What should be done about the IMO? (If anything)

drzhivago

his_dudeness wrote: »

Also if membership rates weere higher, membership fees could probably go down.

BTW, i've no formal relation with the IMO apart from my membership, but have though of it.

Anyone else feel a hardline approach is needed?

But you need to be clear the IMO are not some bunch of employees in an office in Dublin, they are the junior doctors around the country

Unless they push the employees of the IMO then like any other employee they will take path of least resistance and do as asked, i.e. if not asked specifically to do something it will not be done

Bear in mind the employees of the IMO are not doctors and much as they talk about 36 hour and 48 hour shifts they have never had to work them and neither have the HSE HSEEE or whatever new group sits across the table from them.

It needs doctors to be involved to solve some of these problems but as I get older I see less and less doctors willing to give up their time to solve these problems and don't give me that SH1T that your job is too busy, it is no busier than 97 or 99 when we weren't getting paid overtime and really couldn't afford to give up locus opportunities to fight for our rights as NCHDs, we needed to do it as a group and that is what happened.

Since that time unfortunately people don't want to give up the time

drzhivago

his_dudeness wrote: »

A big problem with junior docs taking action is the reaction of the consultants. Irish postgrad training has such a small community, especially when you go to a subspeciality, that personal impressions matter. And if we're seen to be argumentative and "trouble-makers", it quickly gets around and can make the already difficult progeression even harder!

Crap

Trevor Duffy was head of Junior doctor committee in IMO, now a consultant in connolly hospital and the Chair of the Consultant committee in IMO, his perspectives will have changed regarding what are his priority fights but i am fairly confident if approached with a solid argument regarding an NCDH issue he would back it in the IMO

I wonder have they contacted him, even the NCHDs who work in his hospital

drzhivago

SleepDoc wrote: »

The IMO have a softly softly approach to industrial relations which really can't work when you're up against a crowd of gurriers. As professionals we are entitled to have contracts honoured and work only hours allowed by law. And to withdraw our labour when that does not happen.

Australian colleagues complain about their health service and I try, really try not to tell them how lucky they are.

Have been in two hospitals when strike was called, there was only one buck outside despite everyone signing up to it, that is the difficulty with any action, unless willing to back up the threat nothing will change

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

I still think if enough NCHD's joined it would be come a force again. The deivision of the IMO into comittees is a compromise but has the potential to work.
Otherwise put up with it or walk....

Agree completely here fowly old boy, if they'd not join they fight their own battles, a s a group they are much stronger and I speak now as a dirty consultant

drzhivago

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

What the IMO needs to do is simply go away. If it casts us free and focuses on GPs and Public health ( consultants essentially have their own union ) then we can acually join a functioning union. As long as pretends to represent us then we are fecked basically trapped between a spineless unfunctioning union and some of the worst labour practices in the country. Lets say we could as a body join SIPTU tomorrow. Even if they were just as useless as the IMO well at least the bloody subscriptions would be a lot less. My cousin's husband works in HR in a hospital. They have nothing but contempt for the IMO. He told me once the radiographers threatened to take industrial action over a broken plug - forcing them to plug their machines in about 8m away from the usual spot. In contrast you can work an NCHD half to death, not pay them and break every labour law in the book and worse case scenario you get an icily polite call from the IMO threatned to take legal action sometime in 2040. The only method left is not mega-engagement with the IMO - its total disengagement. Start again afresh with a different union, establish a much better reputation.( im not touting siptu, inmo or any given one, but much easier to join one with a hospital presence already)

Cant be done was tried in past, the UNION is only as strong as the members

You will find that SIPTU members will go on strike when SIPTU calls

IMO members won't

Will that change if the individual doctors join another UNion, NO NO NO

It will still be dependent on doctors getting involved and forcing the agenda otherwise how will SIPTU or ANOTHER UNION know what to do ro what to argue for

The best result is to join IMO, or those in IMO to force its hand, turn up to meetings and shout, get things changed

Hurlers on the ditch don't win games they just piss off and rabble rouse other hurlers on the ditch

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

Bull.

They had over 4000 nchd membrs a couple of years back and a 95% ballot for strike and they simply rolled over for the HSE, agreed to ludicrous things, obtained no improvement in working conditions, and shafted their members.

Take a look at their organisational structure:
http://www.imo.ie/about-imo/constitution-and-rules/


One organisation CANNOT represent all these groups without conflict of interest. It's just not possible.

It is possible and happens in many countries

Never had 4000 members or not for some considerable period of time in my opinion

What are the ludicrous things agreed to??

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

My preferred alternative ? No union. Unions are outdated. Maybe a trimmed down legal fund at most. But basically private action with a qualified solicitor will achieve more than a union. Unions become self serving entities and will shaft individual members in the name of the 'greater good' (thinking of a specific case I'm aware of outside of medicine where individuals rights were trampled in order to not piss-off a multinational. This only happened because the person was in a union and the union were thinking of jobs - a pit-bull lawyer representing only this person would have torn strips out of the multinational)

You can do some of this personally with a solicitor or without using LRC

Very dependent on your will power and ability to persevere with paperwork.

There have been one or two people who have progressed issues here

The difficulty getting involved with LRC will be it is a single issue at point in time IE

you don't get paid overtime for 1 or 2 months, uyou take the case based on that, have a hearing and win, you get the money, hospital has continued not paying your properly, you take another case etc etc

Theyc an hold out here but you cannot in general

The LRC have never held a hospital manager responsible for any of this, if they did something might change and they do have that power to hold them personally responsible which was the previous threat of the verification board for junior doctors overtime

drzhivago

SleepDoc wrote: »

Like most things it is far cheaper if you do it yourself.

