Herald Says "best fans in the world" a myth * Mod Note #53 *

CiaranC

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I guess thats the difference.

To me, a fan is someone who shows a real passion for a club; not someone judged on the amount of money they spend but by how much they love the club.

Hows does one show "real passion" for a club without being involved with it or attending matches?

Simply believing you are a football fan does not make it so. Its not some zen state of mind, its a thing people DO

8-10

born2bwild wrote: »

8-10 wrote: »

What's important is that LoI fans support their teams, EPL fans support their teams, and everybody gets behind the national side in the WC qualifiers and shuts up about dick-measuring between each other

Which national side should people living in this country support? .

Depends on their nationality, not residence, imo.

darced

This post has been deleted.

born2bwild

CiaranC wrote: »

Hows does one show "real passion" for a club without being involved with it or attending matches?

Simply believing you are a football fan does not make it so. Its not some zen state of mind, its a thing people DO

No, man, people who experience football entirely or mostly through the proxy of TV feel real passion - they really love their teams.

They really are football fans. They're just not fans of live football. They can't be.

Sure, technology has globalised consumption - whereyou live is becoming less and less relevant. This isn't new, either; Irish people have followed English football religiously at least since Match of the Day started in the 1960s.

However, one stubborn fact remains: geography. If you live in Cork, Dublin, Drogheda or Derry it is not possible to belong to an English football club in the physical, intimate, standing in the ground selling programmes, eating soggy chips in the p1ssings of rain, way that you can belong to a club based locally.

Don't get me wrong - I am not speaking disparagingly of those whose teams are based in a foreign country - they are real, passionate, devoted fans - the fact that their relationship is mediated by technology and separated forever by geography is irrelevant.

Such virtual reality is not enough for me, though.

CSF

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You'd be a fan of your local town I suppose.

Madworld

frankled wrote: »

It's unfortunate, I really wish LOI was much stronger. But it's unfair to blame the average supporter. And I was there in Gdansk, those fans spent a lot of money to be there, did us proud, and to suggest that they're barstoolers or big-occasion fair-weather supporters is bang out of order. (I go to international games too by the way)

If they don't go to the majority of Ireland home games then what else are they but fairweather fans?

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I don't support the English national team, in that I don't go looking for news the same way I do the United news. I don't wear English jerseys or go to England games.

But I definitely have more interest in the English team than the Irish one. How can I not? Half the team is made up of United guys. I know far more about the English players than I do the Irish players. So when an English game is on, and Rooney, Welbeck, Young et al are playing, of course I'll be more inclined to watch one of their games.

Does this surprise people? How am I expected to cheer one group of players for 9 months of the year, and be obsessive about news about the team, and then suddenly ignore and turn on them for the other three? :P

Excellent post. And its refreshing to see somebody who solely follows the EPL fan yet isn't a hypocrite with regards differentiating between supporting Ireland and England but not the LOI and EPL.

davocesque wrote: »

Regarding the OP, the worst cliche in football in surely 'real football'. It actually makes me angry when people call LOI or Lower League UK real football. Whats real about it? whats fake about top level football??

Real football is nothing to do with the level football. Real football fans go to matches week in week out whether it's the Polish Third Division or La Liga. Football customers watch a game on a T.V. Theres nothing wrong with being a customer either btw. But a season ticket holder living in Salford or Bootle isn't comparable to somebody from Swords who has Sky Sports.

davocesque wrote: »

As a former season ticket holder for 2 seasons at a LOI club, i can honestly say i would never buy a season ticket it again. The type of football is unattractive imo, and fair play to the fans of it, they do have passion. But i would like to point out that a HUGE majority of LOI fans are also Celtic fans (in my experience) which is no different to supporting an English club.

Personally I can't stand Celtic. If you wan't to support show how much of an Irish Republican you are, then there are better ways of doing it than supporting a Brittish team with one Irish player or buying a jersey, the tax of which pays the British armed forces

And I would also think the majority of LOI fans are definitely not Celtic fans. In fact I'd say the majority are actually EPL followers. Have a look on a LOI forum and you'll see pleanty of large threads on the EPL. You'll see very little activity on SPL ones.

http://srfcultrasforum.eu/forum/showthread.php?2536-English-football-thread-2011-2012/page43

http://www.thebohs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17157&start=320

davocesque wrote: »

I follow real football, which i consider to be leagues i find attractive, so basically La Liga and to a lesser degree the Bundesliga. I also follow Ireland, despite the fact i HATE the football we play, i cant help but love the team, same cant be said about my local LOI team.

So you follow football which you consider to be attractive. You don't like football which isn't attractive. Yet you love the National Team. There's very little logic to that argument.

Hailee Salty Revolver wrote: »

all this has to be taken into context i went to see cork city play nantes in france a few years ago and it was a lot of fun but the league of irelands quality is incredibly low we are so close to england that any half decent player will be snapped up and given a chance over there leaving us mostly with either very young players or old players who never made it in england.

How will the low standards improve if people like yourself don't go regularly? Are the standards worse than the German Fourth Division? Or the Ukranian Third Division?
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Hailee Salty Revolver wrote: »

its great to see st pats get 3000 people out thats a lot of people at the game if you consider the amount of teams in dublin and the standard of the league.

il go to a city game every now and again but loi will never get the same attendances as english clubs because they either get to see world class players week in week out or they have the opportunity to be promoted/bought by a seik and do so. loi football is pretty low standard and always will be simply because we are so close to a football superpower

If proximity is such an issue how can a similar sized country to Ireland such as Denmark sustain an average attendance of 7,000 with their proximity to Germany?

