Annoyed to see my niece/nephews being brainwashed in Catholic education

Freiheit

Saw drawings my niece made the other day about Jesus,I feel really annoyed that so many children,most children today are still being brainwashed in the fictional charachter of Jesus (no evidence he even existed),when will it ever change? I know Ruari Quinn wants a more secular education system but even that will only be about a quarter of schools. I feel annoyed that so much time is being wasted on this ancient myth which has no relevance to the world. Much of my formative years were wasted and it's still going on.

How many parents believe Jesus was the saviour,yet most children are being brainwashed in all that tripe.

Just wanted to air that. If anyone relates well hearing from like minds is always welcome!

Sound of Silence

It's a Catholic School.

You honestly didn't think that they would be learning about Christianity in Religious Studies.

Having went to both a Catholic Primary and Secondary School, I can assure you that I experienced very little brainwashing.

I'm not even sure how it would've manifested itself, other than having to endure boring R.E. classes.

tfitzgerald

Op that's a lovely little rant you had their. Now that you got all that guff off your chest I hope you feel better


Ps God bless you

magicbastarder

Freiheit wrote: »

the fictional charachter of Jesus (no evidence he even existed)

there is; there was a good post about this on a different thread recently.

dahamsta

Of course he existed, you can't have a nonsense religion without an L. Ron Hubbard.

Dades

Look, it's a head-wreck and very frustrating. I feel it intensely as I have two young kids and see how trusting they are, and how capable they are of learning what they're taught.

Today, with the help of the amazing Solar Walk app on the iPad, my soon-to-be-four year old and I learned about the planets that circle around the sun, which of them are hot, which are cold, and why. She now knows more than her mother about the solar system.

And when she goes to school in a year, she's going to be taught that a man in the sky made everything, watches us, and likes us to worship him and pray and sing songs about him.

You can't 'help' other people's kids, only your own. And know that slowly, but surely, the RC is dying out - in this country at least.

Northclare

Why are you so annoyed about your niece/nephews being.brainwashed in Catholic education.

My son is going to a catholic school,he will make up his own mind whether he wants to believe it or not.

After all their not your kids are they.

Iv a friend who is a solicitor and she works in family law and the amount of tossers who try to stop their kids from taking sacraments with the rest of the kids in class is sad really,grumpy single dads trying to ruin their kids day by bringing mummy to court for making the kids believe in God,daddy getting back at mummy come on most of us are adults and we made a decision whether to believe or not believe,let them be kids ffs

The kids and not their parents should make that decision,most kids just want a day out make loads of money and some of the parents use it as an excuse for a good old piss up.

For your own sake your better off staying out of it, your siblings might not appreciate your input to the way they bring up their children.

There's schools in Clare called educate together which are non denomination,some of my non religious or spiritual friends send their kids there.

It might be a good day out

johnnyskeleton

I once heard a good explanation as to why people should continue to lie to their children about

santa not being real

. The same applies I should think to organised religion.

Basically, by questioning, analysing and ultimately disbelieving in what their parents, their teachers and society tell them, they are taking their first steps to critical thought.

So if a child grows up hearing about christianity, starts to question it and ultimately rejects it, then it is part of that person's road to self fulfilment. Of course, they may not want to do that, preferring instead to believe despite their doubts and more power to them.

Think about it another way, if your child went to an atheist school where he/she was taught that there is no such thing as god, your christian brother/sister might feel that the school is brainwashing your child.

speaking

Dades wrote: »

Today, with the help of the amazing Solar Walk app on the iPad, my soon-to-be-four year old and I learned about the planets that circle around the sun, which of them are hot, which are cold, and why. She now knows more than her mother about the solar system.

Ah she is only four................pushy parenting:).............. and undermining her mother at the same time. Brilliant.

Its good to see though that you are imbuing her with your good solid scientific understanding and values at such an early age.

pwurple

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Basically, by questioning, analysing and ultimately disbelieving in what their parents, their teachers and society tell them, they are taking their first steps to critical thought.

