Migrant workers demand new residency scheme

alastair

VEN wrote: »

One of the conditions is to Pay a fine. The verb 'earn' does not apply here. Never heard of 'earning' a fine before.

The only person who mentioned 'earning a fine' was you.

Party Supply Van

SocSocPol wrote: »

The only one using the "Demand" word is you, in an attempt no doubt to lead to an inflamed debate!

Are you going to apologize to the OP for trying to derail thread by wrongly accusing him of trying to inflame the debate?

Border-Rat

P.C. wrote: »

If all the undocumented Irish in the US came back to Ireland, this country would bankrupt the whole EU.

And it would sink.

If my uncle...

alastair

Party Supply Van wrote: »

Are you going to apologize to the OP for trying to derail thread by wrongly accusing him of trying to inflame the debate?

In fairness - the OP threw in their own, home grown 'demand' reference too.

SocSocPol

VEN wrote: »

not at all, it just needs more man power.
the economic effect of mass immigration onto this small island is a disaster, though it keeps the employers happy, for now.

link to your scientific evidence or data for this claim.

SocSocPol

Party Supply Van wrote: »

Are you going to apologize to the OP for trying to derail thread by wrongly accusing him of trying to inflame the debate?

I stand over my post.

Party Supply Van

alastair wrote: »

In fairness - the OP threw in their own, home grown 'demand' reference too.

yes, he summed up his post with a question referencing the title of the article he just linked to. I just think soco jumped in feet first trying to discredit the OP and was blinded by presumption of his motives. I think OP deserves an apology

Party Supply Van

SocSocPol wrote: »

I stand over my post.

Why?

VEN

SocSocPol wrote: »

Thats a lie!
Nowhere in that petition presented or the cooments by those making it does the word DEMAND appear.

or nowhere in the headline even? i like how you left out 'headline' to argue your accusation.

alastair

Party Supply Van wrote: »

yes, he summed up his post with a question referencing the title of the article he just linked to. I just think soco jumped in feet first trying to discredit the OP and was blinded by presumption of his motives. I think OP deserves an apology

How about you apologize for accusing soco of trying to 'derail' the thread then? The Indo are trying to sex/stoke up the issue by referencing 'demands' that patently aren't there, and the OP chimed in with similar language. No actual demands exist - can we move on?

fasttalkerchat

Super Poppa Smurf wrote: »

As a migrant who has always followed the rule of the law, I do not think these folks should get amnesty. It is not right for folks like me who stand in lines with proper documentation and letters of reference over the years to rightly seek the right to stay within the state by legal means. It would be slap on the cheek for nurses, doctors, IT professionals, accountants, etc who all reside in the state as legal migrants. We have done things by the book, contributed to the economy, paid our taxes, and when the time is right as set by Irish law will become naturalized Irish citizens. There has to be a rule of law or this nation will change and we will not know what hit us. I would not be able to do my job without proper documentation so how do these folks still have jobs (when we have such high employment!!!). All I ask is that the legal migrants do not forgotten for their contribution to the state and be recognized for following the rule of the law.

For people from some countries it is not possible to be a legal migrant.

VEN

alastair wrote: »

The only person who mentioned 'earning a fine' was you.

no, according to the king of moo, its earn your residency by paying a fine, which is essentially paying for residency and not earning it.

the only other person using the "The only person" intro is SocSocPol, i'm not the only person noticing this, its so old at this stage.

The only other one i can think of right now is:

"what's that got to do with anything?"

you can use that one next if you wish, you are allowed to you know

Boombastic

Dirk Gently wrote: »

perhaps we should send them all home, and take back all the undocumented Irish living abroad. or maybe we should just STFU and realise we're a nation who migrates our young to other countries every generation.

What America does has no bearing on this. We can only control what happens within our own borders.


If America decide to deport illegals, that's their call, this one's ours. (should be ours).

alastair

VEN wrote: »

no, according to the king of moo, its earn your residency by paying a fine, which is essentially paying for residency and not earning it.

He said no such thing. Here's what he did say:

Those wishing to avail of it must pay a fine, then meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community. They have to earn their residency.

alastair

Boombastic wrote: »

What America does has no bearing on this. We can only control what happens within our own borders.

Maybe you missed the part where the government is actively lobbying for essentially the same arrangements for the Irish undocumented in the US? That would have some bearing on how they received such a petition here, no?

VEN

alastair wrote: »

He said no such thing. Here's what he did say:

That's a lie!!!

He said "No, not "pay." "EARN."

alastair

VEN wrote: »

That's a lie!!!

He said "No, not "pay." "EARN."

More sloppy comprehension?

statement wrote:

Those wishing to avail of it must pay a fine, then meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community. They have to earn their residency.

retort wrote:

So essentially pay for residency is what they want?

response wrote:

No, not "pay." "EARN."