Hailee Salty Revolver wrote: »

Apoel and the big Scottish teams have far far bigger payrolls than any irish team your picking and choosing facts

Francie Barrett wrote: »

You're a fantasist. Firstly, APOEL Nicosia were able to spend €1 million on a single player - that is more than the entire annual budget of Shamrock Rovers. Secondly, to suggest that an Irish team is even remotely close to becoming a European force is just nonsensical. Bohemians were beaten by a second division Icelandic team for crying out loud.

Funny how Cork City were beating Cypriot teams not so long ago.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2006/matches/round=2354/match=84279/index.html

And the SPL despite it's riches isn't actually any better than the LOI if you exclude the ugly twin sisters.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/following-league-of-irelands-blueprint-could-1032575

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So if your team is ****, your a fan. If it's a massivly supported world renowned one, your not?

No if you go to games your a fan. If you don't your a follower. I'm a Dublin GAA follower. I'v been to about three games in my life. I watch all the games on T.V. However I couldn't and wouldn't put myself in the same bracket of fan as somebody who goes to O'Bryne Cup matches in Wexford in the middle of winter just because I tune into RTE for five Sundays of the year.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If the LOI started drawing 60,000 crowds at every game and shels became a major force in world football, maybe even floated on the stock exchange, is Gavin "shels" no longer a football fan, but a customer who should now drop Shels and head off to the Leinster senior league in search of "real" football to watch?

If Shels started drawing 60,000 at every game then those people who regularly attend are fans. And the 500,000 people from England who decide to watch them on T.V aren't

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Love reading this forum when threads like these pop up

Only reason I watch soccer is because it's on telly every Saturday. I like to see the national side doing well and have even gone to a few internationals

Would I got to a LOI game? Not in a million years. No interest really, I'm from Tipp, have no ties to any LOI club and have never really felt like spending money to go and see them play, just like my lack of ties to English clubs has stopped me going to see a premier ship game. Although If I had to choose one over the other of course I'd go to a premiership game to see some of the best players in the world.

Out of interest would you support the Kerry GAA team ahead of the Tipp due to the fact their players are of a higher standard?

And because In recognize some of your post from the rugby forum, what would your opinion be of Munster fans who start to support Leinster now that Munster are in the doldrums?

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Now should I be looked down upon for supporting the national side because of this? I don't think so. Think a lot of people need to get down off their high horses and look at the situation rationally

Would you support the Spanish team ahead of the ROI because they have technically superior players?

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The article is self is just what you'd expect from a rag like the Herald too. After all it was the media that christened us "the best fans in the world"

I'd love to know what is ragish about the article? Is it sensationalist or is your issue with it owing to the fact it reveals an uncomfortable truth?

TaosHum

In my book, a fan is someone who has an emotional attachment to a football club. Their proud to wear the colors, upset when the team loses and are joyous when the team wins.

Why people have that emotional attachment or how they developed it is irrelevant.

I understand the frustration of anyone that follows a LoI club and consistently see football fans paying no attention to the local game, but instead allign themselves with foreign sides. Football in this country cannot grow until a concise effort is made by every football fan in the country to start supporting an Irish side.

But the football culture in this country has to change first before that can happen and its not just up to the punter. The FAI have to start actually making efforts to attend games, invest in infrastructure, making things easier financially for clubs with regards to paying to play in the league and most of all appealing to the youth. They cannot continue to just line their own coffers and be satisfied with how the National team is doing. Its plainly obvious the National team comes before the welfare of their own league.

Then you have the media, who consistently line the back pages with English football stories. The Champions League and weekly Premiership highlight shows have the best and most entertaining pundits in the country. Exposure of the LoI in the media is miles behind the Premiership, which again needs to be changed. It again plays second fiddle to the EPL.

Considering how much is actually going against the LoI in terms of money, exposure and priority paid to it by its own FA, I actually think its doing well to maintain what it has at the moment. The league is fighting a losing battle on all fronts, yet there are people still turning up, who do deserve credit.

8-10

born2bwild wrote: »

Given that so many people on this island identify with English clubs (evidenced by the use of 'us' and 'we' in discussions about 'their' teams) it would be logically more consistent for these fans to support England.

You have the logic backwards here. The number 1 soccer team I support, number 1 always above all others, is the Republic of Ireland national team. I'm sure that's the same for a lot of soccer fans here.

I have been to the majority of home games for 20 years, including every home qualifier from 1993 - 2001. I sit in the stands rain or shine, I sing the songs, I go to away games where I can, I buy jerseys and programmes, Ive been to underage and women's internationals.

I am not a RoI barstooler.

However, the VAST majority of soccer players I have seen play for Ireland, Im guessing 95-99%, have played club soccer in England. Given your logic that club and national soccer fans should be linked by the players, what team should I logically follow if my passion is for Rep of Ireland?

Im not a fan of an English team by the way, but by your logic I should be because the soccer players on the team I primarily follow, play there. Right?

darced

This post has been deleted.

dan1895

Madworld wrote: »

If they don't go to the majority of Ireland home games then what else are they but fairweather fans?




Excellent post. And its refreshing to see somebody who solely follows the EPL fan yet isn't a hypocrite with regards differentiating between supporting Ireland and England but not the LOI and EPL.