Excellent comment, couldn't have put it better. It is one of the best ways to become a critical thinker, which applies to everything we encounter. Whether it be accepted current science, religion, homeopathy, politics, etc. And if they do accept it, they instead get the comfort of faith which helps with bereavment. Win win.

People vastly underestimate children's understanding. They are young, not stupid.

paddyandy

I wish i could get a faster brainwash myself with all the muck it's picked up over the years .It's ongoing but it's too slow .I miss my innocence a lot and i picked up a lot of filth from the 'broad-minded batallions' too .

Nodin

paddyandy wrote: »

I wish i could get a faster brainwash myself with all the muck it's picked up over the years .It's ongoing but it's too slow .I miss my innocence a lot and i picked up a lot of filth from the 'broad-minded batallions' too .

Would you care to elaborate on that somewhat cryptic post...?

Liamario

Never spent much time drawing pictures of Jesus in any of my catholic schools to be honest.
Now that I think about religion in secondary school, I have absolutely no idea what went on in that class. In fact I have absolutely no recollection of what we were thought at all there?!

Sweet Jeebus, I think I've completely wiped all indoctrination out of my system!

byhookorbycrook

It may annoy you, but if it is what the parents want, what can you do?

Liamario

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

It may annoy you, but if it is what the parents want, what can you do?

Can't really do anything. I don't think he/she was looking for suggestions though.

Dades

@Northclare: It's a different scenario when you've got two parents battling it out over a child. Obviously, that is a terrible situation. What the OP is about is the principle of matter - i.e. that myths are taught to children as facts. I think it's muddying the issue bringing up broken family scenarios.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So if a child grows up hearing about christianity, starts to question it and ultimately rejects it, then it is part of that person's road to self fulfilment. Of course, they may not want to do that, preferring instead to believe despite their doubts and more power to them.

This reminds me of the notion of having your faith "tested" in Christianity. I completely disagree that kids need to be taught religion to have them learn sceptisim. There's too much of an attrition rate that they never see through it, for a start. Sure why not spend 12 years telling them L. Ron Hubbard's writings are true if it's good for kids scepticism?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Think about it another way, if your child went to an atheist school where he/she was taught that there is no such thing as god, your christian brother/sister might feel that the school is brainwashing your child.

Nobody wants an atheist school (whatever that is). Just a school where they teach you facts and art and scientific theories. What kids parents want to convey in matters of religion is up to them.

UDP

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I once heard a good explanation as to why people should continue to lie to their children about

santa not being real

. The same applies I should think to organised religion.

Basically, by questioning, analysing and ultimately disbelieving in what their parents, their teachers and society tell them, they are taking their first steps to critical thought.

So if a child grows up hearing about christianity, starts to question it and ultimately rejects it, then it is part of that person's road to self fulfilment. Of course, they may not want to do that, preferring instead to believe despite their doubts and more power to them.

Think about it another way, if your child went to an atheist school where he/she was taught that there is no such thing as god, your christian brother/sister might feel that the school is brainwashing your child.

the big difference between the santa analogy and religion is that parents tend to back off more and more from saying santa is real the older the child gets (7+) whereas the child is being told god etc is real all the way through their teens too and it is taken much more seriously i.e a completely different level of force behind the lie. How many adults do you see insisting that there is a santa to their teen children. This is what makes the the religion lies harder to break from.

Also I don't think there are many atheists who would want schools to teach kids that there is no god. I know I would just want a school that does not teach that there is one as a matter of fact.

Nodin

Liamario wrote: »

Never spent much time drawing pictures of Jesus in any of my catholic schools to be honest.
......

I found one of my old books from 5th or 6th class. Anyone shown in a beard and/or in a cell had graffiti placed identifying him as either being "on the blanket" or Bobby Sands.

newmug

You are annoyed at kids getting a Catholic education. Ok, let me see. You are annoyed that they are taught:

1. that its wrong to kill
2. that its wrong to steal
3. that its wrong to lie
4. They are taught... around the model of the family unit
5. They are taught... sexual morals in secondary school
6. They are taught.... that there are more important things in life than instant gratification and self-fulfilling persuits
7. to have an open mind about what exists in the natural universe, and what may exist super-naturally
8. They are taught... all this on the understanding that a God exists, and his name is Jesus Christ - they are not forced to believe this.

