National Identity Card

Julius Seizure

Yeah, in Belgium they have it done really well, it's pretty much as good as the card in your passport and provided you fly air Lingus it's enough to fly on. They even have it so that if you want to book an SNCB ticket online you type in your personal number and it saves it to your card. Leap card alert?

But yeah, the teller in the bank couldnt come to terms with the fact Ireland doesn't have ID cards. She wanted more Id than just my passport and wanted the card. Me being a saoránigh I obviously didn't have one... Couldnt come to terms with it.

monkeypants

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

By not doing so you are only going to make both you and the officials day that bit longer.

Why's that then?

hatrickpatrick

You see, in ordinary circumstances it wouldn't be so bad. But we live in one of the worst cases of a "nanny state" in the Western world, and there is absolutely no possibility that such an ID card would not be used by the powers that be to further restrict our freedom.

BOHtox

Don't they have something like 49 different things on them.
Retina scans, fingerprints, security number, gps tracker etc.
All on one large government database.

two things.

Why do the government want 49 pieces of information on me?
I want to keep myself to myself thank you.

Secondly, what happens when someone hacks this centre?
Then anonymous or whoever have complete information about all of us.
Forget about losing your wallet and having to cancel and re-order you visa card. You'll have to get new fingerprints!:cool:

No thank you!

RustyNut

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

delad

RustyNut wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

no harm that I can see, it would just make the world a safer place

Feathers

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

I disagreed with them at first, but your argument has won me over. "Why shouldn't they?" — I never thought about it like that before…

SocSocPol

RustyNut wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

Inane and childish comment.

Mr. Manager

monkeypants wrote: »

Why's that then?

Because you're only going to cause yourself unnecessary hassle. The scenario is not going to go like this -

"Can I see your ID?"

"No."

"Ok, on you go so."

This is how it would go -

"Can I see your ID?"

"No."

"Sir, can you please show me your ID"

"No, why should I?"

"Because I've requested it"

Yada yada yada. You get the picture...

Logical_Bear

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

You're getting mixed up with the retards that call themselves freemen and the gards can ask away for ID because the only time I have it on me is when Im driving or going to/from the airport and i'd say thats the same for most people.

also they wont replace passports anyway and the only reason I can see for trying to bring them in is to combat illegal immigration and all legal immigrates will have proof fairly quickly to prove that they are legit.

I'm against it,I like my privacy no matter who's trying to invade it and using half baked arguments to justify it doesnt wash.If I've done something wrong,arrest me,other wise f off and find somebody else to intimidate/bully

Nate--IRL--

What are the benefits of an ID card?

Nate

Solair

It'd be handy to be able to prove your ID when you need to.
It's getting a bit tiresome to have to keep producing two utility bills and a passport and a letter from your granny everytime you want to open an account.

I don't think we should have to carry ID but, a card would be handy!

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

Logical_Bear

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

"Can I see your ID?"

"Dont have one,didnt relise I needed one"

"Ok, so that didnt work....plan b- a ha random drug search!"

"empty your pockets"

"no you empty them,I'm not doing your job for you"

"dont make us get out of our car"

"ok" pats pockets "empty guards"

"ah ffs" opens doors,stands beside you and searchs

"ok you can go now,behave yourself"

"I was behaving myself"

"dont get smart"

"I wasnt gettin"

"I said dont get smart.Im gonna arrest you for failiong to obey a garda instruction"

thats normaly howe it plays out:pac:

Nate--IRL--

Solair wrote: »

It'd be handy to be able to prove your ID when you need to.
It's getting a bit tiresome to have to keep producing two utility bills and a passport and a letter from your granny everytime you want to open an account.

I don't think we should have to carry ID but, a card would be handy!

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

RustyNut

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

What are the benefits of an ID card?

Nate

More work for forgers.

Mr. Manager

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

Your ID card would also display your address.

The one I have has on the front:

My picture
My ID card number
My name
My address
My signature

On the back it has:

My DOB
My birth place
My nationality
My sex
and the validity of the card.

