Migrant workers demand new residency scheme

Nodin

Sappa wrote: »

Then can you give me a compelling point that these illegal immigrants should be allowed flaunt the immigration controls.

Some may have been here for decades, put down roots and contributed to the country.

IrishAm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Immigration controls enforce immigration restrictions. Immigration restrictions are there to treat the symptoms of regional poverty and the imbalance of wealth distribution world-wide.

I take it you don't believe in them so. What would happen if Europe abandoned all immigration controls in the morning?

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

No one would accept being turned down for a visa application to work in Dublin 4 because they come from Dublin 11. When you accept immigration controls as logical, you ignore the real issue.

No, no they wouldn't because Dublin is a city and neither Dublin 4 nor Dublin 11 are independent sovereign states.

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

I take it you don't believe in them so. What would happen if Europe abandoned all immigration controls in the morning?

...........

Well according to you and a few of your fellow travellers that's already happened, I thought.

fasttalkerchat

IrishAm wrote: »

I take it you don't believe in them so. What would happen if Europe abandoned all immigration controls in the morning?



No, no they wouldn't because Dublin is a city and neither Dublin 4 nor Dublin 11 are independent sovereign states.

Immigration controls are there to keep out anyone too dark or too poor. They do nothing to treat the problem of unfair distribution of wealth and should not be seen as achieving something by keeping people out.

National borders are not a problem when travelling across Europe so why elsewhere?

IrishAm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Immigration controls are there to keep out anyone too dark or too poor.

No they are not.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

They do nothing to treat the problem of unfair distribution of wealth and should not be seen as achieving something by keeping people out.

Neither does allowing inward immigration from the third world.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

National borders are not a problem when travelling across Europe so why elsewhere?

Not throughout Europe, just throughout EU member states.

Anyway, I fully believe these people will eventually get some sort of amnesty.

fasttalkerchat

Actually your video backed up my point. Border controls do not help or hinder and of those people represented by the gumballs. We continue to build walls to lock out the poor and pretend the problem doesn't exist.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

IrishAm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Actually your video backed up my point. Border controls do not help or hinder and of those people represented by the gumballs. We continue to build walls to lock out the poor and pretend the problem doesn't exist.

It doesn't back up your point.

But anyway, how many people from the third world should we allow in? 500,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? All of them?

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Where have i ever stated that I disagree with immigration controls and procedures?

You didn't. Hence the reason I asked.

Sappa

Nodin wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

Then can you give me a compelling point that these illegal immigrants should be allowed flaunt the immigration controls.

Some may have been here for decades, put down roots and contributed to the country.

Avoiding taxes,using public services,As they are illegal and not paying income tax or prsi.
Of they have roots here they should have gone about the legal immigration route,with a bit of foresight they knew exactly what they were doing.
I really hope they get no sort of amnesty as it is an insult to the legal migrants here who jumped through every hoop and obstacle to remain legit here.

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

It doesn't back up your point.

But anyway, how many people from the third world should we allow in? 500,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? All of them?

....

Sure you won't mind as long as they're white. Old Aussie won't mind as long as they aren't muslim, and Sappa won't mind as long as they aren't gay.

fasttalkerchat

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Immigration controls are there to keep out anyone too dark or too poor. They do nothing to treat the problem of unfair distribution of wealth and should not be seen as achieving something by keeping people out.

National borders are not a problem when travelling across Europe so why elsewhere?

So in your mind, everyone in the world should be able to move wherever they like? There aren't any, you know, small issues like making sure people who want to enter our country aren't criminals and have a reasonable chance of being able to support themselves without resorting to crime or bleeding the state dry? You don't think the island might not be able to support millions of people? Should they just keep coming until people start falling into the sea because there isn't enough space?

I think you'll find that European national borders aren't a problem for EU citizens who are travelling through, but that people who want to live there do have to jump through hoops, even Europeans. I also think you'll find that even countries where 'poor, dark' people live have immigration controls. I'm applying for a visa for a Latin American country and need to pay a fortune and have loads of documents checked. Why don't they just let me move there? I must be too white and middle class. :rolleyes:

fasttalkerchat

Trey Gifted Coroner wrote: »

So in your mind, everyone in the world should be able to move wherever they like? There aren't any, you know, small issues like making sure people who want to enter our country aren't criminals and have a reasonable chance of being able to support themselves without resorting to crime or bleeding the state dry? You don't think the island might not be able to support millions of people? Should they just keep coming until people start falling into the sea because there isn't enough space?