Secular or Catholic, thats a pretty good foundation for anybody inlife if you ask me.

Dades

newmug wrote: »

Secular or Catholic, thats a pretty good foundation for anybody inlife if you ask me.

You think the catholic church has earned itself the right to teach kids about family units or sexual morals?

I'm also unsure about what you consider a "forced" belief. If something is taught as FACT to a child how could it be anything else? Catholic schools - and mine was pretty relaxed - do not encourage free-thinking.

That said, there were priests in my day. Maybe the next generation will have closet non-believers running RE classes.

Newaglish

newmug wrote: »

...to have an open mind about what exists in the natural universe, and what may exist super-naturally
They are taught... all this on the understanding that a God exists, and his name is Jesus Christ

You don't see a contradiction here?

gcgirl

Northclare wrote: »

Why are you so annoyed about your niece/nephews being.brainwashed in Catholic education.

My son is going to a catholic school,he will make up his own mind whether he wants to believe it or not.

After all their not your kids are they.

Iv a friend who is a solicitor and she works in family law and the amount of tossers who try to stop their kids from taking sacraments with the rest of the kids in class is sad really,grumpy single dads trying to ruin their kids day by bringing mummy to court for making the kids believe in God,daddy getting back at mummy come on most of us are adults and we made a decision whether to believe or not believe,let them be kids ffs

The kids and not their parents should make that decision,most kids just want a day out make loads of money and some of the parents use it as an excuse for a good old piss up.

For your own sake your better off staying out of it, your siblings might not appreciate your input to the way they bring up their children.

There's schools in Clare called educate together which are non denomination,some of my non religious or spiritual friends send their kids there.

It might be a good day out

Kids should decide when they are 18 if they wanna be catholic Muslim or church of Britney, not before hand , if parents are not praticing Catholics its just hypocrisy

Corkfeen

newmug wrote: »

You are annoyed at kids getting a Catholic education. Ok, let me see. You are annoyed that they are taught:

1. that its wrong to kill
2. that its wrong to steal
3. that its wrong to lie
4. They are taught... around the model of the family unit
5. They are taught... sexual morals in secondary school
6. They are taught.... that there are more important things in life than instant gratification and self-fulfilling persuits
7. to have an open mind about what exists in the natural universe, and what may exist super-naturally
8. They are taught... all this on the understanding that a God exists, and his name is Jesus Christ - they are not forced to believe this.

Secular or Catholic, thats a pretty good foundation for anybody inlife if you ask me.

Wrong to kill, steal and lie are things that you do not need a Christian education for. Plus God is a genocidal maniac so it's similar to asking Patrick Bateman for advice.

There's a vast gap between my sexual morals and yours; I don't claim that masturbation or homosexuality will result in fire and brimstone. :pac: Plus,I was never actually taught these 'sexual morals' when I was in school. I was essentially told that you can have sex outside of wedlock but be sure to use contraceptives which is pretty good advice. I was perfectly aware of the Catholic definition of sexual morality but if a teacher ever attempted to teach that version, they'd be laughed out of the room.

I was taught that you should not doubt the existence of god or there'd be more brimstone, this occured from the age of four. So that can easily be construed as brainwashing so that you wouldn't even consider doubting in later life.

In terms of accepting the supernatural in the natural world, I'd prefer to get those hours back. It would have been of far greater benefit to be dedicating that amount of time to science, maths or languages than making claims of the bible containing an absolute truth. I have no issue with children being taught about religions but feck, they wasted a lot of time in primary school on it. I'd actually be okay with the education system if there was a genuine choice.

Chuck Stone

newmug wrote: »

they are taught .. to have an open mind about what exists in the natural universe, and what may exist super-naturally

Making stuff up and selling it as a truth is not the way to achieve an 'open mind' - that's the path to psychological tyranny (he's watching you 24/7 and doesn't want you to touch your pee-pee).

