National Identity Card

WolfForager

So who here is for and against the introduction of a National ID card?

I can't really see any downsides to it and we're one of two countries in the EU who don't have one.

We could travel anywhere in the EU with a small card that fits in your wallet. I hate taking my passport anywhere as the odds of it falling out of your pocket or out of my bag are too damn high, especially in my extra paranoid mind on a day of travel.

The "National Age Card" system could be scrapped, alot handier in general for proving your over 18.

Now we don't need to go the route of what the UK were trying to do a few years ago with the bio-metric data and such. But it would be handy to have informations such as your DOB, address, blood type etc on it.

I haven't heard anything in the news about it in a long time, I think last year President Higgins was urging for the introduction of a National ID card as soon as possible, since then, not much. Has there been talk about it more recently that I've been missing?

What say you AH?

Mr. Manager

I can't see any cons to having one. It's such a simple thing that I think every coutnry should have.

Where I live people who have national ID cards get discounts on certain things like travel and health care. Stuff like that could be a good incentive to get one.

Stripey Cat

Some jumped up Garda demanding to "see my papers"? No thanks.

Unless you're saying it would be voluntary to carry it, in which case it would be pointless.

mattjack

I carry a doner card, handy for when I want kebab.

OU812

^ there's always one...

We should have had one by now, they'll probably mess up the implementation & yes it should be mandatory to carry & produce if requested.

It should be readable & also serve as driving licence etc

WolfForager

OU812 wrote: »

^ there's always one...

We should have had one by now, they'll probably mess up the implementation & yes it should be mandatory to carry & produce if requested.

It should be readable & also serve as driving licence etc

Actually didn't even think of that. Brilliant idea!

Mr. Manager

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Some jumped up Garda demanding to "see my papers"? No thanks.

Unless you're saying it would be voluntary to carry it, in which case it would be pointless.

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

mikemac1

I'm all for it if we can send the Corkonians back to where they belong

First Explorer

It could't hurt, I'd prefere a card to a passport it would stand a better chance of survival after a wash in the washing machine.

Colmustard

I have no qualms about having one, but I would paying for one.

I remember the British one was going to cost 60 pounds.

Eutow

We should have had one introduced years ago. Most other European countries have one. I'm currently living abroad and when I told one of my friends that Ireland does not have a national ID card he couldn't believe it. It would come in very useful because it means not having to carry a passport when you go out, particularly if you don't have a licence.

hoodwinked

i thought we were getting this in the form of a credit card like driving licence,

i was told they'd be in before this year is out!

mattjack

OU812 wrote: »

^ there's always one...

We should have had one by now, they'll probably mess up the implementation & yes it should be mandatory to carry & produce if requested.

It should be readable & also serve as driving licence etc

Indeed there is ' always one ' as you put it.
This being AH you may learn to expect a few more 'ones'.

As for a National ID card , I would be pretty impressed if we managed to conjure up an ID card that could work as a driving licence , student ID , travel pass, passport , RSI card etc ... in time we might manage it, though would we re issue every few years as people age etc.

I can see certain politicians eye's light up as they conjure up charges for it.

Who should or should not be allowed ask to see it ? I'd have no problem with a Garda , but there are people who I wouldn.t want to see it.

Stripey Cat

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

Do you really want to go over the "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" argument?

Privacy is not about hiding, it's about being able to live your life and go about your business without the assumption that some agent of the state can stop you and demand you prove you are who say you are.

Cool_CM

I don't see the point in not having them. Something that is universally accepted as a form of ID and in place of a passport within the Eu that everybody is issued when they reach a certain age which will fit in your wallet.
I really don't get the whole "infringing on personal liberty" argument.

endofrainbow

WolfForager wrote: »

So who here is for and against the introduction of a National ID card?

I can't really see any downsides to it and we're one of two countries in the EU who don't have one.

We could travel anywhere in the EU with a small card that fits in your wallet. I hate taking my passport anywhere as the odds of it falling out of your pocket or out of my bag are too damn high, especially in my extra paranoid mind on a day of travel.

The "National Age Card" system could be scrapped, alot handier in general for proving your over 18.

Now we don't need to go the route of what the UK were trying to do a few years ago with the bio-metric data and such. But it would be handy to have informations such as your DOB, address, blood type etc on it.