Real football is nothing to do with the level football. Real football fans go to matches week in week out whether it's the Polish Third Division or La Liga. Football customers watch a game on a T.V. Theres nothing wrong with being a customer either btw. But a season ticket holder living in Salford or Bootle isn't comparable to somebody from Swords who has Sky Sports.



Personally I can't stand Celtic. If you wan't to support show how much of an Irish Republican you are, then there are better ways of doing it than supporting a Brittish team with one Irish player or buying a jersey, the tax of which pays the British armed forces

And I would also think the majority of LOI fans are definitely not Celtic fans. In fact I'd say the majority are actually EPL followers. Have a look on a LOI forum and you'll see pleanty of large threads on the EPL. You'll see very little activity on SPL ones.

http://srfcultrasforum.eu/forum/showthread.php?2536-English-football-thread-2011-2012/page43

http://www.thebohs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17157&start=320



So you follow football which you consider to be attractive. You don't like football which isn't attractive. Yet you love the National Team. There's very little logic to that argument.



How will the low standards improve if people like yourself don't go regularly? Are the standards worse than the German Fourth Division? Or the Ukranian Third Division?
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm


If proximity is such an issue how can a similar sized country to Ireland such as Denmark sustain an average attendance of 7,000 with their proximity to Germany?






Funny how Cork City were beating Cypriot teams not so long ago.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2006/matches/round=2354/match=84279/index.html

And the SPL despite it's riches isn't actually any better than the LOI if you exclude the ugly twin sisters.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/following-league-of-irelands-blueprint-could-1032575


No if you go to games your a fan. If you don't your a follower. I'm a Dublin GAA follower. I'v been to about three games in my life. I watch all the games on T.V. However I couldn't and wouldn't put myself in the same bracket of fan as somebody who goes to O'Bryne Cup matches in Wexford in the middle of winter just because I tune into RTE for five Sundays of the year.



If Shels started drawing 60,000 at every game then those people who regularly attend are fans. And the 500,000 people from England who decide to watch them on T.V aren't



Out of interest would you support the Kerry GAA team ahead of the Tipp due to the fact their players are of a higher standard?

And because In recognize some of your post from the rugby forum, what would your opinion be of Munster fans who start to support Leinster now that Munster are in the doldrums?



Would you support the Spanish team ahead of the ROI because they have technically superior players?


I'd love to know what is ragish about the article? Is it sensationalist or is your issue with it owing to the fact it reveals an uncomfortable truth?

Best post so far and a refreshing change from all the cringe being spouted from both sides.

CiaranC

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why would you be sure? What level do you watch football at? What sort of attendences do the games get? Not tempted to post about them here?

CSF

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well i would be sure a large percentage of the people on here watch live football at some level so we are 'real' fans just not LOI fans.[/Quote]
Of course, if you consider yourself to support the non-LOI local team, and go to the games, then who is anyone to tell you that the team must be at a certain level before it becomes valid.

born2bwild

8-10 wrote: »

You have the logic backwards here. The number 1 soccer team I support, number 1 always above all others, is the Republic of Ireland national team. I'm sure that's the same for a lot of soccer fans here.

I have been to the majority of home games for 20 years, including every home qualifier from 1993 - 2001. I sit in the stands rain or shine, I sing the songs, I go to away games where I can, I buy jerseys and programmes, Ive been to underage and women's internationals.

I am not a RoI barstooler.

However, the VAST majority of soccer players I have seen play for Ireland, Im guessing 95-99%, have played club soccer in England. Given your logic that club and national soccer fans should be linked by the players, what team should I logically follow if my passion is for Rep of Ireland?

Im not a fan of an English team by the way, but by your logic I should be because the soccer players on the team I primarily follow, play there. Right?

Wrong.

How could you possibly take the argument that 'club and national soccer fans should be linked by the players' from anything I've posted?

It's not that fans follow players - it's that they follow clubs. If people followed clubs because of the Irish players they have then you'd see a lot of Reading, Aston Villa and MKDons jerseys walking up and down the streets of this country - you don't see that - what you see is United, Arsenal, Chelsea etc...

Players come and go but clubs, like countries, are fixed entities (most of the time).

Of course, ex-players of your club will still hold your interest - but that's not a defining relationship for football fans.

At any rate, my argument was about how geography is being made irrelevant by technology - most Irish football fans don't actually go to actual games because of geography (they don't live in England) but because of technology (TV, internet) they don't have to actually go to matches to be fans.

Why is it that geography suddenly matters when it comes to internationals?

Most people will say: " I'm Irish, why would I follow England?"

Not so many say: "I'm Irish, why would I follow the English league?"

If they were to be consistent, Irish football fans of the English league should perform the same 'short circuiting' of the geographical facts and follow the English international team.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to offend any sensitive souls out there who might think I'm telling them to be 'consistent' or any such nonsense - but the reasons why Irish football fans don't follow the English international team have nothing to do with football. Most Irish football fans know more about the players in the English international squad than they do about the Irish because, by and large, they follow the top few teams in England.

TheDoc

darkman2 wrote: »

I find the support of the English game in Ireland embarrassing to be honest. I find it silly when some person who lives in Waterford, for example, when referring to Manchester United refers to them as "we" - i.e I hope we get that player or another player. I am sure Manchester City Boroughs are absolutely delighted with your support for that city in the UK. It's dosh to them. Pitty some don't realise LOI is only ****e because so many prefer to support English teams and defacto England both sportingly and financially. I think it is a hangover from when British rule was in Ireland - an inferiority complex.