I think you'll find that European national borders aren't a problem for EU citizens who are travelling through, but that people who want to live there do have to jump through hoops, even Europeans. I also think you'll find that even countries where 'poor, dark' people live have immigration controls. I'm applying for a visa for a Latin American country and need to pay a fortune and have loads of documents checked. Why don't they just let me move there? I must be too white and middle class. :rolleyes:

Immigration controls and identity checking procedures are totally different things. Checking someones passport and criminal record on entering a country is totally different from saying, no one from Africa allowed here.

fasttalkerchat

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Immigration controls and identity checking procedures are totally different things. Checking someones passport and criminal record on entering a country is totally different from saying, no one from Africa allowed here.

Plenty of people from Africa are allowed into Ireland. No, not everyone is let in, just the same as the way plenty of white and English speaking people aren't let in. I know several Americans who weren't able to get visas.

IrishAm

Trey Gifted Coroner wrote: »

I know several Americans who weren't able to get visas.

An option for the government would be for them to offer American citizens unrestricted access to our labour market, universities and colleges in return for regularization of our illegals.

There are quite a few illegal Americans in Ireland, too.

Sappa

Nodin wrote: »

IrishAm wrote: »

It doesn't back up your point.

But anyway, how many people from the third world should we allow in? 500,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? All of them?

....

Sure you won't mind as long as they're white. Old Aussie won't mind as long as they aren't muslim, and Sappa won't mind as long as they aren't gay.

When you can't come up with any reason to allow these illegals legal status you resort to this,Nodin you are a spoofer mate.

Hilly Bill

Aquila wrote: »

They are human just like you and I.

They are not like me. Im here legally, they are not and deserve no sympathy.

Hilly Bill

hooradiation wrote: »

Yes, you will never say anything of substance.
That appears to be true.

Only because you fail to believe the truth that this idea is stupid.

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Only because you fail to believe the truth that this idea is stupid.

It's not, it's pretty sane and probably the best practical solution, but I'm sorry, you were busy being wrong and it was rude of me to interrupt.
Please, do carry on.

Hilly Bill

hooradiation wrote: »

It's not, it's pretty sane and probably the best practical solution, but I'm sorry, you were busy being wrong and it was rude of me to interrupt.
Please, do carry on.

Best for who? Those who chose to stay here illegally after visa expired? Those that came into the country in the back of a truck? those that are here on false passports? Best for you and your buddies?

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Best for who? Those who chose to stay here illegally after visa expired? Those that came into the country in the back of a truck? those that are here on false passports? Best for you and your buddies?

Yes.

Hilly Bill

Then thats one good reason why this idea should be binned. Be a good chap and close the door on the way out.

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Then thats one good reason why this idea should be binned. Be a good chap and close the door on the way out.

Well, if you're going to try and ask a such a stupid, leading question don't act so shocked when it's dismissed as such

IrishAm

Lads, it cost tens of thousands of euro to deport a person. These chaps will be getting an amnesty. No doubt about that.

But when they do become legalised, they will lose their unique selling point to employers. Their employer not having to follow employment law and minimum wage regulations.

Hilly Bill

hooradiation wrote: »

Well, if you're going to try and ask a such a stupid, leading question don't act so shocked when it's dismissed as such

Far from shocked . You have no argument .

VEN

IrishAm wrote: »

But when they do become legalised, they will lose their unique selling point to employers. Their employer not having to follow employment law and minimum wage regulations.

and expect calls for the minimum wage to go down a further €1 again . Restaurants will close, Cafés will close, tragic. No more cheap labour boo hoo

mikemac1

Gardaí maintain a missing persons list

http://www.garda.ie/MissingPersons/Default.aspx

Glance at a few pages and it's mainly Chinese type names, all very young, 18-23

From my non expert view most of them were students

As for where they have gone? I'd say there are either still here or gone to the UK working away

Some have been on that list for 5 years, garda resources being used to find people who don't want to be found

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Far from shocked . You have no argument .

if that makes you happy, then feel free to believe that.

Certainly, I imagine no matter how thoroughly it was explained to you, you'd insist there was "no argument". As far as you're concerned this isn't a matter of reason or facts, it's something you've decided and nothing is going to sway you from that.

VEN

Nodin wrote: »

Sure you won't mind as long as they're white. Old Aussie won't mind as long as they aren't muslim, and Sappa won't mind as long as they aren't gay.

and as long as there's only good looking single wimminz aged 18-35 with no kids

the perfect solution.

alastair

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that auld Alastair is an illegal immigrant !!
Why can I ask are you really pushing for this? And please dont reply with "sure aren't we fighting for the Irish iillegally in the states" crap.
I'm genuinely interest in why you have an agenda with this.

