn Fein candidates, a larger number (most likely PS workers simply looking to protect their status quo) voted for Labour and even worse some still seemed to think Fianna Fail were still worth a vote.

I'm not a member of Fine Gael, socially they're far too right wing for me and economically they're too left but they're the best option we have for sorting out our economy until a more libertarian party appears and, I'm sorry to say, that in this climate, for me at least, the economy takes precedence over many of the things I'd disagree with the conservative elements of the party on such as secularisation, equality, legislation for the X case, social services, etc. Without an economy to fund any of it, there's no point.

And facts remain: there can be no improvement until the deficit is closed. You're not being asked to pay for an improvement. You're being asked to pay for the government and services you already receive.

avalon68

mikom wrote: »

Cheap at twice the price.........
.
.

In all honesty, 130000 isn't a huge amount. Yes it's good money ( and a lot more than I earn!), but considering the average industrial wage is what...35000? It really isn't a huge multiple of that for a city manager and a huge chunk of that goes back in tax. More than the Spanish premier? Maybe, but what's the average wage in Spain? I'm sure it's a whole lot less than in Ireland.

Galwayguy35

avalon68 wrote: »

In all honesty, 130000 isn't a huge amount. Yes it's good money ( and a lot more than I earn!), but considering the average industrial wage is what...35000? It really isn't a huge multiple of that for a city manager and a huge chunk of that goes back in tax. More than the Spanish premier? Maybe, but what's the average wage in Spain? I'm sure it's a whole lot less than in Ireland.

You can take it from me that the average industrial wage is way below 35,000

avalon68

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You can take it from me that the average industrial wage is way below 35,000

Well the statistics say otherwise - http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/average-industrial-wage-in-ireland-576846-Aug2012/

First article that came up when I googled was that one