I haven't heard anything in the news about it in a long time, I think last year President Higgins was urging for the introduction of a National ID card as soon as possible, since then, not much. Has there been talk about it more recently that I've been missing?

What say you AH?

I wouldn't be in favour of my address being on it

opti76

i wouldnt be in favour of addresses being on it simply because id have had to have gotten mine replaced about 18 times by now.

ive lived in cork kerry tipp dublin and meath.

NegativeCreep

I'd be in favour of the National Identity card but I don't think the age card thing should be scrapped. I'm only after applying for the thing after a year of saying that I should probably apply for it. If they got rid of it now I'd go mad :L

dlofnep

If it was 20 or 30 euro, I'd get it. Anymore than that, no chance.

Katunga

if its free i'd have no problem with it.

K.Flyer

Personally I dont see anything wrong with it.
Most national id cards that I have seen have a photo, date of birth, nationality, and the equivelant of your pps number. Some even have a finger print.
Integrating it with your driving licence is a great idea which all motorists are obliged to carry nowadays anyway. However not sure if its practical as not everyone drives.

Herb Powell

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

Fucck that.

jumpguy

How is the issue of enforcing whether it's carried on your person enforced in other countries? I can see that being the major issue. As one above poster said, it'd be sort pointless if you didn't have to carry it with you and could just leave it in a drawer at home.

I'd say the most reasonable way of enforcing it would be that not having the ID card can only be charged in conjunction with some other offence (like public disorder and so on.)

Besides my ponderment on how best to enforce it, I don't see any problem with the concept, as long as it didn't cost over 25€ to buy. It could be extremely useful in so many regards, especially if it was electronic - storing health information in case of emergency hospitalisations, criminal records, driving certifications, and so on. If you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?

Mr. Manager

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Do you really want to go over the "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" argument?

Privacy is not about hiding, it's about being able to live your life and go about your business without the assumption that some agent of the state can stop you and demand you prove you are who say you are.

I don't mind going over the discussion, I've hours to kill and nothing to hide.

Before we go any further on this, what is the problem with a Guarda asking to see your identity?

Stripey Cat

Cool_CM wrote: »

I really don't get the whole "infringing on personal liberty" argument.

Privacy is important to some people. The right to walk around in your own country without having to explain yourself to anyone.

A law would have to back up an identity card making it compulsory to carry it, and show it to the police on request. Refusing to carry one or show one would have to made a criminal offence.

Would you really be happy to give the gardai this power? To demand the ID of Irish citizens in Ireland, on pain of arrest and prosecution?

That doesn't bother you even a little?

IvySlayer

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

Sorry to drag this off topic a bit, but if I didn't commit a crime then I don't have to give them anything.

Jesus Shaves

First Explorer wrote: »

It could't hurt, I'd prefere a card to a passport it would stand a better chance of survival after a wash in the washing machine.

I don't understand how anyone can put their passport in the washing machine, unless they're planning on sending their clothes out foreign

Mr. Manager

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Privacy is important to some people. The right to walk around in your own country without having to explain yourself to anyone.

A law would have to back up an identity card making it compulsory to carry it, and show it to the police on request. Refusing to carry one or show one would have to made a criminal offence.

Would you really be happy to give the gardai this power? To demand the ID of Irish citizens in Ireland, on pain of arrest and prosecution?

That doesn't bother you even a little?

Oh god forbid someone might ask you your name... what is the world coming to.



And to answer your question, no, it doesn't bother me. Not in the slightest.

Stripey Cat

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I don't mind going over the discussion, I've hours to kill and nothing to hide.

I bet you have some things you'd like to keep private, though.

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Before we go any further on this, what is the problem with a Guarda asking to see your identity?

As an Irish citizen, in Ireland, I don't currently have to prove my identity.

Can you explain why the law should be changed so I should have to?

Mr. Manager

IvySlayer wrote: »

Sorry to drag this off topic a bit, but if I didn't commit a crime then I don't have to give them anything.

So if you didn't commit a crime why would you not just show your ID card?

By not doing so you are only going to make both you and the officials day that bit longer.

Stripey Cat

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Oh god forbid someone might ask you your name... what is the world coming to.



And to answer your question, no, it doesn't bother me. Not in the slightest.

It bothers me. Why should I (and anyone else who doesn't want this) be forced to adopt it?