A. Maybe you should consider that you don't have to be an illegal immigrant to see there might be merit to the proposition? Crazy thought I know!

B. I'm open to hearing the specifics of the proposal, and the pros and cons. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

C. I've no 'agenda' - other than not being interested in kneeejerk reactions.

Hilly Bill

hooradiation wrote: »

if that makes you happy, then feel free to believe that.

Certainly, I imagine no matter how thoroughly it was explained to you, you'd insist there was "no argument". As far as you're concerned this isn't a matter of reason or facts, it's something you've decided and nothing is going to sway you from that.

You havent explain anything thoroughly though have you.

You are right , nothing is going to change my view as its the right one. You are the same with your view.

alastair

El Tarangu wrote: »

There's one point that I don't believe has been raised yet:

If such an amnesty was brought in, and an undocumented migrant applied for status but was refused, on whatever grounds, they would be unlikely to say "Fair cop, guv", and leave as required. Given the fact that they have already shown themselves willing to disobey the laws of the land, they would likely remain here illegally.

Every undocumented migrant in Ireland made the conscientious decision to break the law, by entering the country illegally, or overstaying a student visa, or whatever. Such behaviour should not be endorsed by the authorities.

Maybe you missed the bit about the fine? That's not much of an endorsement.

Some people might try and go back under cover if they were unsuccessful in their application, but so what? They're here already - it's not like there's a down side.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Just because other countries have done it doesnt mean Ireland has too.

It does rather undermine the notion that we're a laughing stock all the same. Or that we would a bigger laughing stock for considering a visa arrangement for illegals.

alastair

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Whats next from the looneys "Hug an illegal immigrant day " ?

Established your level clearly enough there.
Note - not to bother.

alastair

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Can you not get it into your head that it would be seen as rewarding people who broke the law.

You seem to be mentioning the US a lot so then I would assume you are aware that any illegal in the same situation as those over here would find themselves deported pronto if discovered.

And?

The whole 'illegal' moniker kinda gives the game away somewhat, wouldn't you say?

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You havent explain anything thoroughly though have you.

Given that you've got no interest in hearing anything that isn't backslapping congratulations for your terrible opinions, I am not exactly seeing why i should indulge you.

I mean, your mind is already made up isn't it, boy.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You are right , nothing is going to change my view as its the right one..

See.

Galwayguy35

alastair wrote: »

And?

The whole 'illegal' moniker kinda gives the game away somewhat, wouldn't you say?

So you agree with me then that it was right to deport the illegals?
Good to see you coming on board.

alastair

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So you agree with me then that it was right to deport the illegals?
Good to see you coming on board.

Oh, I see what you're doing there. Very clever. :rolleyes:

Illegal immigrants caught by the authorities in most jurisdictions are likely to be deported, or at a minimum, run the risk. That's not really news to anyone, and doesn't have anything to do with either the lobby to organise retrospective visas for the undocumented Irish in the US or visas for the undocumented here.

Galwayguy35

alastair wrote: »

Oh, I see what you're doing there. Very clever. :rolleyes:

Illegal immigrants caught by the authorities in most jurisdictions are likely to be deported, or at a minimum, run the risk. That's not really news to anyone, and doesn't have anything to do with either the lobby to organise retrospective visas for the undocumented Irish in the US or visas for the undocumented here.

I think the Government know they might as well be whistling in the wind as asking the US Government to make a special case for the Irish over there.

I think you might agree with me on this that if the at most 100,000 illegal Irish were given special treatment then there would be uproar.

Hilly Bill

hooradiation wrote: »

Given that you've got no interest in hearing anything that isn't backslapping congratulations for your terrible opinions, I am not exactly seeing why i should indulge you.

I mean, your mind is already made up isn't it, boy.




See.

You wont indulge as you havent a clue what you are going on about. How is not agreeing to illegal immigrants getting the right to stay a terrible opinion?
Personally i think you are only spoofing to be honest just to get a reaction and that you have no real say in the matter seeing that you havent posted any real opinion on the issue.

IrishAm

The Greeks are showing the rest of the western world how its done.

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Authorities in Greece are rounding up thousands of suspected illegal immigrants in a large-scale deportation drive to combat what a government official compared to a prehistoric invasion.

Greece has long been Europe's main entry point for illegal immigrants from Asia and Africa seeking a better life in the West. But Greece's severe economic problems and high unemployment are making the problem worse than ever.

Police said Monday that 6,000 people were detained over the weekend in Athens in a massive operation incongruously named after the ancient Greek god of hospitality, Zeus Xenios.

http://news.findlaw.com/apnews/17534292aee440dba0e6de1636a6be7a

strobe

I believe that there should be free movement within the UN whereby anyone can travel to, live in, and work in any member nation and be entitled to the same rights as a citizen of that nation whilst there.