Or its simply, like 9/10 fans of clubs, simply going on what your family supports, and what you grew up watching.

My father is a Leeds United fan, and my uncles and cousins are all Man United. I didn't really support a club, until I watched a game with Peter Schmeichel, became my idol throughout schoolboy football, and inevitably I became to support them.

I just dont get why people get so ancy about it. And I get cringy when people think they are "better fans" because they support their local.

We live in a world different to the 80's and before, **** even the 90's. We can watch any game from any team in Europes top leagues, we have instant access to a world of information.

I can fully understand why a young lad today is drawn to the Premier League in England, and not enthralled by LOI football.

I'll just never get the rage LOI fans seem to get, but I'll never accept the ****e that they spin. About being real football fans, and the arse blowing about "**** the queen" and all that nonsense.

I've followed and watched United now for most of my football coherant life. Did I have a spell away, yes, of course. I wanted to support my Da's club, so I did, but I always had this deep connection to United ever since Schmeichel.

And that's what being a fan is, having that connection. There is different levels, different ways of expression. I watch all their games, I'm interested in the club, I'm gutted when they lose, chuffed when they win.

But seemingly in a lot of peoples eyes, and its mostly LOI fans I know, it makes me a plastic fan, because I just follow success?

But nothing noted against the Liverpool fans, following as such based of their no doubt parents or relatives, who supported Liverpool when they dominated the game.

Or the Leeds fans, no doubt picked up the White after their dominance.

Its simply put, irrelevant, and the glory of the whole thing is making your own emotional connection and attachment.

In golf for example, I have ZERO connection or emotional bond with any of the Irish players, love to see them do well, will always root for them, but I find myself hinging on how Sergio Garcia plays and dos, always hoping he will get his major.

Everyone has their own connection, yeah it might be fake, yeah it might be bandwagon jumping, but simply put its everyones own selection, its their dedication and their choice.

Not to be pressured or forced upon by " real" fans.

Madworld

8-10 wrote: »

You have the logic backwards here. The number 1 soccer team I support, number 1 always above all others, is the Republic of Ireland national team. I'm sure that's the same for a lot of soccer fans here.

I have been to the majority of home games for 20 years, including every home qualifier from 1993 - 2001. I sit in the stands rain or shine, I sing the songs, I go to away games where I can, I buy jerseys and programmes, Ive been to underage and women's internationals.

I am not a RoI barstooler.

Nobody has called you a barstooler. So there is no need to get so defensive.

So let me put this situation to you. Would you consider who watches some Ireland games on T.V "a proper" Ireland fan? Or let me put it another way would you be happy if they got Euro 2012 tickets at the expense of yourself? If so then you must also "have the logic backwards here"

However, the VAST majority of soccer players I have seen play for Ireland, Im guessing 95-99%, have played club soccer in England. Given your logic that club and national soccer fans should be linked by the players, what team should I logically follow if my passion is for Rep of Ireland?

Im not a fan of an English team by the way, but by your logic I should be because the soccer players on the team I primarily follow, play there. Right?

As you stated earlier the Irish football team is your number one footballing passion. We'll if you look at the makeup of the current team, the League Of Ireland has had a strong influence in it and has done through the years developing the likes of Paul McGrath and Roy Keane.

Now since you giving percentages lets have a look at the squad against Serbia. The current squad consists of twenty three players. Of those twenty three nine were born outside the Republic of Ireland. This means that only 60.8% of the current squad is actually from here.

And amongst those 14 players (I'm including James McClean amongst the foreign contingent) six have player football in the League Of Ireland.

So that leave eight Irish born players who have been developed through British clubs. And although I don't have any figures to hand, I think it is generally recognized that this number is going to continue to decline with the influx of players from outside the UK & Ireland in English clubs.

So I ask you if British clubs aren't developing the same number of talented Irish players as they used to, and League Of Ireland teams can't finance proper coaching for these talented players due to a poor attendances, what is your strategy to develop these players?

I think the majority of Ireland fans want us to be up there with other small countries like Croatia and Uruguay. To achieve this realise we need domestic leagues as strong as them.

TheDoc wrote: »

Or its simply, like 9/10 fans of clubs, simply going on what your family supports, and what you grew up watching. Or its simply, like 9/10 fans of clubs, simply going on what your family supports, and what you grew up watching.

Funny how I didn't see many people supporting a vitriolically anti-Irish team like Chelsea until they got taken over by a billionaire. And they developed a "winning brand".

And the reason why people in Ireland are going to support Man City in a couple of years is because their family have always been proper staunch city supporters.

So please stop trying to put forward this daft romantic notion of a Dubliner's family ties to watching a team on the T.V. It's family ties to a world renowned brand that people want to be associated with and it's no different to wanting to be part of the Nike or Calvin Klein brand.

TheDoc wrote: »

I just dont get why people get so ancy about it. And I get cringy when people think they are "better fans" because they support their local.

TheDoc wrote: »

I'll just never get the rage LOI fans seem to get, but I'll never accept the ****e that they spin. About being real football fans, and the arse blowing about "**** the queen" and all that nonsense.

Jaysus talk about hyperbole. LOI fan's "anger" and "rage". Has a LOI fan ever attacked you for supporting Man Utd? Somehow I doubt it.

TheDoc wrote: »

I've followed and watched United now for most of my football coherant life. Did I have a spell away, yes, of course. I wanted to support my Da's club, so I did, but I always had this deep connection to United ever since Schmeichel.