Mr. Manager

Stripey Cat wrote: »

I bet you have some things you'd like to keep private, though.




As an Irish citizen, in Ireland, I don't currently have to prove my identity.

Can you explain why the law should be changed so I should have to?

I already stated as above in my first post why I think it's a handy thing. I never mentioned the law being changed.

I have some things to keep private but my name certainly isn't one of them. Not if a Guarda asks me anyways.

IvySlayer

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

So if you didn't commit a crime why would you not just show your ID card?

By not doing so you are only going to make both you and the officials day that bit longer.

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

Anita Blow

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Before we go any further on this, what is the problem with a Guarda asking to see your identity?

There's nothing wrong with it.
Equally, there's nothing wrong with not answering if you don't want to.
The whole "If you've nothing to fear you've nothing to hide" argument is based on the false premise that people only keep things private because they've done something wrong.

I'm not against the introduction of a National ID but I don't think it should be compulsory to carry around. It'd be handy in place of a Garda ID or if a person wants to carry it abroad instead of a Passport.

Mr. Manager

IvySlayer wrote: »

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

Mr. Manager

Anita Blow wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with it.
Equally, there's nothing wrong with not answering if you don't want to.
The whole "If you've nothing to fear you've nothing to hide" argument is based on the false premise that people only keep things private because they've done something wrong.

I'm not against the introduction of a National ID but I don't think it should be compulsory to carry around. It'd be handy in place of a Garda ID or if a person wants to carry it abroad instead of a Passport.

I never said it had to be compulsory.

I've a National ID card but I don't have to carry it around.

IvySlayer

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

I've never dealt with them, but if I'm walking down the street and a Garda ask me to see I.D for no reason, I'll ask no thanks unless I thought he/she had a valid reason. That said, since never talking to one, I'll probably just get scared and do it

Mr. Manager

IvySlayer wrote: »

I've never dealt with them, but if I'm walking down the street and a Garda ask me to see I.D for no reason, I'll ask no thanks unless I thought he/she had a valid reason. That said, since never talking to one, I'll probably just get scared and do it

But this is my thing, why would a Guarda ask to see your ID for no reason? How would that benefit anyone? Unless you're a decent lookin lass and they wanted your full name to Facebook stalk you or something

I'd be a little peeved if I was asked to show it for no reason but for the sake or ruining my day, I'd just do it. What's the harm.

MadsL

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

Back in the days before EU membership, I was arrested in the Czech Republic for not having my ID. I was just walking around, and did a U turn in front of some cops (realised I was going the wrong way) and they caught up with me and asked me where I was going. Home, I said in Czech, without thinking. They caught my accent, and asked where I was from and for papers. As my passport was in my flat, and I had never met my landlord (paid him through post office) things got interesting.

It took me a week's wages (all the cash in my pocket) as a bribe to get out of that one.

Not in favour, far too many easy abuses.

Mr. Manager

MadsL wrote: »

Back in the days before EU membership, I was arrested in the Czech Republic for not having my ID....

Well to them that wasn't for no reason. Obviously it looked a little suspicious. Point proven why they asked for your ID...

bijapos

I'd be in favour of one, but it shouldn't be obligatory to carry it, and the Gardai shouldn't have the right to stop and demand one, unless you are under suspicion for having committed an offence.

I think it would have to have some sort of biometric check to prevent fraud when applying for one initially. They should be used to access any government service such as SW, health care etc, their introduction would save cash medium to long term on fraud and although there has been talk of this being introduced since around 1998 it is long overdue now.

It's still a bit crazy that in this day and age you have to take an ESB or other bill with you as proof of residency for so many basic services.

I understand the point of some people that they should have the right to walk the streets without being subject to a stop and produce by a Garda. I lived in Germany and France for a long time where it is obligatory to carry ID and some police officers abuse the system at their own leisure.

But it could be used to verify identity quickly, where necessary, all it sould require is that the person under suspicion gives a their name to a Garda and their ID card page could be called up quickly over the system. It could be linked up to PULSE and the courts system, but this will only work properly when the courts and policing system in this country start to run more efficiently which is a debate for another thread.

Snowie

First Explorer wrote: »

It could't hurt, I'd prefere a card to a passport it would stand a better chance of survival after a wash in the washing machine.

new pass ports are my 2012 has a plastic bit were all my personal information has been, printed like your picture is placed on...