The card I posses cuts out so much bullsh!t it's unreal. I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

Goro

Stripey Cat wrote: »

It bothers me. Why should I (and anyone else who doesn't want this) be forced to adopt it?

There has to be a compromise between security/Policing and freedom.

A completely free and liberal society = Anarchy.

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

Logical_Bear

Goro wrote: »

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

why you tying not wanting to having an ID card with having a pocket full of dope?

The guards stop people randomly at the moment,they'll search you anyway(I like to think they are genuine but sometimes I get the distinct impression they are waiting for you to kick off over them behaving like pr1cks) and having a card wont stop them doing that,it'll just be another think for them to pull you up on.

Logical_Bear

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

and seriously if you lose it or your wallet gets stolen you could be fukked.Dont under estimate the criminal element they can/will be well able to forge it.
Yeah you can cancel the card and get a new one but the only thing that will change is number of the card

starlit

I think its worth having though.

Anita Blow

Goro wrote: »

There has to be a compromise between security/Policing and freedom.

A completely free and liberal society = Anarchy.

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

Where does the compromise end though?
We are living in that compromise now and we generally have a low crime rate.
For example, while it's only one part of crime as a whole, we have one of the lowest homicide rates. The UK on the other hand, which is known for it's draconian laws and culture, has a higher homicide rate than us.
I'm not saying that this is because of ID Cards or anything, but my point is that a crime-free society will never happen. It's an ideal and it always will be, but it will constantly be dangled infront of voters by governments who want more power.
Going back to the UK as an example, it has seen it's homicide rate increase from 1.17 during the 2000s to 1.23 this year despite the increase in government surveillance, strict crime laws etc. and yet the UK government will still seek to increase it's power and use this increase in crime as a reason.

We are a country with relatively low-crime and we have done it without the need for ID Cards.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, but I do think people have a duty to scrutinise their own government and know when it is asking for an unreasonable amount of power. The past has shown us how ID Cards can be used maliciously (Nazi Germany, Rwanda etc.) and you have to be completely ignorant to think it could never happen again. Even in our own country, after the extent of corruption our politicians have shown, people should be wary about allowing them to implement policies like this.

I'd be supportive of an ID System like France, where it's non-compulsory and free. All I'm opposed to is it being compulsory and if it were to have invasive information on it.

Mint Sauce

I'm with the arguement that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear or be worried about. If you got a new passport in the last 5 or 6 years ago, their is already aload of electronic data on it about you, the same also applys to many smart cards that people might use for different reasons.

Could also replace the other countless state/goverment issued cards we carry, social security, european medical insurance card, medical card or driver licence for those entitled to one.

OU812 wrote: »

We should have had one by now, they'll probably mess up the implementation & yes it should be mandatory to carry & produce if requested.

It should be readable & also serve as driving licence etc

New CC style drivers licences next year would possibly be the prototype for one, if not also acting as one.

hoodwinked wrote: »

i thought we were getting this in the form of a credit card like driving licence,

i was told they'd be in before this year is out!

Under EU directives the new style drivers licence will be out from January 2013. Only to new applicants though, exsiting licence holders will have to apply for the new style ones.

keith16

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

You haven't answered my question.

And yes, the above are terribly weak IMO - a lot of countries run totalitarian regimes, should we?

My passport won't fit in my wallet and I might lose it? For fcuks sake.

Please explain to me the benefits to the public. And how would these benefits compare to the cost of implementing and maintaining such a system (keeping in mind government spending is far from what you would call efficient in these matters).

delad

keith16 wrote: »

You haven't answered my question.

And yes, the above are terribly weak IMO - a lot of countries run totalitarian regimes, should we?

My passport won't fit in my wallet and I might lose it? For fcuks sake.

Please explain to me the benefits to the public. And how would these benefits compare to the cost of implementing and maintaining such a system (keeping in mind government spending is far from what you would call efficient in these matters).