An 'open mind' would be receptive to new ideas like two same sex people being allowed to have the same rights as everyone else.

TheChizler

I was asked to be my cousin's godfather before I ever gave the issue any considerable thought, so recently I've been buying books along the lines of the magic of reality as presents. Maybe consider exposing the child to things like this.

Northclare

gcgirl wrote: »

Northclare wrote: »

Why are you so annoyed about your niece/nephews being.brainwashed in Catholic education.

My son is going to a catholic school,he will make up his own mind whether he wants to believe it or not.

After all their not your kids are they.

Iv a friend who is a solicitor and she works in family law and the amount of tossers who try to stop their kids from taking sacraments with the rest of the kids in class is sad really,grumpy single dads trying to ruin their kids day by bringing mummy to court for making the kids believe in God,daddy getting back at mummy come on most of us are adults and we made a decision whether to believe or not believe,let them be kids ffs

The kids and not their parents should make that decision,most kids just want a day out make loads of money and some of the parents use it as an excuse for a good old piss up.

For your own sake your better off staying out of it, your siblings might not appreciate your input to the way they bring up their children.

There's schools in Clare called educate together which are non denomination,some of my non religious or spiritual friends send their kids there.

It might be a good day out

Kids should decide when they are 18 if they wanna be catholic Muslim or church of Britney, not before hand , if parents are not praticing Catholics its just hypocrisy

Actually your right 18 might be better,I'm in my late 30s and still not sure of it all yet
According to some beliefs ill burn in hell anyway
So ill chill for now as ill be a long time dead

Church of Britney lol

Nice one

Wereghost

dahamsta wrote: »

Of course he existed, you can't have a nonsense religion without an L. Ron Hubbard.

That was probably Saul in this case, although unlike Hubbard it seems likely that Saul believed his own words.

Freiheit

The story of Abraham who was about to,on the orders of God ,kill his son, who cooked his virgin daughter,I remember being thought that as fact,what a terrible thing to be teaching children,talking snakes,burning bushes,the concept of sin,hell if you don't do what your told and the fact that there's no evidence at all for the existence of this guy called Jesus,time is being wasted teaching children lies. Sure a lot will awaken at some point later in their lives,like I did and maybe sooner,but why waste all the resources in this fairy tale for starters?. There can still be secular communion/confirmation like coming of age ceremonies.

Children don't need religion to be thought ethics,to love and social social responsibility. This God who kills his son is not a fit teacher.

Yes it is the principle,not whether the children are mine or my sisters. We are still living in a dark age.

dahamsta

Scrawny71 wrote:

That was probably Saul in this case, although unlike Hubbard it seems likely that Saul believed his own words.

I realise it started as a con, but I'd guess Hubbard believed more of his own bull as he went on. One of my friends in my teenage years was a total Mitty, came up with outlandish stuff like getting off with models and having a part share in the local airport. He believed every word of it though, wouldn't be shifted; and when he was caught out all you got was a sheepish grin before he moved onto the next line of nonsense. His nickname was actually Bullsh1t $urname.

People are weird in what they believe. Scientology is no more outlandish than christianity when you look at the details, while of course being utterly ridiculous nonsense that christians ridicule. If they could only see themselves through the eyes of a scientist. Or even a scientologist!

Bannasidhe

Dades wrote: »

That said, there were priests in my day. Maybe the next generation will have closet non-believers running RE classes.

I know for a fact those closet non-believers are already here. Now, all I and my son have to work out is how we can get my grandkids into the excellent school near us where a good friend of mine is an Atheist currently charged with taking the Communion class. Ironically the school knows she is a lesbian, and very prominent member of the LGBT caucus of the INTO, but are unaware of her complete lack of belief - they think she is just very á la carte.

Our main problem is the kids live with their mother some 120 km away...:(

Freiheit

yeah I'm sure a reasonable percentage of the teachers are non believers,yet they are imparting this gobeldie gook which they don't believe in and a lot of the parents don't believe in either,I'm surprised that more parents haven't openly objected to this,there's talk about the need for more honours maths and chinese,i don't hear much about all the time wasted teaching this fable,if it was presented as a fable it wouldn't be too bad but it's being thought as fact. It's insane.