It couldn't be that deep if you can see-saw between two rival clubs who hate each other.

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's what being a fan is, having that connection. There is different levels, different ways of expression. I watch all their games, I'm interested in the club, I'm gutted when they lose, chuffed when they win.

But seemingly in a lot of peoples eyes, and its mostly LOI fans I know, it makes me a plastic fan, because I just follow success?

Would a season ticket holder who goes to all Utd Home and Away games be the same level of fan as yourself?

I know go to 90% of home matches and a sizeable proportion of away matches. In saying that, there are definitely better Bohs fans than myself who go to every home and away match over a season and they are better fans than myself.

DoctorGonzo08

Does it really matter in the end? Why get so worked up about someone else judging your 'level' of 'real fan'? Can you not just enjoy the game?

I was at the game in question, as I thought it was a great oppurtunity for some good football, which it was. I'm not a Pat's fan but don't see why that would stop me going. Everytime I'm home I go along to the Town's games. I've had great craic going to the qualifiers (especially Cyprus), and look forward to WC qualifiers. I go to nearly all the home friendlies, but seldom enough go to the home qualifiers. I haven't been to any major championship Ireland have been involved with. I go to as many home City games as I can and have been at every derby game going back the last 4 years. I'm moving to Milton Keynes shortly and I'll go to there games hopefully too.

My point is that if you enjoy the game & atmosphere, why does it bother you if someone decides to give you a label? How on earth does that affect your own enjoyment of the sport, be it LOI, EPL, International etc.?

stovelid

Note to self: never stir hornets nest of Irish football support when on the beer in the early hours after the match.

TheDoc

Madworld wrote: »

Funny how I didn't see many people supporting a vitriolically anti-Irish team like Chelsea until they got taken over by a billionaire. And they developed a "winning brand".

And the reason why people in Ireland are going to support Man City in a couple of years is because their family have always been proper staunch city supporters.

So please stop trying to put forward this daft romantic notion of a Dubliner's family ties to watching a team on the T.V. It's family ties to a world renowned brand that people want to be associated with and it's no different to wanting to be part of the Nike or Calvin Klein brand.

I'm not getting your point. Just like the Liverpool fans, Blackburn, Newcastle and Leeds, at various times they were being victorious and as young football fans, no doubt they pledged their allegiance. And as their children grew up in a house of their support, its inevitable its passed on.

Just as surely a LOI fan most likely grows up surrounded by LOI. Don't talk pony and try say a child makes an intellectual decision on what club they will support, its highly influenced by those around them.

I know Man City fans oddly enough, and they followed them before the success based on their family or relatives. I've no doubt they will spawn more little City supporters I have no friends who support Chelsea oddly enough, from a large group of friends.

Associating it to being part of a world brand is just selective at this point, most people will pick their club as a child, where this is oblivious, and the main attraction, for a child, is most notably star names and being able to watch the team on the TV.

Jaysus talk about hyperbole. LOI fan's "anger" and "rage". Has a LOI fan ever attacked you for supporting Man Utd? Somehow I doubt it.

Physically, no , verbally, yes. I have close friends who are LOI diehard and frequently denounce my opinion on football matters because I follow the "English" game, an attitude very evident on this forum as well. While I doubt I'll ever get physical violence for my choice of club, verbal is very apparent and common.

It couldn't be that deep if you can see-saw between two rival clubs who hate each other.

As a child, and a young teen, the rivalry was pretty oblivious, as is most things to a child. I took more of an interest in Leeds at the age of 11, returning to my previous routes at 13/14.

I'm sure its fully plausible for someone of that age no to be coherent to rivalries and underlying tones between clubs.

Would a season ticket holder who goes to all Utd Home and Away games be the same level of fan as yourself?

That's again subjective,selective and irrelevant.

What are you trying to draw from this? While your statement was most likely broad in its sentiment, in practice its pretty stupid.

No I don't attend games, rarely infact, but I follow every match on TV. Any match not on TV I watch streams online. I also try to catch all the reserve games I can online or through MUTV aswell.

There is also the simple matter of finances, and it not been plausible to hitup every single game with travel.

I know its not the point your making, but I just want to highlight how irrelevant it is.

I could go out tomorrow, buy a Bohs jersey, and very easily go to every game home and away. Does that put me on the same level as you as a bohs fan?

No, its doesn't, but not because you cant attend matches, because you have an intricate connection and passion for the club.

CSF

TheDoc wrote: »

I could go out tomorrow, buy a Bohs jersey, and very easily go to every game home and away. Does that put me on the same level as you as a bohs fan?

No, its doesn't

It does though, this is the essence of passion. Not sitting at home on a comfortable couch getting very excited by what is happening on the TV screen.

Francie Barrett

Madworld wrote: »

Funny how Cork City were beating Cypriot teams not so long ago.

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2006/matches/round=2354/match=84279/index.html

Bohemians were hammered by an Icelandic second tier team. If a second division Iceland team can beat an LOI team, then obviously they should be able to beat a Cypriot team and qualify for the group stages of the Champions League

born2bwild

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Bohemians were hammered by an Icelandic second tier team. If a second division Iceland team can beat an LOI team, then obviously they should be able to beat a Cypriot team and qualify for the group stages of the Champions League

Didn't know Iceland was in Fifa 12.

dfx-

dfx- wrote: »

So you'll be going to Tallaght on Monday night then..meet up with dreamers75 somewhere on the way too.

