Migrant workers demand new residency scheme

mickydoomsux

SocSocPol wrote: »

Can you explain what that is? I don;t see any gravy train except for politicans and public servants.

The myriad benefits that exist in this country that can put certain individuals in a position were they earn as much doing nothing as someone busting their balls working does.

A lot of these folks were/are earning about the same if not less than they'd get on the dole (they are here illegally, you don't need to even pay minimum wage) , why wouldn't they want to be entitled to what other citizens can get? As i've said before, i don't blame anyone in a low paying job for trying to milk our broken welfare system.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They didnt did they or they wouldnt be illegal.

THEY"RE LOBBYING TO GO LEGIT, PAY TAXES, ETC

How exactly does that imply that they 'dont want to contribute and are giving the finger to the system'?

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

That's presumably what the petitioners here believe - it would be a tad hypocritical of the government otherwise.

True, but until deportations stop then these lot havent a leg (or a visa ) to stand on.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

True, but until deportations stop then these lot havent a leg (or a visa ) to stand on.

Eh? The undocumented Irish in the US are also being deported when caught. Yet the only way to get to an amnesty or retrospective visa arrangement is to lobby while people are being deported. Same story here. You can't get there from anywhere but here.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

THEY"RE LOBBYING TO GO LEGIT, PAY TAXES, ETC

How exactly does that imply that they 'dont want to contribute and are giving the finger to the system'?

BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE ILLEGAL AND ONLY WANT TO BE BE LEGAL SO THEY CAN CLAIM THE DOLE.
Best thing for them to do is leave the country and apply through the proper channels like all the decent immigrants that have done so in the past.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

Eh? The undocumented Irish in the US are also being deported when caught. Yet the only way to get to an amnesty or retrospective visa arrangement is to lobby while people are being deported. Same story here. You can't get there from anywhere but here.

Good to hear.

mikemac1

Go legit, pay taxes, ask the employer to sort out PRSI and they'd be dropped instantly

Maybe they need to be careful what they wish for

An employer that wanted to pay cash in hand to the kitchen porter or the housekeeping staff or deli assistant isn't going to keep them on when they become more expensive

And then they are unemployed in Ireland with no records, no PRSI and the welfare office will not deal with them

What then?

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE ILLEGAL AND ONLY WANT TO BE BE LEGAL SO THEY CAN CLAIM THE DOLE.
Best thing for them to do is leave the country and apply through the proper channels like all the decent immigrants that have done so in the past.

They wouldn't be eligble for the dole - even if they got residency. Try again.

They're lobbying to go legit - and in doing so, work legally, pay taxes, and generally NOT give the finger to the system.

alastair

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The myriad benefits that exist in this country that can put certain individuals in a position were they earn as much doing nothing as someone busting their balls working does.

A lot of these folks were/are earning about the same if not less than they'd get on the dole (they are here illegally, you don't need to even pay minimum wage) , why wouldn't they want to be entitled to what other citizens can get? As i've said before, i don't blame anyone in a low paying job for trying to milk our broken welfare system.

They wouldn't be entitled to the dole. They wouldn't be citizens.

mickydoomsux

alastair wrote: »

They're lobbying to go legit - and in doing so, work legally, pay taxes, and generally NOT give the finger to the system.

Why didn't they do that in the first place so?

alastair

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Why didn't they do that in the first place so?

You'd need to ask them. Has anyone asked the undocumented Irish in the states why they didn't go legit to begin?

pm1977x

alastair wrote: »

I'm not seeing anything about 'demands'. It's a petition.
We were lobbying for an amnesty for the undocumented Irish in the US not too long ago. Same meal, different plate.

This! The hypocrisy of Irish being anti-immigrant is unreal

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

They wouldn't be eligble for the dole - even if they got residency. Try again.

They're lobbying to go legit - and in doing so, work legally, pay taxes, and generally NOT give the finger to the system.

If only if it was that straight forward. They are here illegally because they have something to hide. Do you know much about all the illegals here? are they all of good conduct?

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If only if it was that straight forward. They are here illegally because they have something to hide. Do you know much about all the illegals here? are they all of good conduct?

Are all the undocumented Irish in the states of good conduct? Have you any info on what they're hiding?

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

You'd need to ask them. Has anyone asked the undocumented Irish in the states why they didn't go legit to begin?

Ye, my mate jeff asked once but they didnt want to talk to him.

SocSocPol

Hilly Bill wrote: »

BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE ILLEGAL AND ONLY WANT TO BE BE LEGAL SO THEY CAN CLAIM THE DOLE.
Best thing for them to do is leave the country and apply through the proper channels like all the decent immigrants that have done so in the past.

Any evidence for that claim,you do understand what "evidence" is I presume

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

Are all the undocumented Irish in the states of good conduct? Have you any info on what they're hiding?

Thats the US problem , if they are no good then hope they stay there.