M4TTH3W

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Op that's a lovely little rant you had their. Now that you got all that guff off your chest I hope you feel better


Ps God bless you

I get a little chuckle when the religious offer the blessings of god to those they know are of no belief. Way to take the low moral ground there fitz. Top comment!

byhookorbycrook

Northclare wrote: »

There's schools in Clare called educate together which are non denomination,some of my non religious or spiritual friends send their kids there.

It might be a good day out

Pointing out once more that ET schools and also while I am at it,and many Gaelscoileanna under Foras are multi-denom, not non-denom.

Yes, there are plenty teacher non-believers out there.

shruikan2553

It's not like people have much of a choice between Catholic and non Catholic schools in most of the country. My parents decided they would let me choose my own religion so I didn't do my communion or confirmation. Spent a year in primary school doing nothing thanks to it instead of maths, science, languages or anything else that involve education.
Despite being taught these things in school I didn't believe them, maybe it was because I wasn't taking part in the religious events like the others but I think it probably had more to do with my parents not telling me it was true, it was more "If you want to believe in it do, otherwise don't"
I believe teaching children about religion is wrong when you tell them this is how it is, all the others are wrong but I would prefer it if it was something left to the parents to teach and not the schools.

newmug

Dades wrote: »

You think the catholic church has earned itself the right to teach kids about family units or sexual morals?

I'm also unsure about what you consider a "forced" belief. If something is taught as FACT to a child how could it be anything else? Catholic schools - and mine was pretty relaxed - do not encourage free-thinking.

Newaglish wrote: »

You don't see a contradiction here?

Corkfeen wrote: »

Wrong to kill, steal and lie are things that you do not need a Christian education for. Plus God is a genocidal maniac so it's similar to asking Patrick Bateman for advice.

There's a vast gap between my sexual morals and yours; I don't claim that masturbation or homosexuality will result in fire and brimstone. :pac: Plus,I was never actually taught these 'sexual morals' when I was in school. I was essentially told that you can have sex outside of wedlock but be sure to use contraceptives which is pretty good advice. I was perfectly aware of the Catholic definition of sexual morality but if a teacher ever attempted to teach that version, they'd be laughed out of the room.

I was taught that you should not doubt the existence of god or there'd be more brimstone, this occured from the age of four. So that can easily be construed as brainwashing so that you wouldn't even consider doubting in later life.

In terms of accepting the supernatural in the natural world, I'd prefer to get those hours back. It would have been of far greater benefit to be dedicating that amount of time to science, maths or languages than making claims of the bible containing an absolute truth. I have no issue with children being taught about religions but feck, they wasted a lot of time in primary school on it. I'd actually be okay with the education system if there was a genuine choice.

Freiheit wrote: »

The story of Abraham who was about to,on the orders of God ,kill his son, who cooked his virgin daughter,I remember being thought that as fact,what a terrible thing to be teaching children,talking snakes,burning bushes,the concept of sin,hell if you don't do what your told and the fact that there's no evidence at all for the existence of this guy called Jesus,time is being wasted teaching children lies. Sure a lot will awaken at some point later in their lives,like I did and maybe sooner,but why waste all the resources in this fairy tale for starters?. There can still be secular communion/confirmation like coming of age ceremonies.

Children don't need religion to be thought ethics,to love and social social responsibility. This God who kills his son is not a fit teacher.

Yes it is the principle,not whether the children are mine or my sisters. We are still living in a dark age.

dahamsta wrote: »

People are weird in what they believe. Scientology is no more outlandish than christianity when you look at the details, while of course being utterly ridiculous nonsense that christians ridicule. If they could only see themselves through the eyes of a scientist. Or even a scientologist!

Ignorance, ignorance ignorance. Why dont you people actually try real Christianity before you knock it? Because none of you are describing it accuratley.