Update to this: I did see two ladies in Drogheda kit, but no obvious Pats fans. A neutral game in Tallaght stadium maybe is not the most attractive proposition as originally put in this thread afterall.

8-10

If the games weren't on worknights there'd be a much better chance of me going. I honestly would love to feel passion for a local club over one that's over an hour flight away. Is there anything coming up at weekends? Cup or something? I'm in north Dublin but have a 2hr commute so weekdays are a no-no

born2bwild

http://www.extratime.ie/fixtures

Most games are on Fridays or Mondays. Sligo and Longford play at least some of their home matches on Saturdays.

Sligo would be worth the trip for their football alone - I've travelled up there to see them play even when Shels weren't playing them - once against Shamrock Rovers; once against Vorskla.

CiaranC

DoctorGonzo08 wrote: »

Does it really matter in the end?

Yes of course it matters. If our league wasnt dying on its arse do you think LOI fans would care that there are a half a million plastics in Ireland pretending to be football fans? Barstoolers are killing Irish football by refusing to invest in the league as happens elsewhere.

bohsman

8-10 wrote: »

If the games weren't on worknights there'd be a much better chance of me going. I honestly would love to feel passion for a local club over one that's over an hour flight away. Is there anything coming up at weekends? Cup or something? I'm in north Dublin but have a 2hr commute so weekdays are a no-no

If you could make a 7 45 kickoff in Dalymount on a Friday evening it really is a great way to kick start a weekend, a couple of pints, a game of ball and some banter, even some great football being played these days. Would certainly expect some of them to end up in England soon.

Gavin "shels"

8-10 wrote: »

If the games weren't on worknights there'd be a much better chance of me going. I honestly would love to feel passion for a local club over one that's over an hour flight away. Is there anything coming up at weekends? Cup or something? I'm in north Dublin but have a 2hr commute so weekdays are a no-no

Fridays is LoI night, Saturday/Sunday/Monday is EPL afternoon/evening/night(s).

Pedro K

TheDoc wrote: »

As a child, and a young teen, the rivalry was pretty oblivious, as is most things to a child. I took more of an interest in Leeds at the age of 11, returning to my previous routes at 13/14.

I'm sure its fully plausible for someone of that age no to be coherent to rivalries and underlying tones between clubs.

Sorry, I can't agree with you at all there. Maybe a child or young teen can be oblivious to the rialry if all he/she has ever seen of the rivalry is on telly. If that kid had been going to live games he or she would've found out very quickly that there is something different about certain fixtures.

My little brother is supporting Shamrock Rovers from around the age you stated above, 11, and he's always known the rivalries. He wouldn't dream of briefly switching to Bohs or Shels.

This is the sort of stuff that us LOI fans feel a lot of EPL only fans miss out on. I'm not having a go here, but a television set, no matter how loud, 3d or HD it is will ever convey the atmosphere at a live game, particularly one against bitter rivals.

It also won't convey the atmosphere around the ground, pre and post game. The buzz of derby day, the electricity when you walk into the stadium and the roar when your team take to the pitch.

TheDoc

CSF wrote: »

It does though, this is the essence of passion. Not sitting at home on a comfortable couch getting very excited by what is happening on the TV screen.

So simply because, I can financially afford to go to every Bohs game home and away, and probably buy a **** ton of merch, makes me a "better" fan, then a lad who has followed bohs for years and financially cant go to every game?

Are you for ****ing real?

The point I made, was that simply attending games doesn't make someone more of a fan then another. I have just as much passion for my team watching from home, and on the rare occasion I get to attend a game.

Lumbo

CiaranC wrote: »

Yes of course it matters. If our league wasnt dying on its arse do you think LOI fans would care that there are a half a million plastics in Ireland pretending to be football fans? Barstoolers are killing Irish football by refusing to invest in the league as happens elsewhere.

What a great way of making people feel welcome.

Btw I'm a barstooler:rolleyes: and I go to LOI games when I can.

I also sang in Poznan. Therefore, I'm the best football fan in Ireland.

CSF

TheDoc wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

It does though, this is the essence of passion. Not sitting at home on a comfortable couch getting very excited by what is happening on the TV screen.

So simply because, I can financially afford to go to every Bohs game home and away, and probably buy a **** ton of merch, makes me a "better" fan, then a lad who has followed bohs for years and financially cant go to every game?

Are you for ****ing real?

The point I made, was that simply attending games doesn't make someone more of a fan then another. I have just as much passion for my team watching from home, and on the rare occasion I get to attend a game.

Em no, because you'd be making the effort to go to every game. And I never said better, I said as much of a fan as someone else who spent years going to every game.

That may be your point, but its ridiculous. To put yourself in the same bracket as the lads following the team around England is delusional.

DoctorGonzo08

CiaranC wrote: »

Yes of course it matters. If our league wasnt dying on its arse do you think LOI fans would care that there are a half a million plastics in Ireland pretending to be football fans? Barstoolers are killing Irish football by refusing to invest in the league as happens elsewhere.

Did you not get past the first sentence? 'The matter' I reffered to was somebody using buzzwords, as above. I don't think it matters if you feel the need to call me or anyone else this. I go to watch football regardless, as I enjoy it. I don't feel the need to classify myself as a LOI fan, or otherwise.