Anyone gave difficulty in following the above? Anyone seeing 'earn for residency'? Anyone interpret this as 'its earn your residency by paying a fine'?

No. I didn't think so.

Galwayguy35

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's exactly what the proposed scheme is all about. Did you read what alastair quoted from the proposal above? Those wishing to avail of it must pay a fine, then meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community. They have to earn their residency.

Jesus, this is exactly the kind of thing people call for on AH ("it's fine if they come here to work and contribute, etc."), but people are still twisting it into a "cheek of dem fordiners, comin over here and makin demands of us" case, though that's probably largely due to a very biased OP.

They have a right to nothing if they are hiding out illegally.
They should have been rounded up when they were handing in their petition and sent back to where they came from.
That's how they would have handled it in Australia.

Boombastic

Would they be required to pay back tax on the money they earned illegally?

The King of Moo

VEN wrote: »

That's a lie!!!

He said "No, not "pay." "EARN."

VEN, seriously, just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Boombastic

The King of Moo wrote: »

VEN, seriously, just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

Earn the money to pay the fine, now are we all happy?

VEN

alastair wrote: »

Anyone gave difficulty in following the above? Anyone seeing 'earn for residency'? Anyone interpret this as 'its earn your residency by paying a fine'?

No. I didn't think so.

hold on hold on, you can't assume the boarders say 'no' within 10 minutes. let us wait for a few days. we should have a poll.

It's paying for residency, not matter what way you want to wiggle your argument that it's 'earning' it. if there was no fine, then yes it would be earning it through the other conditions, but one of the 'important' if not 'the' most important money making conditions here is 'pay'.

alastair

Boombastic wrote: »

Earn the money to pay the fine, now are we all happy?

You seem to be missing the point of what he wrote entirely.

alastair

VEN wrote: »

hold on hold on, you can't assume the boarders say 'no' within 10 minutes. let us wait for a few days. we should have a poll.

It's paying for residency, not matter what way you want to wiggle your argument that it's 'earning' it. if there was no fine, then yes it would be earning it through the other conditions, but one of the 'important' if not 'the' most important money making conditions here is 'pay'.

Says you. My reading of 'meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community' is they are all earned conditions.

Boombastic

alastair wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point of what he wrote entirely.

I don't think I did,
You being pedantic about the word 'demand' when it is clearly in bolded letters in the Headline is 'missing the point'.

The King of Moo

Boombastic wrote: »

Earn the money to pay the fine, now are we all happy?

No.
This is why I tend to avoid stupid threads like this.
People who are unable to make valid points without any kind of solid argument or evidence.
People who deny or ignore facts which are presented to them which contradict their stance, even slightly.
People who wilfully choose to misrepresent what people say to them, as it's easier than actually trying to come up with an argument against it.

You'd see more intellectual honesty and better debating skills in a schoolyard argument about whether Batman or Spider-man is better.

I'm done here.

VEN

alastair wrote: »

Says you. My reading of 'meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community' is they are all earned conditions.

hehe you're as bad as SocSoc leaving out the essentials, Paying the fine, the fine. don't leave out the fine bit. If you don't pay the fine in order to move on to the next stage, you get to earn nothing. That is the important bit. Paying for residency.

Boombastic

The King of Moo wrote: »

No.
This is why I tend to avoid stupid threads like this.
People who are unable to make valid points without any kind of solid argument or evidence.
People who deny or ignore facts which are presented to them which contradict their stance, even slightly.
People who wilfully choose to misrepresent what people say to them, as it's easier than actually trying to come up with an argument against it.

You'd see more intellectual honesty and better debating skills in a schoolyard argument about whether Batman or Spider-man is better.

I'm done here.

Fact is they are illegal in the country and have no right to work/live here.

You seem to choose to ignore that fact.

Hilly Bill

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's exactly what the proposed scheme is all about. Did you read what alastair quoted from the proposal above? Those wishing to avail of it must pay a fine, then meet conditions such as working, paying taxes and contributing to the community. They have to earn their residency.

Jesus, this is exactly the kind of thing people call for on AH ("it's fine if they come here to work and contribute, etc."), but people are still twisting it into a "cheek of dem fordiners, comin over here and makin demands of us" case, though that's probably largely due to a very biased OP.

Thats not playing by the rules, thats hiding and then just pay a fine when you are caught. If that came in then whats the point of people going through the immigration process?

alastair

Boombastic wrote: »

I don't think I did,
You being pedantic about the word 'demand' when it is clearly in bolded letters in the Headline is 'missing the point'.

I can see it alright - I can just recognise that it's entirely disingenuous. If the OP couldn't - then their motives for repeating the claim are open to question.

alastair

Boombastic wrote: »

Fact is they are illegal in the country and have no right to work/live here.

You seem to choose to ignore that fact.

