Training a terrier

Zoria

Hi everyone I was hoping I might be able to get some tips from people here. I got a long haired terrier a few months back, he is three years old. He is a very friendly lovable dog, but he wants to have a go at every other dog he comes across, well except the ladies So there is that issue, plus when I let him off the lead he will come back to me no problem, but if there is another dog about he is straight in there. I'm afraid he will hurt another dog at this stage, but I feel mean keeping him on the lead when he enjoys running through the long grass so much

Is there a way at his age that I can get him to relax around them? Any advice would be very much appreciated

barbiegirl

We have a terrier too. For us the first thing was to get his attention, so we found pet corrector spray, which is basically condenced air, accomplished this. Basically you spray it, a short sharp bout, close to his ear but not pointed towards him. This should get his attention, at the same time as the spray, say something like be good, and when you have his attention treat him. Keep doing this, then eventually you can just say, be good and he'll turn towards you expecting the treat.
Then it's about working with someone who will help. Have the two dogs meet recurrently and get them used to one another. So that they become friends. Take every opportunity you can get to socialise him. Follow the same process, so that eventually he sees meeting and saying hello to new dogs as something good, cause treats come with it.
Also is he neutered, this can also help.
He currently sees all male dogs as threats, you need to retrain him to see them as a positive thing.

Zoria

barbiegirl wrote: »

We have a terrier too. For us the first thing was to get his attention, so we found pet corrector spray, which is basically condenced air, accomplished this. Basically you spray it, a short sharp bout, close to his ear but not pointed towards him. This should get his attention, at the same time as the spray, say something like be good, and when you have his attention treat him. Keep doing this, then eventually you can just say, be good and he'll turn towards you expecting the treat.
Then it's about working with someone who will help. Have the two dogs meet recurrently and get them used to one another. So that they become friends. Take every opportunity you can get to socialise him. Follow the same process, so that eventually he sees meeting and saying hello to new dogs as something good, cause treats come with it.
Also is he neutered, this can also help.
He currently sees all male dogs as threats, you need to retrain him to see them as a positive thing.

Thanks for replying I figured it might be a territorial thing or something. I don't think he is neutered, so that would make a difference for him? Where can I get this spray you were talking about? Appreciate the help, thanks

barbiegirl

We got the pet corrector spray in the pet shop in Carrickmines, it's a Petstop I think. I'm sure you could get it online. Neutering can make a difference as it reduces testosterone, and could (not guaranteed) help.
But really it is probably a mixture of fear and territorialism. You need to make him feel that it is ok, you are in charge and won't lead him into dangerous situations, and that new doggies are fun.
Our guy still, especially for jumpy big dogs, lets them know not to be too boisterous around him, but he is then happy to play and gets on great with most (not all) dogs. HE still tries to take on my sisters St Bernard who weighs ten times his size :rolleyes:
As with any dog you always have to keep an eye, he's your responsibility to make sure he hurts no other dog and that he doesn't get hurt.
A good behaviourist could be the best €100 you'll ever spend as they will observe what is happening and give a real solution. Make sure it's one who has nothing to do with dominance theory, but is all about positive re-enforcement. We found Citizen Canine to be brilliant.

Zoria

Thats great, thanks for the tips Barbie

DBB

barbiegirl wrote: »

We got the pet corrector spray in the pet shop in Carrickmines, it's a Petstop I think. I'm sure you could get it online. Neutering can make a difference as it reduces testosterone, and could (not guaranteed) help.
But really it is probably a mixture of fear and territorialism. You need to make him feel that it is ok, you are in charge and won't lead him into dangerous situations, and that new doggies are fun.
Our guy still, especially for jumpy big dogs, lets them know not to be too boisterous around him, but he is then happy to play and gets on great with most (not all) dogs. HE still tries to take on my sisters St Bernard who weighs ten times his size :rolleyes:
As with any dog you always have to keep an eye, he's your responsibility to make sure he hurts no other dog and that he doesn't get hurt.
A good behaviourist could be the best €100 you'll ever spend as they will observe what is happening and give a real solution. Make sure it's one who has nothing to do with dominance theory, but is all about positive re-enforcement. We found Citizen Canine to be brilliant.

How do you reconcile advising that it's "all about positive reinforcement", yet you're also advising use of pet corrector spray, the latter being an aversive, utilising both positive punishment and negative reinforcement to achieve its goals?