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

Logical_Bear

doovdela wrote: »

I think its worth having though.

come on abit more effort required!!

Logical_Bear

delad wrote: »

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

no offence but thats way too much information to be carrying around on a card!

First thing...no ID card is accepted instead of passport.Secondly how often do you vote/get asked to produce your driving licence not that often to justify to have you carrying your voting credentials/driving licence details,your home address etc around with you 24/7.

As a tool to combat laziness it's a sound premise otherwise its a waste of time

EDIT: and I doubt very much its gonna happen anyway,irish governments couldnt organise a gangbang in a brothel even if provided with vouchers for said brothel

keith16

delad wrote: »

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

How would this card automatically become a driving licence? How would it 'know' which constituency you are a voter in?

How would it 'know' what your social security entitlements are?

How exactly would it reduce fraud?

I'm sorry but I just don't see it. Government can't even produce an integrated ticketing system for Dublin - the leap card is an absolute joke that has taken years to produce, doesn't do what it's supposed to do and I don't want to even know how much public money they wasted on it.

How long and how much would it cost to produce something as complex as the above?

languagenerd

When I thought of National I.D. cards, I didn't think of draconian laws and police states (in fact, it didn't even occur to me!). I think people are getting a little carried away - the cards wouldn't necessarily have to have ALL of the above info on it.

They would make some things far easier - travelling, opening accounts, social welfare, voting, going out at night... and if you did carry it on you all the time, it would save a lot of time if you were involved in an accident (identifying you, contacting your next of kin, finding out your blood type). And they would make it far easier for people who move to other E.U. countries.

It would be a standardized form of I.D. (so no problems with weird student cards) and, if it was done right, it would make it harder to make fake I.D.s.

I don't see how getting a national I.D. card would suddenly turn the country into a 1984-esque police state. Especially if it was written into law that you could only be charged with not having I.D. if you were arrested for something else at the same time.

I've never had a guard ask my name or for I.D. and nor have most of the people I know. Why is it such a big deal anyway?!

Logical_Bear

languagenerd wrote: »

Why is it such a big deal anyway?!

ignoring what the guards have to put up with,its way to much info to be carrying around with you(Iknow I'm repeating myself).

Also this I havent done anything wrong let the powers that be have the information at hand is wrong.

If I havent done anything wrong,you(and by you I mean the government,the gardai,ESB,Bord Gais etc)shouldnt have access to any information about me unless you need too or if I freely give it.


As for orwellian 1984 type society the only thing going for it was the 2 minute hate sessions!!

evolving_doors

delad wrote: »

It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs

just because you carry a card? whats the difference between that and the pps no which is was supposed to do the same.

The card aint going to make any difference if the software and database systems aren;t linked up in the first place... To fix that would cost a bomb.. remember p.pars?

Then the massive spend on advertisements for idiots to train people in?

Then the spend on the quango that would oversee it?

Govt couldn;t be arsed occupying themselves with this one unless they wanted to throw it out to the media lapdogs as a smokescrean while they released more money to bondholders or gave their advisors payrises or whatever..then you'd get 'debates' on radio with john Waters or whatever and people all asking on the panel "I wonder is this all just a smokescrean Marian? I dunno [she says] lets talk about the merits and disadvantages of it for a while anyway..."

Massive Efficiencies is a word thrown out every now and again but in Ireland it NEVER HAPPENS... Sounds like stoner talk to me

Cut costs means you would have to pay for it (probably every year too)

They trialled it with teenagers first a few years ago (OMG like WTF!) so when they were asked for ID in pubs and offies and they were underage they just showed it and were refused ,went home sobbing,, no more underage drinking in Ireland ensued...

National Identity Card....Never happen...

Just tattoo me ar*e and be done with it

oppenheimer1

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Do you really want to go over the "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" argument?

Privacy is not about hiding, it's about being able to live your life and go about your business without the assumption that some agent of the state can stop you and demand you prove you are who say you are.