IrishAm

strobe wrote: »

I believe that there should be free movement within the UN whereby anyone can travel to, live in, and work in any member nation and be entitled to the same rights as a citizen of that nation whilst there.

The UN consists of 193 sovereign states. Only 13 states are not members.

So, I take it you do not believe in border controls or citizenship?

Wow. Just wow.

fasttalkerchat

strobe wrote: »

I believe that there should be free movement within the UN whereby anyone can travel to, live in, and work in any member nation and be entitled to the same rights as a citizen of that nation whilst there.

Why just within the UN? I don't see any reason for for borders anywhere?

Why not have a government elected to take care of anyone within their region (country) they take the good with the bad. Resource poor areas have fewer people to support and focus only on industries that make sense to have there, rich areas have a bigger population in that area.

IrishAm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Why just within the UN? I don't see any reason for for borders anywhere?
Resource poor areas have fewer people to support and focus only on industries that make sense to have there, rich areas have a bigger population in that area.

Europe is the most resource poor continent on the planet. Africa the opposite.

Make of that what you will.

hooradiation

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You wont indulge as you havent a clue what you are going on about. How is not agreeing to illegal immigrants getting the right to stay a terrible opinion?

Because it's an amazingly simplistic outlook.
It seems to imagine a world where both perfect border controls are possible. And paradoxically that it's preferable to maintain what is effectively a shadow labour market.

Given that we can neither stop illegal immigration from occurring nor can we "clamp down" in the manner people would like, at least not without massive increase in manpower and significant changes in our laws. We'd effectively need some kind of national ID system - something we don't seem to care for if another recent thread on here is anything to go by.
And there's the problems of racial profiling that comes with that kind of system but I digress.

Anyway given the above instead of simply ignoring the problem, save for the usual suspects bemoaning phenomenons they don't understand, it makes more sense both financially and practically to offer a method for long term illegal immigrants to 'go legit'.
By offering a method of gaining residency (and residency is not citizenship, lest you forget) we can have these people pay taxes (a minor win for the state) and by making them not fear the authorities making it possible to remove the leverage less than scrupulous types would have over them (a win for everyone, pretty much).

It's the most rational solution, regardless of how much of the above you'll attempt to bat away with yet another trite and worthless soundbite.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Personally i think you are only spoofing to be honest just to get a reaction and that you have no real say in the matter seeing that you havent posted any real opinion on the issue.

Well, of course you do.
Heaven forbid that people actually disagree with your poorly reasoned opinion. That's impossible so they clearly must be "spoofing".

*slow clap*

IrishAm

hooradiation wrote: »

Given that we can neither stop illegal immigration from occurring nor can we "clamp down" in the manner people would like, at least not without massive increase in manpower and significant changes in our laws..

Of course we can. Create an All Ireland immigration force, implement legislation that gives labour inspectors more power and jail employers whom hire illegals.

hooradiation wrote: »

We'd effectively need some kind of national ID system - something we don't seem to care for if another recent thread on here is anything to go by.

Badly needed as is. It would clamp down on welfare abuse and numerous other things, too. Mostly by Irish citizens.

hooradiation wrote: »

And there's the problems of racial profiling that comes with that kind of system but I digress.

So?

alastair

IrishAm wrote: »

Originally Posted by hooradiation wrote:

Given that we can neither stop illegal immigration from occurring nor can we "clamp down" in the manner people would like, at least not without massive increase in manpower and significant changes in our laws.

Of course we can. Create an All Ireland immigration force, implement legislation that gives labour inspectors more power and jail employers whom hire illegals.

So - that would be 'with massive increase in manpower and significant changes in our laws'?

IrishAm

alastair wrote: »

So - that would be 'with massive increase in manpower and significant changes in our laws'?

Fund it from the fines the rogue employers pick up and from the seized assets of the illegals.

alastair

IrishAm wrote: »

Fund it from the fines the rogue employers pick up and from the seized assets of the illegals.

That would be a 'yes' then?

steel header

As a Irish citizen living in the US, I'm curious as to what the benefits of being an illegal immigrant in Ireland are. I mean why choose Ireland?

I left home in the late 80's after I finished secondary school. At that time the government were handing out leaflets to students leaving school on how to survive when abroad as an immigrant. That was Brian Lenihan's gift to us. We were encouraged to get out....legally or otherwise, made no difference.

As for those at home saying deport the US Irish that are living illegally here...where have you ever been? ******* mommy's boys.