OP, I would be very, very slow to use any such spray. Terriers are exceptionally reactive to sudden noise or movement, and if your dog is snarking off at other males, and you place your hand near his ear to set off a blast of air, there is a good chance it will have completely the wrong effect on your dog's behaviour twoards other dogs, and that he may redirect his aggression onto your hand.

There is simply no need to use pet corrector spray to act as a distraction, because it acts as an aversive, and using aversives to treat emotional problems is a very risky thing to do, for a number of different reasons. It is more important to find a distance at which your dog doesn't react too badly to other dogs, and use a squeaky toy or ball to keep him focussed on you, coupled with food treats. With time, this distance can be closed gradually.

Whilst you're working on him, can I please beg you not to let him off lead around other dogs? It is utterly unfair for owners of dogs which are known to be aggressive to allow their dog to practise his tendencies on innocent bystanders. Remember, there's a reasonable chance your dog's behaviour developed from bad experience(s) with another dog... don't have your dog be the one to cause this same problem for another dog and owner! If you don't trust him with other dogs, do not let him off lead until you do.

I would also second the recommendation for Citizen Canine Ireland, who will not use pet corrector sprays or any other aversives in the training process. Getting good professional help in can make all the difference in these cases.

barbiegirl

DB I think like the squeeky ball it comes down to how you use the spray. For me it is only about getting attention because an angry terrier, or at least ours ignored clickers, squeekies, treats, balls, etc the spra was a very unusual sound not directed at him but loud and sudden to get attention that resulted in treat. He was not nor is he now scared of the spray.
You can use something positive like a ball and use it negatively by throwing it at a dog, just like you can use something that could be negative like condensed air and use it positively.

DBB

barbiegirl wrote: »

DB I think like the squeeky ball it comes down to how you use the spray. For me it is only about getting attention because an angry terrier, or at least ours ignored clickers, squeekies, treats, balls, etc the spra was a very unusual sound not directed at him but loud and sudden to get attention that resulted in treat. He was not nor is he now scared of the spray.
You can use something positive like a ball and use it negatively by throwing it at a dog, just like you can use something that could be negative like condensed air and use it positively.

Spraying condensed air beside a dog's ear is not, cannot be positive. It is an aversive. The fact that you eventually taught him that he'll get treats for taking his attention off other dogs is of course positive, but does not change the fact that the initial use of the spray was aversive, working on the dog's startle response. It's not much different to using a choke chain .. to get them to work, an initial aversive (leash jerk and startle response to sound of leash jerk) has to be used. You got away with it, but not every owner does. The aversion of the noise from them can devastate some dogs, or cause redirected aggression towards the spray, and the hand that's holding it. Not worth the risks when there are more effective and gentle ways of teaching a dog not to react to other dogs.
If I may say, trying to justify using corrective spray by saying that a ball can be used negatively by throwing it at the dog is just facetious.
The fact that your dog could not be distracted by anything else means that he was being allowed come too close to other dogs for his own comfort. There is always a distance at which a dog can be worked around things he's reactive to... That's what the gentle process of systematic desensitization is all about. No need for corrective sprays at all.

barbiegirl

Too close was the other side of the road. I was not being facitious, we associated the noise with a command and high value treat, then took the noise away and the worked with command and treat which he then associated with meeting dogs, now it's meet dogs get treat. Happy dog. Had he reacted badly to the noise we would have stopped but the fact is he didn't.
To illustrate good and bad association take a hurley. Our dogs love to see the hurley it means we're going to the green to puck about balls and play. Whereas a dog who has been hit with a hurley will cower on seeing one. There was never fear or threat used in any training with our dogs.

Zoria

Okay, so from reading back there are other things I can try other than this spray. I'm not sure whether a squeaky toy or treats will work, though I will try these first. He just seems so focused on the other dogs, and doesn't seem to hear me at all.

@ DBB, I do not let him off the leash around other dogs. I make sure that the area I'm letting him loose in are dog free first. However, if while he is running about another owner decides to enter the field or wherever we are, it's then a race to get him back onto the leash before he clocks the other dog. It is very frustrating, because it's nice to see him stretch his legs. Other peoples dogs and his own safety are my biggest priority here though. When considering this spray thing, I did think that theres a chance he may bite me as a spur of the moment reaction. He'd never ever bite intentionally, but I'm not so sure about this situation.