They can do that already. We just don't have a standard card that provides the answer.

WolfForager

So from what I've read so far is that my original topic had very weak points and that people don't want to give their personal information to the po po.

Well I just wanted to open up a topic for debate, I didn't realise I had to give a strong list of reasons why I believe they should be introduced, it's AH after all. I just wanted to have a discussion about ID cards, my initial points were more or less just to get the ball rolling.

Some people seem to have an idealistic and some what foolhardy notion of a completely free state. Unless you have something to hide then what's the problem? It's not as if a Gard will scan your card and have a jolly read of your history and personal attributes. It would be more or less to check that your legally in the State or has some people have suggested, that you are a fully qualified driver in the case of the Traffic Corps.

Chuck Stone

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Oh god forbid someone might ask you your name... what is the world coming to.

Anyone can ask me my name but I reserve the right to tell them to fuck right off if I feel like it.

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

If the reason is good enough then arrest me, otherwise? GTFO.

SocSocPol wrote: »

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

Why should they?

This is a stupid idea and I for one will resist any and all moves to restrict my freedom. If I want to go for a walk as a private person and I'm not engaged in criminal behaviour then it's nobody's ****ing business who I am.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin.

syklops

dlofnep wrote: »

If it was 20 or 30 euro, I'd get it. Anymore than that, no chance.

Does not compute. If its a national ID card then its something that arrives in the post. Not something you go to the Post Office to "buy".

Not getting at you dlofnep, just saying, having lived in countries where ID is required to be carried, 'having' to carry something I also 'have' to pay for, may result in me and the rest of the population neither paying for nor carrying.

hatrickpatrick

Solair wrote: »

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

We absolutely could not. Ireland is already too much of a police state in my view and we should be going in the exact opposite direction to this.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned about having to provide a name and address when asked - it's my strong belief that this should not be required unless the Garda cites a specific offense you are suspected of.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hide "crimes" and everything to do with being treated like an independent adult human being. My business is nobody's business but my own. The government already have the right to poke their noses in far too much, we should be taking away a lot of their powers, not giving them extra ones.

Feathers

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

Your ID card would also display your address.

The one I have has on the front:

My picture
My ID card number
My name
My address
My signature

On the back it has:

My DOB
My birth place
My nationality
My sex
and the validity of the card.

The card I posses cuts out so much bullsh!t it's unreal. I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

One of the pros people put for it is that you don't have to carry your passport, wouldn't want to lose it. But then happy to carry around your full address along with your house keys 24/7... Strange.

Goro

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We absolutely could not. Ireland is already too much of a police state in my view and we should be going in the exact opposite direction to this.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned about having to provide a name and address when asked - it's my strong belief that this should not be required unless the Garda cites a specific offense you are suspected of.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hide "crimes" and everything to do with being treated like an independent adult human being. My business is nobody's business but my own. The government already have the right to poke their noses in far too much, we should be taking away a lot of their powers, not giving them extra ones.

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

syklops

Goro wrote: »

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

Ah jaysus, if you dont know what a police state is, could you not look it up rather than making your self look foolish?

wikipedia wrote:

A police state is one in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

eth0

Goro wrote: »

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

Are you wanting to turn it into a police state?

conorhal

eth0 wrote: »

Are you wanting to turn it into a police state?

Is France a police state? :rolleyes:

Get a grip, your paranoia is showing...

eth0

conorhal wrote: »

Is France a police state? :rolleyes:

Get a grip, your paranoia is showing...

Its turning into one. They are very heavy on the regulations and bureaucracy there

Sykk

No problem. Nothing to hide.

grundie

The "if you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide" is nicely cancelled out by the "If I've done nothing wrong you have no reason to take an interest in me" one.

The problem I have with a national ID card is that it would be used as a red herring to hide it's true pupose, the centralisation of our personal data.

Our personal details would no longer be duplicated accross multiple government databases (e.g. Revenue, Social Welfare, Motor tex etc) there would be a central DB to store our core personal details which would be referred to by all the different government agencies.