Feathers

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

But this is my thing, why would a Guarda ask to see your ID for no reason? How would that benefit anyone?

Guardian article from 2010 states that in the UK, black people are seven times more likely to be stopped by the police than white people under their stop and search legislation (for which they have to suspect you of something to stop you to begin with).

So unless we take as true that black people are behaving more suspiciously than white people, you've got a good number of people from an ethnic minority background that are getting stopped for 'no reason'.

Mr. Manager

Feathers wrote: »

Guardian article from 2010 states that in the UK, black people are seven times more likely to be stopped by the police than white people under their stop and search legislation (for which they have to suspect you of something to stop you to begin with).

So unless we take as true that black people are behaving more suspiciously than white people, you've got a good number of people from an ethnic minority background that are getting stopped for 'no reason'.

Now you're going down a different, racial stereotyping, path.

Also, we're not the UK.

Feathers

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Now you're going down a different, racial stereotyping, path.

Also, we're not the UK.

Don't know about different path — racial stereotyping is one example of how people could be hassled by a law like this without doing anything wrong.

We're not the UK, but don't think it's unreasonable to draw a parallel with somewhere that has these types of laws at present. Or do you think that the Gardaí would act much better than the UK police if given power to demand ID?

Eve_Dublin

In an ideal world where police didn't abuse their position of power and European wasn't ruled by a bunch of cunts, I'd probably say "yes" but they do and I've seen it happen here with ID cards, so I'll say a big "no".

delad

IvySlayer wrote: »

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

Don't garda already have the power to ask you your name and address. If you don't give that info or give incorrect info then you are committing an offense. So what difference would this be?

When the garda swipe your national id card, they would only have access to information as to whether you have a valid driving license, and whether you are wanted for any crimes or have any fines outstanding. They would not have access to any other information on your card.

When you go to vote, the people at the voting station will only have access to information as to whether you have the right to vote when they swipe your card. Also by having the card you will be automatically registered to vote when you are the legal age, so no more having to fill out forms to register to vote!

When you go to collect your dole, the people there will only have info as to your eligibility for dole when they swipe your card.

When you're at the airport, security and check in will only have access to whether you have a valid passport and have a ticket for that flight, when they swipe your card.

So you see, there is no risk of any of these authorities getting any personal info that they have no business having. The card would only have your name, picture and date of birth printed on the front of it. All other info could only be accessed on readers which are restricted as to what info is needed by the authorities using them.

The card would just make all of our lives a lot, lot easier, and make life much much harder for criminals. Fraud such as dole fraud would be stamped out in an instant. People will no longer be able to get away with not paying taxes such as property tax, which will benefit all of us who are law abiding.

MadsL

delad wrote: »

Don't garda already have the power to ask you your name and address.

iirc, not without a reason. I believe you are not obliged to answer unless the member describes the Act under which it is being requested, ie: the Road Traffic Act describes the requirement to give a member your Driving Licence if requested.

keith16

WolfForager wrote: »

So who here is for and against the introduction of a National ID card?

I can't really see any downsides to it and we're one of two countries in the EU who don't have one.

We could travel anywhere in the EU with a small card that fits in your wallet. I hate taking my passport anywhere as the odds of it falling out of your pocket or out of my bag are too damn high, especially in my extra paranoid mind on a day of travel.

The "National Age Card" system could be scrapped, alot handier in general for proving your over 18.

Now we don't need to go the route of what the UK were trying to do a few years ago with the bio-metric data and such. But it would be handy to have informations such as your DOB, address, blood type etc on it.

I haven't heard anything in the news about it in a long time, I think last year President Higgins was urging for the introduction of a National ID card as soon as possible, since then, not much. Has there been talk about it more recently that I've been missing?

What say you AH?

You haven't convinced me it's necessary based on your points above which are;

- a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Very weak arguments IMO. What are the real tangible benefits of having them. And how do these compare to the cost of introducing and maintaining the system.

Personally I see no need for them.

Chloris

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm all for it if we can send the Corkonians back to where they belong

SocSocPol

keith16 wrote: »

You haven't convinced me it's necessary based on your points above which are;

- a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Very weak arguments IMO. What are the real tangible benefits of having them. And how do these compare to the cost of introducing and maintaining the system.

Personally I see no need for them.

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.