Hilly Bill

SocSocPol wrote: »

Any evidence for that claim,you do understand what "evidence" is I presume

Have you anything to prove that they wont?

wendell borton

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Basically they want anyone who has got away with living here illegally for five years to be given the right to stay. Its stupid.

It works both ways, they were also being employed here illegally in the first place, the employer should be punished not the worker.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

They wouldn't be entitled to the dole. They wouldn't be citizens.

explain.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats the US problem , if they are no good then hope they stay there.

In other words - you're simply spouting guff. Glad you cleared that up. I was getting all excited about what was being 'hidden'.

Hilly Bill

wendell borton wrote: »

It works both ways, they were also being employed here illegally in the first place, the employer should be punished not the worker.

Agree, fine the employer and deport any illegals found.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

In other words - you're simply spouting guff. Glad you cleared that up. I was getting all excited about what was being 'hidden'.

You havent made one valid point as to why any illegal immigrants should not be deported.

mikemac1

alastair wrote: »

Are all the undocumented Irish in the states of good conduct?

alastair wrote: »

Has anyone asked the undocumented Irish in the states why they didn't go legit to begin?

alastair wrote: »

Eh? The undocumented Irish in the US are also being deported when caught.

alastair wrote: »

The Irish lobby

I've didn't quote all of your points, just getting the part of the Irish in the USA

What has the USA got to do with us?

How about the USA worry over their own policies and we will do the same here.

If Shatter or Gilmore or some other minister wants to change policies or do something about deportations the decision can be made

What the USA decide to do is their own concern

SocSocPol

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Have you anything to prove that they wont?

I dont need evidence, you're the one spouting garbage , back it up or withdraw it. Dont state those things as fact that are merley your deluded and xenophobically irrational opinions.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

explain.

They wouldn't have permanent residency status, and they obviously wouldn't be EU citizens, so the only way they would qualify for the dole would be a being habitually resident on a legal visa. But they wouldn't start to qualify for habitual residence until they went legit and were granted a visa - and then it normally takes two years before you can actually claim welfare on that basis. If they went on to achieve permanent residency status, they would, but that would also obviously involve years of working beforehand.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You havent made one valid point as to why any illegal immigrants should not be deported.

That's good - because I never claimed to.

alastair

mikemac1 wrote: »

I've didn't quote all of your points, just getting the part of the Irish in the USA

What has the USA got to do with us?

How about the USA worry over their own policies and we will do the same here.

If Shatter or Gilmore or some other minister wants to change policies or do something about deportations the decision can be made

What the USA decide to do is their own concern

It has a bearing because (Irish) government policy in relation to illegal immigrants is clear enough regarding the Irish in the US, and therefore should have some impact on their attitude to this petition for illegals here.

VEN

SocSocPol wrote: »

I dont need evidence

i can't believe what i'm reading. what happened?

blackdog2

No matter what arguments are put forward, this undermines the whole point of visas and naturalisation, and makes a mockery of those who actually apply through legitimate channels.

We have the rule of law here. we shouldn't ignore it just because a group of society wants to. It is there for a reason

alastair

blackdog2 wrote: »

No matter what arguments are put forward, this undermines the whole point of visas and naturalisation, and makes a mockery of those who actually apply through legitimate channels.

We have the rule of law here. we shouldn't ignore it just because a group of society wants to. It is there for a reason

They've a rule of law in the States too.

Sappa

alastair wrote: »

blackdog2 wrote: »

No matter what arguments are put forward, this undermines the whole point of visas and naturalisation, and makes a mockery of those who actually apply through legitimate channels.

We have the rule of law here. we shouldn't ignore it just because a group of society wants to. It is there for a reason

They've a rule of law in the States too.

Were not in the states we are in Ireland laddie and we govern ourselves with our own rules and regulations,they are there for a very good reason.

hawkelady

alastair wrote: »

blackdog2 wrote: »

No matter what arguments are put forward, this undermines the whole point of visas and naturalisation, and makes a mockery of those who actually apply through legitimate channels.

We have the rule of law here. we shouldn't ignore it just because a group of society wants to. It is there for a reason

They've a rule of law in the States too.

Can you concentrate on staying on topic and stop spouting on about the bloody states!! My opinion is that if the sneaked into the country why on gods earth should we reward them?? Let the apply through the proper channels and if they fail so be it.
It would be great to have a pole on the issue !!

blackdog2

alastair wrote: »

They've a rule of law in the States too.

And let them deal with it, as we deal with ours.

Why didn't those concerned apply through the legal route? All of the requirements in the visa application processes are there for a reason - to aid the migrant when they arrive on our shores. If they are fleeing a humanitarian crisis then refugee status exists. If the migrant doesn't fall into either category, they have no business being here.

alastair

Sappa wrote: »

Were not in the states we are in Ireland laddie and we govern ourselves with our own rules and regulations,they are there for a very good reason.