As a matter of interest then, do you get a certificate renouncing your 'plastic' or 'barstooler' title if you go to a LOI game?

born2bwild

DoctorGonzo08 wrote: »

Did you not get past the first sentence? 'The matter' I reffered to was somebody using buzzwords, as above. I don't think it matters if you feel the need to call me or anyone else this. I go to watch football regardless, as I enjoy it. I don't feel the need to classify myself as a LOI fan, or otherwise.

As a matter of interest then, do you get a certificate renouncing your 'plastic' or 'barstooler' title if you go to a LOI game?

You probably shouldn't take the bait.

Whatever about barstools and plastics I think a lot of confusion can be resolved by stamping your feet a couple of times.... Feel that? Breathe in and out...taste that? That's Ireland under your feet and in your lungs - that's where you live. You don't live in England and therefore you can't easily go to EPL matches.

If you follow English football then you what you have is a TV, and a seat (possibly a barstool) - that's it.

I'm not going to say you're not a real a fan; you are watching football, after all and not bog/egg-ball, you do feel real passion(who can walk into any pub in Ireland on a Saturday afternoon and think anything else?)

The TV and the seat may be enough for you - that's not enough for me.

DoctorGonzo08

born2bwild wrote: »

If you follow English football then you what you have is a TV, and a seat (possibly a barstool) - that's it.

Haha true. I wonder would the government back you up here as you are investing in the economy by making the effort to be a barstooler and not a couch potato, and therefore the government are in a better position to allow a bigger budget to Irish Sports? Maybe a petition in the bar as to what sport you prefer the budget to go to might help. Then everyone could invest in the LOI

niallo27

born2bwild wrote: »

You probably shouldn't take the bait.

Whatever about barstools and plastics I think a lot of confusion can be resolved by stamping your feet a couple of times.... Feel that? Breathe in and out...taste that? That's Ireland under your feet and in your lungs - that's where you live. You don't live in England and therefore you can't easily go to EPL matches.

If you follow English football then you what you have is a TV, and a seat (possibly a barstool) - that's it.

I'm not going to say you're not a real a fan; you are watching football, after all and not bog/egg-ball, you do feel real passion(who can walk into any pub in Ireland on a Saturday afternoon and think anything else?)

The TV and the seat may be enough for you - that's not enough for me.

You do realise we have planes and boats and stuff that we can travel to England on.

born2bwild

niallo27 wrote: »

You do realise we have planes and boats and stuff that we can travel to England on.

Lots of us doing it one way these days.

Our football league isn't the only thing that we're trying to kill.

More and more reasons to sing the 'Fields of Athenry' every day.

smackbunnybaby

No Des = No Thread

Why can't we just all get along anyway?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o9oz9X5i9w

Helix

does nobody else find the term barstooler a bit cringeworthy? surely it's a relatively small fraction of EPL supporters who go to watch games in pubs

DoctorGonzo08

Helix wrote: »

does nobody else find the term barstooler a bit cringeworthy? surely it's a relatively small fraction of EPL supporters who go to watch games in pubs

I think it is incredibly cringworthy, but it seems to bring cheer to some, so who am I to deny them?

invinciblePRSTV

Helix wrote: »

does nobody else find the term barstooler a bit cringeworthy? surely it's a relatively small fraction of EPL supporters who go to watch games in pubs

Its a bit out of date tbh, whatwith streaming being all the rage these days. Although computerchairstooler doesn't have quiet the same ring to it.

TheDoc

CSF wrote: »

Em no, because you'd be making the effort to go to every game. And I never said better, I said as much of a fan as someone else who spent years going to every game.

That may be your point, but its ridiculous. To put yourself in the same bracket as the lads following the team around England is delusional.

I'm just not comprehending this..I don't mean to drag this point out, but it is probably #1 teeth grinder that my "LOI" mates level at me, they are better fans because they go to their clubs stadiums regularly, where as I don't.

Just to try hammer my point home.

To attend 4 home MUFC games a month.
Flying out in morning and home same day - €140
4 times = €560
Tickets at roughly €50? x4 = €200

€760 per month.

About €15 for a LOI game? €60 a month for 4 games?

€760 vs €60.

My point isn't directly labelled at finances, but the people who can actually afford to travel internationally to Old Trafford every weekend, are the exact people that get labelled as the "Prawn Sandwich brigade", no?

While you disagree that I shouldn't categorise myself with the hardcore, I personally don't believe that there are "categories".

Of course there are the absolute hardcore to which I would perhaps put in a higher category.

But by your logic, a bloke from Manchester who travels to watch LOI every week is a better fan then pretty much all of you, because he is paying to travel abroad to watch his team every week, enduring the financial hit from it, and on top of that downgrading the level of football and facilities on show...or are you saying its equal, because both parties attend the stadiums?

There is so many variables and constants that simply, for alot of people, rule out the ability to see their team regularly, but it doesn't and should not dampen or degrade that persons opinion or level of support for their club.

CSF

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm just not comprehending this..I don't mean to drag this point out, but it is probably #1 teeth grinder that my "LOI" mates level at me, they are better fans because they go to their clubs stadiums regularly, where as I don't.

Just to try hammer my point home.

To attend 4 home MUFC games a month.
Flying out in morning and home same day - €140
4 times = €560
Tickets at roughly €50? x4 = €200

€760 per month.

About €15 for a LOI game? €60 a month for 4 games?

€760 vs €60.

My point isn't directly labelled at finances, but the people who can actually afford to travel internationally to Old Trafford every weekend, are the exact people that get labelled as the "Prawn Sandwich brigade", no?