No-one is ignoring that fact - it's kinda bleedin' obvious.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats not playing by the rules, thats hiding and then just pay a fine when you are caught. If that came in then whats the point of people going through the immigration process?

What's the point in our president / dept of foreign affairs lobbying for exactly the same option for the Irish undocumented in the US then?

Hilly Bill

The King of Moo wrote: »

No, not "pay." "EARN."

They're obliged to work (contribute to the economy and help others make money), pay taxes (contribute to public finances) and contribute to the community (develop a more ineffable sense of togetherness and goodwill).

Irish citizens are not faced with such obligations. Anyone availing of such a scheme would be seeking a way to gain employment and contribute to society in a variety of ways without contributing to the black market.

I personally don't really care so much how someone got here. What I think is more important is that people coming here want to work hard and contribute in other non-economic ways too.

Have you missed the point that those that work here illegally are not paying tax and sending the money back home? That fact that they are here illegally means that they dont want to contribute and are giving the finger to the system.

VEN

look, let them stay, regardless of who they are, where they're from, don't bother paying the fine (sorry Enda). Tell them to bring their entire families over, forget the paper work, it will cost so much more on paper work than to deport them anyway, give them all a job with 1st preference regardless if it can be filled by a citizen or not, free english lessons, increase their hourly rate by €1 every year for 5 years to encourage them to stay. It all makes perfect sense.

Hilly Bill

Dirk Gently wrote: »

perhaps we should send them all home, and take back all the undocumented Irish living abroad. or maybe we should just STFU and realise we're a nation who migrates our young to other countries every generation.

Mainly legally .

alastair

VEN wrote: »

hehe you're as bad as SocSoc leaving out the essentials, Paying the fine, the fine. don't leave out the fine bit. If you don't pay the fine in order to move on to the next stage, you get to earn nothing. That is the important bit. Paying for residency.

As above - if you're not prepared to take a post as clearly articulated and intended - and would rather rail against your own inventions - why should anyone bother with you.

Again:

Pay the fine
Earn the residency

two distinct notions and acts.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

What's the point in our president / dept of foreign affairs lobbying for exactly the same option for the Irish undocumented in the US then?

No point at all as it stupid. Only 2 years ago they were deporting people and at the same time asking the US if the Irish illegals could stay.
It will never happen as if they allow the Irish then they might as well take down the fence that boarders with Mexico.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Have you missed the point that those that work here illegally are not paying tax and sending the money back home? That fact that they are here illegally means that they dont want to contribute and are giving the finger to the system.

That's why they're petitioning to do so eh?

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

[/B]

Mainly legally .

And immigrants here are mainly legal too - your point?

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No point at all as it stupid. Only 2 years ago they were deporting people and at the same time asking the US if the Irish illegals could stay.
It will never happen as if they allow the Irish then they might as well take down the fence that boarders with Mexico.

The Irish lobby is currently based on an arrangement that applies to undocumented Australians in the US - so it may not be quite as 'stupid' as you think - there's a precedent.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

That's why they're petitioning to do so eh?

They should have done that at the start by applying for a visa in the first place.
or leave when it ran out.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

The Irish lobby is currently based on an arrangement that applies to undocumented Australians in the US - so it may not be quite as 'stupid' as you think - there's a precedent.

How is applying for Irish Illegals to stay in those countries and at the same time deporting illegals from Ireland not stupid?

mickydoomsux

So, basically, people who have been living and working here illegally for X amount of years have decided they want to be citizens now and do everything on the up and up?

I wonder if that has to do with an increasingly competitive job markets for the type of jobs that the Irish would never dream of doing during the boom but are now doing out of necessity?

These illegal folks probably want to go legit to get on the benefits gravy train and i can hardly blame them.

Stinicker

two words: Deport them

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

And immigrants here are mainly legal too - your point?

Didnt say they wernt. Read the post i was replying to.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They should have done that at the start by applying for a visa in the first place.
or leave when it ran out.

It kind of undermines your suggestion that they don't want to go legit - when they're lobbying to do so.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Didnt say they wernt. Read the post i was replying to.

Again. What's your point?

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How is applying for Irish Illegals to stay in those countries and at the same time deporting illegals from Ireland not stupid?

That's presumably what the petitioners here believe - it would be a tad hypocritical of the government otherwise.

SocSocPol

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So, basically, people who have been living and working here illegally for X amount of years have decided they want to be citizens now and do everything on the up and up?

I wonder if that has to do with an increasingly competitive job markets for the type of jobs that the Irish would never dream of doing during the boom but are now doing out of necessity?

These illegal folks probably want to go legit to get on the benefits gravy train and i can hardly blame them.

Can you explain what that is? I don;t see any gravy train except for politicans and public servants.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

It kind of undermines your suggestion that they don't want to go legit - when they're lobbying to do so.

They didnt did they or they wouldnt be illegal.