I don't think you quite get the point. Our government is lobbying for a change in US law to allow for the legalisation of undocumented Irish there. That's the same government that is now being lobbied by a group for much the same arrangement here. If we believe that the Irish government has a right to lobby for legal change in the US, what possible objection could you have for the same lobbying process domestically?

alastair

hawkelady wrote: »

Can you concentrate on staying on topic and stop spouting on about the bloody states!!

I'm entirely on topic. The state lobbying for legalisation of illegal immigrants is being lobbied for legalisation of illegal immigrants.

alastair

blackdog2 wrote: »

And let them deal with it, as we deal with ours.

Why didn't those concerned apply through the legal route? All of the requirements in the visa application processes are there for a reason - to aid the migrant when they arrive on our shores. If they are fleeing a humanitarian crisis then refugee status exists. If the migrant doesn't fall into either category, they have no business being here.

They're illegal economic migrants - just like our undocumented in the US.

hawkelady

alastair wrote: »

I'm entirely on topic. The state lobbying for legalisation of illegal immigrants is being lobbied for legalisation of illegal immigrants.[/Quote]

Wow, fond of Tongue twisters i see.

shruikan2553

You apply to enter the country and work, if you allow people to sneak in and then say "well you're here now so you might as well stay" then why would someone apply legally?
Giving them a few months to come forward and then kicking out anyone that didn't is more than they deserve. Us doing it to the US is no excuse, they should be kicked out too. Should we allow someone who broke into a house to steal off if they come forward?

blackdog2

alastair wrote: »

They're illegal economic migrants - just like our undocumented in the US.

Yes, I am aware of that. However, I don't support them in either country, and your repeated bleatings don't make me feel any kind of guilt about the situation. If the United States feel that our migrants are worth keeping, or should be round ed up and sent back, that is their choice as it is their land. Other than efforts to buy votes and goodwill, I don't think the American government gives two figs what the undocumented Irish think over there.

I do find it interesting in what this means for the government. They are damned either way : they will be deemed hypocrites if they don't grant them amnesty, and they will be lambasted for making a mockery of INIS (or is it GNIB? I can never get my head around this) if they reward criminal behavior with something which is impossible for most, and costs a lot of money and at least 5 years for the rest! Not that the current government has covered themselves in glory, nor the ones before them... in fact, has any Irish government?

blackdog2

alastair wrote: »

I'm entirely on topic. The state lobbying for legalisation of illegal immigrants is being lobbied for legalisation of illegal immigrants.

Good god that is some tonguetwister!

woodoo

I think we should be sending any illegals back to their home countries. I support legal visas to this country only. Anyone that refuses to identify their correct place and date of birth should be put in jail.

Hilly Bill

SocSocPol wrote: »

I dont need evidence, you're the one spouting garbage , back it up or withdraw it. Dont state those things as fact that are merley your deluded and xenophobically irrational opinions.

How is it garbage? Dont be so naive.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

They wouldn't have permanent residency status, and they obviously wouldn't be EU citizens, so the only way they would qualify for the dole would be a being habitually resident on a legal visa. But they wouldn't start to qualify for habitual residence until they went legit and were granted a visa - and then it normally takes two years before you can actually claim welfare on that basis. If they went on to achieve permanent residency status, they would, but that would also obviously involve years of working beforehand.

Cant you see that the flood gates of illegals will open if you and your buddies get your way? If they fail to get in legally, all they have to do is get in illegally, dont get caught for a few years and the daft paddy will give them a visa anyway. Wake up man.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

That's good - because I never claimed to.

Then whats your point?

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

They've a rule of law in the States too.

So basically you dont really care about illegals here ,its just a ploy to get Irish Illegals to stay legally in the US, is that it?

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

I don't think you quite get the point. Our government is lobbying for a change in US law to allow for the legalisation of undocumented Irish there. That's the same government that is now being lobbied by a group for much the same arrangement here. If we believe that the Irish government has a right to lobby for legal change in the US, what possible objection could you have for the same lobbying process domestically?

Because its wrong .

R0ot

I don't think it's a great idea to encourage the idea if you hide out in a country long enough that you can then become a resident.

Hilly Bill

alastair wrote: »

I'm entirely on topic. The state lobbying for legalisation of illegal immigrants is being lobbied for legalisation of illegal immigrants.

The country is a laughing stock as it is without them wanting to make anyone that entered illegally, Legal just because they didnt catch them in time or because there are Irish Illegals in other countries.

Galwayguy35

alastair wrote: »

It has a bearing because (Irish) government policy in relation to illegal immigrants is clear enough regarding the Irish in the US, and therefore should have some impact on their attitude to this petition for illegals here.

There are approximately nine million illegals in the States, do you honestly think the US Government will change their laws just for maybe 100,000 Irish illegals?
And why should they, any illegal Irish should be deported and our Government should stop trying to get them a special deal and concentrate on what's going on here.
If the Government give in to this petition it just gives the impression of "ah sure you stayed on after your visa ran out but what harm we will fix it for you now and sure no harm done" and will give the impression that Irelands immigration laws are easy to get around (which IMO they are anyway).