While you disagree that I shouldn't categorise myself with the hardcore, I personally don't believe that there are "categories".

Of course there are the absolute hardcore to which I would perhaps put in a higher category.

But by your logic, a bloke from Manchester who travels to watch LOI every week is a better fan then pretty much all of you, because he is paying to travel abroad to watch his team every week, enduring the financial hit from it, and on top of that downgrading the level of football and facilities on show...or are you saying its equal, because both parties attend the stadiums?

There is so many variables and constants that simply, for alot of people, rule out the ability to see their team regularly, but it doesn't and should not dampen or degrade that persons opinion or level of support for their club.

No, you're missing my point. Finances are completely irrelevant. Some people can't afford to support teams abroad (which is why it is logical to support the team down the road who you can afford to see), other can and you label them the 'prawn sandwich brigade', possibly accurately. I've only been to Old Trafford and Anfield once and therefore couldn't conclude on what these people are like.

Either way, a supporter is someone who is in the stands most weeks and I wouldn't be particularly into categorising it any further than that, other than to give my admiration to other fans who are there literally every week, home or away, near or far.

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

Either way, a supporter is someone who is in the stands most weeks and I wouldn't be particularly into categorising it any further than that, other than to give my admiration to other fans who are there literally every week, home or away, near or far.

So, here's a question; where do the hundreds of thousands of kids and teenagers in Ireland fall? The ones who insist their parents buy them merch and wear the jerseys, but obviously cannot attend many, if any, games because they live in Ireland. Is it impossible for the majority of young football followers to be deemed supporters and fans of a club?

And you can't say finances are irrelevant, since you're trying to argue it's what's stopping me from being a "true fan" of my club. If I had the money, I'd be over in Manchester every chance I got, but being unemployed, I simply cannot do that. So it is the lack of money being spent that you are arguing is the barrier between me being a customer and a fan...

_blank_

"Followers" yes.

Supporters, no.

I "follow" many teams. I look out for their results, for one reason or another, I'm happy when they win, kind of sad when they lose.

The money I spend in Tolka Park, match ticket, pints, whatever merchandise is new in the shop, a cup of tea, a chocolate bar, the program, the fanzine (yes the fanzine, Reds Ind sponsor players) literally, LITERALLY supports Shelbourne Football Club.

I've done volunteer work for the betterment of the club.

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So, here's a question; where do the hundreds of thousands of kids and teenagers in Ireland fall? The ones who insist their parents buy them merch and wear the jerseys, but obviously cannot attend many, if any, games because they live in Ireland. Is it impossible for the majority of young football followers to be deemed supporters and fans of a club?

And you can't say finances are irrelevant, since you're trying to argue it's what's stopping me from being a "true fan" of my club. If I had the money, I'd be over in Manchester every chance I got, but being unemployed, I simply cannot do that. So it is the lack of money being spent that you are arguing is the barrier between me being a customer and a fan...

They're the same as I am with a few teams around Europe, I really like them, I watch them on TV every week and I try to get over for a holiday every once in a while. But it isn't the same as actual football supporters around the world.

And I'm not talking about 'true fans' or any of that rubbish, and I'm not having a go at anyone. If I had the money, I'd be over in Spain every single week, aswell as Shelbourne, and I might even have the nerve to call myself a fan. But I can't afford that, so I don't. I'd love to be a pilot, but I can't afford to be, so I'm not one. Should I claim that I still am a pilot, since the only reason I'm not one is that I can't afford the hefty fees?

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

I'd love to be a pilot, but I can't afford to be, so I'm not one. Should I claim that I still am a pilot, since the only reason I'm not one is that I can't afford the hefty fees?

That metaphor really doesn't work in this case. You could still be a fan of pilots and their work without spending money.

I'm not trying to say I want to be a footballer. A footballer and a pilot is a very specific job title which entails a very specific line of work. The title of "fan" however, as seen by this topic, has no such specific limitations or requirements and everyone seems to have their own idea of what being a "fan" entails.

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

That metaphor really doesn't work in this case. You could still be a fan of pilots and their work without spending money.

I'm not trying to say I want to be a footballer. A footballer and a pilot is a very specific job title which entails a very specific line of work. The title of "fan" however, as seen by this topic, has no such specific limitations or requirements and everyone seems to have their own idea of what being a "fan" entails.

Not really. A fan has been the same for over a hundred years, and to those to whom that description applied, it still applies.

Lord TSC

CSF wrote: »

Not really. A fan has been the same for over a hundred years, and to those to whom that description applied, it still applies.

Your definition of what a fan is has been the same for you for however long you've held your definition. I have my definition which I could also easily say "has been the same for over a hundred years". A statement like that may sound grand but it really offers no more weight to either opinion in the arguement...

CSF

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Your definition of what a fan is has been the same for you for however long you've held your definition. I have my definition which I could also easily say "has been the same for over a hundred years". A statement like that may sound grand but it really offers no more weight to either opinion in the arguement...

It isn't my definition, it is the definition of fans all over the world. You couldn't argue that your definition has been the same for over a hundred years because people who follow a football team through a TV screen have existed nowhere near that long.

Lord TSC

Ok, I'm out of this debate then.

If we're going to resort to grandoise claims like trying to say our defintions are supported by hundreds of years of global support, there's no point continuing the discussion. I'll keep my defintion, you keep yours and we'll agree to disagree without engaging in any more hyperbole.