movin on up...?

bdoo

Would any of you here consider applying for principal / deputy positions?

Do ye think that its better to come into a job from outside or to be internally promoted?

Is there a general lack of ambition and a resentment of it where it does exist?

seavill

I think I would like to a few years down the track but certainly not for a while, I really enjoy teaching at the moment and would miss it if I was not doing it.

Although I do spend a lot of time thinking about what I would do in a certain situation if I was boss so I would imagine I would like it eventually.

My personal opinion is that it is better to come from outside with fresh ideas and opinions you can learn from them they can learn from you. You have no loyalities to friends etc. and not as much resentment from other members of staff who were turned down for the job particularly if you are younger than them.

I don't think there is a lack of ambition I think it is more to do with the fact that the job of principal has turned into such a paper pushing exercise with more and more pressure being put on principals that it is not an attractive position at times.

On the other hand there can be resentment towards ambition I have seen this in a school I worked in where someone was seen to "jump the queue" and there was a lot of bitching and back stabbing but at the same time those outside that small minded group admired her without admitting it.

doc_17

I'd prefer to stay within the school. I'd love to be a deputy before I'm 40 and Then maybe the big job when I'm 50 after i spent 10 years training as an accountant/solicitor! But that's a long way off yet!

As for resentment from others? Well that would happen whoever gets it so it wouldn't bother me. It'll soon be forgotten. Sometimes there can be more resentment towards an "outsider" as they then need to try and marshall the troops and if there were 4 or 5 internal candidates who were unsuccessful they could be difficult to get back in board.

bdoo

There was an internal post in my school 3 years ago- it was acting. I went for it but was unsuccessful, it came up the following year as an open competition I applied again same story the person who got it first time head on to it in fairness i wasn't unhappy in either case and would have been very surprised if i had got it.

Going for the job alone changed things in school for me. A lot of smart comments in the staffroom, friendly banter too with some staff kind of half messing about it but some very underhand stuff too.

I definitely want to do it just dont know when the right time is, I'll only be 30 this year. I suppose im thinking that it could be like a sentence if you were in it for too long.

Trying to weigh it all up. I would definitely go for it in my school again but i am a bit nervous about moving. Different challenge i suppose regardless of what way it happened

Fuinseog

bdoo wrote: »

Would any of you here consider applying for principal / deputy positions?

Do ye think that its better to come into a job from outside or to be internally promoted?

Is there a general lack of ambition and a resentment of it where it does exist?

outsiders are sometimes unwelcome as principals. they might bring in changes to an environment that does not like change.

spurious

It's also a thankless, horrible job.
You end up being blamed for everything without actually having full control over what goes on.

There are never very many applicants for Principalships these days, so many of those we get are a 'best of a bad lot' selection. I think myself many of the people who would make the best Principals wouldn't even think of applying.

Fuinseog

you also have principals who enforce the school rules and get away with it, while others who do so end up getting sued.
just think of the numerous hairgate incidents or the poor child who gets sent home for dying his hair pink for charity (although school rules clearly state no dyed hair) or the leaving cert student who turns up for the LC without any uniform although asked to wear it.

2011abc

doc_17 wrote: »

As for resentment from others? Well that would happen whoever gets it so it wouldn't bother me. It'll soon be forgotten.

Famous last words!!!!!!!!!!

seavill

I also think there is a huge problem in this country in terms of a lot of people up to recently have seen it as a nice retirement package in the last few years in the job.

I have experienced several schools where this has been detrimental to the schools involved as in the last few years those principals were not interested in making any changes were just there to see out the years and try stay out of trouble.

It leads to lack of discipline, lack of support for staff etc.

Obviously there are exceptions but that has been my experience

bdoo

seavill wrote: »

I also think there is a huge problem in this country in terms of a lot of people up to recently have seen it as a nice retirement package in the last few years in the job.

I have experienced several schools where this has been detrimental to the schools involved as in the last few years those principals were not interested in making any changes were just there to see out the years and try stay out of trouble.

It leads to lack of discipline, lack of support for staff etc.

Obviously there are exceptions but that has been my experience

Add to that the wipeout of post-holders, the Deputy could have a lot of work on their hands on top of the normal stuff I suppose. But if you were afraid of doing a bit of work you'd hardly have much business applying for such a job, but yet you see it a fair bit. Hard to know.

TheDriver

I went for it and never looked back since but its a certain Type of person suits the role.

Miss Lockhart

Not wanting to be a principal/deputy doesn't mean you lack ambition. I have seen some staff who resent those who want to enter management but I have also experienced a condescending and sneering attitude from some of those management types towards those who are happy to remain in the classroom. It works both ways.

At this point in time I could not see myself wanting to be a principal or deputy. I came into teaching because I enjoy passing on a love of my subject in the classroom, so I don't think I would enjoy leaving that aspect behind. I could maybe see myself in a year head role.

My school has seen an internal appointment for both principal and deputy over the past couple of years. There is very little resentment. There are the usual disagreements with some decisions, but that would happen no matter who was in place or what decisions were made - you can't please everyone.