DBB

Hi Zoria,
It's really important, rather than using aversive which can go horribly wrong, to take a mental step back, as well as a physical one. Bring your dog out to a big space and see what distance your dog can see other dogs, but not get so upset that he can't focus on you or toys, or take food from you. If he can't take food, he's gone over threshold, emotionally speaking.
So, find this distance, it could be 50 yards, it might be 300+! It depends on the dog.
Once you've found out this distance, make sure that your dog can't get closer than this to other dogs, for now. Keep working on his focussing skills, but gradually decrease the distance over days and weeks. You'll know if you've gone too far because your dog will lose focus again.
It can be really helpful to go and buy a stuffed toy dog to act as a training stooge... You'd be amazed at how dogs can be "fooled" into thinking these are real, as long as he never gets to meet the toy!
But toys are unreactive and you can put them wherever you want them to be. There are some particularly life like, standy-uppy black labs on amazon!
Finally, get a good harness, and a long, long tracking lead or lunge line, and let him run away to his heart's content. Just make sure the end of the long line is always within your grasp, so you can quickly get him under control when a dog appears, even though your own fella is a distance away from you.
I hope this makes sense! But you could benefit greatly from one-to-one help with a behaviourist, as these cases are rarely entirely straightforward.
Good luck with him!

Zoria

Thanks DBB I think, just judging by his reactions I may have a job and a half on my hands. Even when I keep him on a very short lead and have him by my side, other dog owners allow their dog to roam freely, and when they do come over to him he totally loses the plot. I sometimes wish the other dog owners would call on their dog because I obviously don't look in control of the situation, as I'm struggling to keep them apart. The other day I had him right by my side, on the leash. Other dog comes up and my little fella tried to go for the other dogs neck. While the owner watched on, he didn't seem bothered by this at all. I got a bit upset over it. I don't want another dog to land in the vets, or even my own I think roping in some help with him is the way to go. Before my I got my little fella I didn't think dog behaviourists were all that common. I'll look into this I think, thanks DBB

SingItOut

DBB wrote: »

Spraying condensed air beside a dog's ear is not, cannot be positive. It is an aversive.

The spray is not supposed to be used near a dogs head. It is to be used close by yes but not too near. A couple of feet behind the dog is the correct method. We stock them in work and if a customer "tests" the spray it is pretty damn loud even for my ears!

It is also a very effective training tool to get the dogs attention when used correctly

DBB

SingItOut wrote: »

The spray is not supposed to be used near a dogs head. It is to be used close by yes but not too near. A couple of feet behind the dog is the correct method. We stock them in work and if a customer "tests" the spray it is pretty damn loud even for my ears!

It is also a very effective training tool to get the dogs attention when used correctly

I'm not disputing that it's an effective training tool. But it is an aversive training tool, and works as a positive punisher to get its effects. Because there are more ethical ways to achieve the same result, I don't advocate their use, because used correctly or not, the fall-out from using aversives can be just too much. I know a hell of a lot of dogs who would be utterly devastated if someone sounded a pet corrector anywhere near them, let alone a couple of feet from their ear, or right next to their ear.

Choke chains, prong collars, electric shock collars, cattle prods, kicking, shouting etc are all effective training tools too, when used correctly. But they work by aversive means to achieve the training they do. For a dog that is suffering from emotional problems in any situation (in other words, suffering a behavioural problem), using an aversive might work, but for an emotional dog, it is a huge, huge risk. Not for me nor any dog I work with, particularly in light of the fact that a more thought-out approach means that no aversives need to be used, and therefore, there is no risk of fall-out from them.

Zoria, I can fully empathise with your problem with other dogs approaching you.. it's an utter pain in the butt when you're trying to work slowly with a dog like your own. However, ideally you would starv off his systematic desensitisation (ie finding his "critical distance" and working at or beyond it until he's ready to progress), in a place where you're not going to encounter other dogs, other than your toy dog or a very safe on-lead real dog. I know this can be damn hard to find.. can you think of any areas which you could drive to that are dog-free, at any time of the day? You're also better going for a few short walks (though your walks won't be "walks" any more, they'll all be focussed on this process of systematic desensitisation), and if you do happen to be out and about and you see a dog coming from a distance away, just turn around and get outta there, if you can at all! You do have to be very pro-active with this one, and keep your dog coccooned from other uncontrolled dogs in the early stages especially.
Whereabouts are you based? Hopefully someone here might be able to recommend a qualified behaviourist in your area to help you... a good behaviourist who uses ethical training methods and understands learning theory is well worth the money!