This would naturally lead to the governent using that data to 'encourage' you to do what it wants. Imagine a situation where a Guard asks for your card, swipes it and discovers you haven't paid your household charge? "Oh dear, you haven't paid your household charge, what else are you up to?" Or how about going to renew your passport and being told you cant because of outstanding motor tax/NCT/etc?

What if you were fully compliant with the law? Just one mistake in the central DB would affect all your interactions with the government.

If the ID card was just an ID card I wouldn't have a problem with it. But as we all know, give a politician a tool to control the population and they will struggle to resist the urge to use it.

I know this may sound a bit conspiracy theory-ish, but the potential to abuse an ID card system exists and such risks would outweigh the benefits in my opinion.

Dionysius2

It would provide one great way to deal effectively with the growing phantom army up to their oxters in the black economy.

Fuinseog

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Some jumped up Garda demanding to "see my papers"? No thanks.

Unless you're saying it would be voluntary to carry it, in which case it would be pointless.

yeah, f that. you would think the guards are some kind of police force trying to uphold laws. where else can you give 'mickey mouse' as your name and get away with it cos they cannot prove otherwise.

who the fug

Dionysius2 wrote: »

It would provide one great way to deal effectively with the growing phantom army up to their oxters in the black economy.

No it won't , it will just create a market for phony ID cards.

Computer says no, will become more than a catch phrase and we all know computers never have the wrong info entered

humanji

I think the "But they'll oppress us" argument is a red-herring. If ID cards were implemented properly, they'd be very handy. This is Ireland and so there's no chance in hell of them being implemented properly. It'd be a matter of days before some civil servant leaves a laptop at a bus station which has access to the databases which hold our info. We'll be charged extortionate amounts to get the cards. They're 100% certain to be easily forgeable. As pointed out above, having your address and keys with you everywhere you go is f*cking moronic. It'll cost us billions to implement and that's only after several expensive missteps along the way. And most importantly, we don't actually need them.

So far it seems the only real downside to not having them is that if you go to an EU country, you might feel embarrassed by having to explain that Ireland doesn't have them. I'm fairly certain that I could live with that shame.

Anita Blow

WolfForager wrote: »

Unless you have something to hide then what's the problem?

Would people please stop using this argument.
I don't need a reason for wanting to keep my personal information private. If I'm a law-abiding citizen then the government nor the guards have any business asking for personal details from me.

There was a similar discussion on Primetime a couple of weeks ago about setting up a centralised DNA Database and whether it should include everybody's DNA, or those who've been convicted of a crime. One of the panelists quite rightly brought up the case in the UK where it was found the police were purposely arresting young people who had committed minor crimes just to add their DNA to the database.

I think the UK DNA Database is a great parallel of how the centralisation of personal information by government is bad.
"In July 2009, a lawyer, Lorraine Elliot, was arrested on accusations of forgery which were quickly proven to be false. A DNA sample was taken from her and logged. She was cleared of the accusations a day later and exonerated. However, Mrs Elliot subsequently lost her job (even though she was completely innocent of any crime) when the fact that her DNA profile was stored on the national database was discovered during a subsequent work-related security check."

Mr. Manager

Anita Blow wrote: »

Would people please stop using this argument.
I don't need a reason for wanting to keep my personal information private. If I'm a law-abiding citizen then the government nor the guards have any business asking for personal details from me.

It could be a case of mistaken identity (going from a physical description given) that they need to ask for your ID.

No one said you had to do anything wrong to get asked to show your ID.

I seriously don't get all this bullshit in this thread of, I should be able to walk around as a free man. No one is trying to take anything from you... chill.

Goro

syklops wrote: »

Ah jaysus, if you dont know what a police state is, could you not look it up rather than making your self look foolish?

If I look foolish to you it's no loss.

Nevertheless, Ireland is not a Police state. There are many many examples of a Police state. Cuba is one of them. Ireland is not.