And @ Dades, why shouldn't the 3 billion of us who try to be sexually moralistic teach that to others? Is it because of the 10 or so paedophiles who pretended to be Catholic, entering our ranks? How non-judgemental of you:rolleyes: Those peado's had more in common with you athiests than us Christians.

Sarky

Hurr!

doctoremma

newmug wrote: »

Those peado's had more in common with you athiests than us Christians.

Rather ironic (or just stupid?) that, to demonstrate commonality, you pick the very philosophical position that those pedos manifestly don't have in common with atheists.

Bannasidhe

doctoremma wrote: »

Rather ironic (or just stupid?) that, to demonstrate commonality, you pick the very philosophical position that those pedos manifestly don't have in common with atheists.

Arguing with Atheists 101 (Roman Catholic version).

1. Claim morality can only be learned/taught via Christianity.

2. Try and twist the proven existence of paedophiles within the Roman Catholic Church to place blame on Atheists/homosexuals/ anyone but the Roman Catholic Church.

3. Repeat Ad nauseam.

equivariant

newmug wrote: »

You are annoyed at kids getting a Catholic education. Ok, let me see. You are annoyed that they are taught:

1. that its wrong to kill
2. that its wrong to steal
3. that its wrong to lie
4. They are taught... around the model of the family unit
5. They are taught... sexual morals in secondary school
6. They are taught.... that there are more important things in life than instant gratification and self-fulfilling persuits
7. to have an open mind about what exists in the natural universe, and what may exist super-naturally
8. They are taught... all this on the understanding that a God exists, and his name is Jesus Christ - they are not forced to believe this.

Secular or Catholic, thats a pretty good foundation for anybody inlife if you ask me.

1 ... except when the sky fairy tells you to/is on your side/is a different sky fairy to the other guy's skyfairy

2 ... except if you are stealing children's innnocence or except if you are hoarding vast wealth in the name of some charlatan over in Rome. Take a look at the obscene wealth on display in the vatican and then tell me that the catholic church is against stealing

3 ... except when you wear a funny white collar and you are talking about pretty much any issue of social or cultural importance

4-8 are just so laughable that I won't even bother

newmug

God bless yiz all. You have it completely the wrong way around. I'll pray for you's.

newmug

would've thought trying to get into heaven was a bit of a self fulfilling pursuit

newmug wrote: »

God bless yiz all. You have it completely the wrong way around. I'll pray for you's.

"i don't have any argument so ill pretend to take the moral high ground"

off you go so

newmug

bluewolf wrote: »

"i don't have any argument so ill pretend to take the moral high ground"

off you go so

God bless you.

Corkfeen

newmug wrote: »

God bless yiz all. You have it completely the wrong way around. I'll pray for you's.

I'd really love to see you show the flaws in any of our points. I need some entertainment...

newmug

Corkfeen wrote: »

I'd really love to see you show the flaws in any of our points. I need some entertainment...

God bless you.

paddyandy

Try dr.raymond moody on utube for some sky fairy treatment .

Sarky

newmug wrote: »

God bless you.

I used to retreat into useless platitudes when I'd humiliated myself with shoddy arguments and outright insults too. Is there a club I can join?

Bannasidhe

newmug wrote: »

God bless yiz all. You have it completely the wrong way around. I'll pray for you's.

I'm afraid a facepalm is all I can offer you in return for your wasted prayers.

newmug

Sarky wrote: »

I used to retreat into useless platitudes when I'd humiliated myself with shoddy arguments and outright insults too. Is there a club I can join?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm afraid a facepalm is all I can offer you in return for your wasted prayers.

God bless both of you.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

I used to retreat into useless platitudes when I'd humiliated myself with shoddy arguments and outright insults too. Is there a club I can join?

http://www.vatican.va/

Freiheit

Which Jesus is that Newmug? the Jesus of 'Matthew' Mark' Luke' or John or of the nearly 100 Gospels excluded from the offical bibles?

doctoremma

newmug wrote: »

God bless both of you.

No wonder you're looking to get married without the State being part of it. A registrar might not consider you mature enough....