Zoria

DBB wrote: »

Zoria, I can fully empathise with your problem with other dogs approaching you.. it's an utter pain in the butt when you're trying to work slowly with a dog like your own. However, ideally you would starv off his systematic desensitisation (ie finding his "critical distance" and working at or beyond it until he's ready to progress), in a place where you're not going to encounter other dogs, other than your toy dog or a very safe on-lead real dog. I know this can be damn hard to find.. can you think of any areas which you could drive to that are dog-free, at any time of the day? You're also better going for a few short walks (though your walks won't be "walks" any more, they'll all be focussed on this process of systematic desensitisation), and if you do happen to be out and about and you see a dog coming from a distance away, just turn around and get outta there, if you can at all! You do have to be very pro-active with this one, and keep your dog coccooned from other uncontrolled dogs in the early stages especially.
Whereabouts are you based? Hopefully someone here might be able to recommend a qualified behaviourist in your area to help you... a good behaviourist who uses ethical training methods and understands learning theory is well worth the money!

I live in an area where I have luckily both beach and fields near me. they are popular at times with other owners, so I try to avoid the peak times. I even wait till it rains, or its windy to help at time. though I do feel avoiding dogs is wrong, even though it scares me a little with the little guy. He's so .. defensive or scared. I dont know which, hes not scared! :eek:

DBB

Zoria wrote: »

I live in an area where I have luckily both beach and fields near me. they are popular at times with other owners, so I try to avoid the peak times. I even wait till it rains, or its windy to help at time. though I do feel avoiding dogs is wrong, even though it scares me a little with the little guy. He's so .. defensive or scared. I dont know which, hes not scared! :eek:

Avoiding dogs is absolutelyt fine and necessary for now. Emphasis on the "for now" bit. It is very, very difficult, nigh on impossible, to teach any animal anything whilst they're in an over-emotional state. So, in order to teach some basic coping skills, the animal (and this includes humans!) needs to come out of the scary situation, learn some coping skills, and then slowly, slowly start to introduce them to the environment they aren't happy in, but now equipped with a set of skills to help them deal with the situation better.
Chances are your dog is scared.. terriers don't show they're scared, their way of dealing with fear is to pretend they're Taz . So, if you put yourself into a similar situation.. say for example, you're scared of spiders. If I came along and threw you into a room full of spiders, you would be petrified. You would either curl up in a corner and cry and hope they go away, or you would freak out and try to stamp on every one of them to get rid of them. The latter is the terrier way!
However, human behavioural therapists would never do this to a patient. It is called flooding, and is now considerd to be a harmful and traumatic form of therapy. Instead, they teach the patient in a spider-free environment how to relax and calm themselves when they feel anxious. They then expose the patient to a very low-level spider-approximation (eg a picture of a spider.. the equivalent of the stuffed toy dog:)), and the patient uses their new calming skills. Eventually, as the patient gets better at bringing these skills into play, they can be exposed to stronger spider representations, until eventually they can not only be in the same room, they can even handle the spiders!
It's a similar process when teaching a dog how to cope with something he's scared of, angry with, overexcited around, though we also have to bear in mind that dogs can't rationalise their emotions in the way humans can. However, by and large, it's the same process: take the dog/human out of the situation, teach them new skills, then slowly reintroduce them to the situation.
It's great that you have some wide open areas near you.. beaches with dunes are great as you can go behind dunes for some peace and quiet, and good thinking going out when the weather's bad. One thing I will warn you of though... owners of problem dogs often bring them for walks early morning or late evening, which on the face of it seems a good idea, but if lots of problem dogs are out at the same time, you can end up with lots of aggro!

Zoria

Thanks for explaining it to me DBB, makes a lot of sense. He seems to want to be constantly close to me, so I thought it may have been a protective thing. There may be an element of that in it, but I think you're spot on about being a scared. I've loads to go on now, thanks for that