I think there are pros and cons to both internal and external appointments. Outsiders could bring a fresh perspective and new ideas. The outsider may not have seen the real value in some practices that an insider could and might be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree that some people are just well suited to the job and others not so much. I also agree that often those who would make excellent principals would never apply.

RealJohn

Currently, I have no interest in becoming a deputy principal or principal. Like Miss Lockhart above me, I like being in the classroom on a daily basis, interacting with students, passing on my knowledge. I also have a strong dislike for paperwork, fundraising and that sort of stuff that seems to take up a lot of principals' time these days.

That being said, if I start seeing a lot of my friends moving up the ladder, I could imagine myself getting itchy feet but I've been teaching seven years and I imagine it'll be another seven before I even consider that sort of role.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Currently, I have no interest in becoming a deputy principal or principal. Like Miss Lockhart above me, I like being in the classroom on a daily basis, interacting with students, passing on my knowledge. I also have a strong dislike for paperwork, fundraising and that sort of stuff that seems to take up a lot of principals' time these days.

That being said, if I start seeing a lot of my friends moving up the ladder, I could imagine myself getting itchy feet but I've been teaching seven years and I imagine it'll be another seven before I even consider that sort of role.

I would say the same, I have no interest in dealing with admin work, timetabling, hiring teachers, discipline and meetings with parents in relation to this, school budgeting etc etc. I wouldn't begrudge anyone on staff going for DP/Principal either if it came up. It's not for me. I don't lack ambition, but I'd be more likely to channel my energy in another direction if I was to leave the classroom rather than move into school management.

I am the PLC Co-ordinator in my school and I have plenty of admin work to go with it. I don't mind it because it is mainly office admin work, I don't have to deal with parent, disciplinary issues, hiring staff etc, and it's more than enough.

bdoo

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Not wanting to be a principal/deputy doesn't mean you lack ambition. I have seen some staff who resent those who want to enter management but I have also experienced a condescending and sneering attitude from some of those management types towards those who are happy to remain in the classroom. It works both ways.

At this point in time I could not see myself wanting to be a principal or deputy. I came into teaching because I enjoy passing on a love of my subject in the classroom, so I don't think I would enjoy leaving that aspect behind. I could maybe see myself in a year head role.

My school has seen an internal appointment for both principal and deputy over the past couple of years. There is very little resentment. There are the usual disagreements with some decisions, but that would happen no matter who was in place or what decisions were made - you can't please everyone.

I think there are pros and cons to both internal and external appointments. Outsiders could bring a fresh perspective and new ideas. The outsider may not have seen the real value in some practices that an insider could and might be too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree that some people are just well suited to the job and others not so much. I also agree that often those who would make excellent principals would never apply.

I Fully agree that not wanting the job doesn't mean that someone is not ambitious, I didn't mean it in this way in my original post. I was talking in general about the lack of applications for management posts and the willingness to criticise rather than contribute.

I also agree that some people are never happy and that it is hard to please everyone. I think that even trying to please people is a poor motivation for doing something.

Definitely think that some are suited more than others.

From my point of view I see people going for jobs as the next step when they are tired of the classroom. Certainly I would miss the classroom if I left it. I really think that if you are tired working with children in the classroom that the Deputy / Principals job won't get you away from them - if anything you'll deal with them more and with less of the 'good' kids.

It actually annoys me when I see people trying to see out their last few years in a top job - generally they are less than effective and are only winding down. I find schools to be terribly conservative. It is so difficult to make a contribution to the better running of a school unless you are there 20 years and at that stage I think that you can be so institutionalised that you can't see the wood for the trees.

I think that people who don't want to go into management should still be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

sneering attitude from some of those management types

I'm not sure what you mean by 'management types'. I thionk it comes back to the motivation for wanting the job.

Do you want to be the boss? or actually just work to make a better school?

I take it you mean the former when you say management types?

Miss Lockhart

bdoo wrote: »

I Fully agree that not wanting the job doesn't mean that someone is not ambitious, I didn't mean it in this way in my original post. I was talking in general about the lack of applications for management posts and the willingness to criticise rather than contribute.

Well, personally I don't think not wanting to be a principal takes away your right to criticise management decisions. Whilst I agree that some teachers can be overly critical and fail to realise how much a principal's hands may be tied by various policies, there is also legitimate criticism of what one sees as poor management. Again, not wanting to be in management does not mean they are not contributing. That is not to say that a principal should try to please anybody - they should get on with the job of improving their school.

bdoo wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by 'management types'. I thionk it comes back to the motivation for wanting the job.

Do you want to be the boss? or actually just work to make a better school?

I take it you mean the former when you say management types?

By "management types" I simply mean those who are interested in going into management.

Most of these are grand and just get on with their careers and more power to them. Others look down on those who would rather remain in the classroom - and in my experience that can include both those who simply want to be the boss and those who genuinely want to make a better school.