Rights Commissioner (Labour Relations Commission) under Section 5 of the Payment of Wages Act 1991

http://www.lrc.ie/document/More-on-the-Rights-Commission/4/745.htm

Its single issue though and there may be multiple

• Payment of wages has a specific path to be sorted
• Working Sunday hours without appropriate payment has different emchanism
• Working excessive hours has different mechanism

Difficult to keep such actions going on all fronts

Suggest you get or the people reading who are affected get the IMO to force this issue with jul;tipple cases to LRC as the LRC has brokered these contracts and been asked to ensure that HSE actually pay what they are meant to

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

Maybe if they didn't spend so much time and money on circle jerk policy-making and vanity publications they could actually concentrate on being, you know, a trade union for doctors.

Sorry but think you are actually taking out of your rear end and missing the point the IMO is the name of the company

The people who need to do the work are the Union members, setting policy and pushing the executive (employees) to do the work and following up to make sure they do it

Fowl will have some experience of this as a man my age as we got involved to execute change

If younger docs now don't get involved and are happy paying membership to a union and then not getting the union to do anything how can they say they are unhappy


for those who are not union members what do you do to sort your own problems, and how successful have you been

have had 20 years of armchair revolutionaries and to be honest am sick to my teeth of hearing people moan and then not wanting to put their hands up to do the work to effect change

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

am sick to my teeth of hearing people moan and then not wanting to put their hands up to do the work to effect change

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

RobFowl

2Scoops wrote: »

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

I got involved representing local GP's and ended up doing nights attending meetings up to 0200 as an unpaid rep to improve conditions. 9 years on am still an unpaid director of a GP co-op working hard to improve and maintain improvements in OOH cover and working conditions.

Certainly didn't do it alone but every one can make a difference if they get involved. Sniping from the sidelines while, easy never gets results in the long term.....

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. Too much of this ****e; in 2009 they got ~3800 NCHDs on board and nothing happened.

Now explain to me why I should pay the guts of $1000 so the public guys can write a jolly good paper, we can fund 25 salaries, miscellaneous unnecessary services, and a journal with an impact factor of 0. There's so much bloat, it's unreal.

look simple as don't pay but then sort your own problems, stop bitching to the rest of us

Second read the proposals on the table from HSE in 2008 and the results then you will see what achieved

Not ideal, you (the NCHD body) didn't get all you wanted but surgeons wanted to work long hours and they still can, medics wanted to work shorter hours and they can, the duration of on call was meant to be capped but that is also up to the individual to action and report

I can't justify the costs of the membership, I have argued internally when i was involved as a rep that the rates were too high for NCHDs at the time as a percentage of income as I was doing shifts and no overtime at the time but I didn't get anywhere back then with that

Others weer more concerned with other matters and they took precedence, end result we got a training grant and overtime back then but that has all gone now because there is not the solidarity there was

I am not an apologist I am a realist and I tried to effect change, I suspect you haven't even tried to get your own overtime paid in your own hospital because you are too afraid of what might happen

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

look simple as don't pay but then sort your own problems, stop bitching to the rest of us

You're the one who's bitching, my friend. I'm simply offering a rebuttal to your defense of the IMO.

drzhivago wrote: »

I suspect you haven't even tried to get your own overtime paid in your own hospital because you are too afraid of what might happen

:rolleyes: I do alright for myself, thanks.

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

You're the one who's bitching, my friend. I'm simply offering a rebuttal to your defense of the IMO.

"Yeah? Well, I'm sick of kool aid-drinking union apologists who do nothing but victim-blaming, "YOU are YOUR union," blah blah blah. "

I must have been mistaken then was this quote from you not directed at me then

2Scoops wrote: »

:rolleyes: I do alright for myself, thanks.

If you do all right what is the problem then you obviously don't need the IMO, it must be out of concern for the rest of us that you are commenting

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

I must have been mistaken then was this quote from you not directed at me then

If you want me to multi-quote your posts covering defense of IMO fees, blaming apathetic NCHDs for the impotence of the IMO, and bitching aimed me personally, I will. But tbh, they're directly above for all to see. The comment I made about 'victim blaming apologists' was a deliberate reaction to that.

drzhivago wrote: »

If you do all right what is the problem then you obviously don't need the IMO, it must be out of concern for the rest of us that you are commenting

I don't need the IMO; I need an effective trade union that uses its money well. I've obviously touched a nerve to deserve all these snide comments, I know how much you worked with them. Sorry if I offended you.

RobFowl

Mod note please remember the forum charter (no personal abuse)

opinion guy

What just happened here ?
Someone had a few Saturday night drinks and decide to try catchign up on the thread ?

sam34

sam34 wrote: »

one big issue I had with the IMO was the cost. when I was an SR it was dearer for me to be in the IMO than it is now for me to be in the IHCA. that's a ludicrous situation given the salary difference.

drzhivago wrote: »

Sam like the fact you are a mod But without being rude you are clueless about this situation

The IMO does represent all Branches of medicine at levels most people would not even know about, inputs to health policy and public policy that the mouthpiece that is the IHCA never has or has never tried to

not clueless at all, drZ. I stated clearly that the IMO was more expensive for an SR than the IHCA is for a consultant. that's an indisputable fact.
irrespective of what you claim the merits of either organisation to be, that to me is ludicrous. the cost was the main reason I left the IMO years ago, it was simply too high. you seem to acknowledge that in your own post below:

drzhivago wrote: »

I can't justify the costs of the membership, I have argued internally when i was involved as a rep that the rates were too high for NCHDs at the time as a percentage of income as I was doing shifts and no overtime at the time but I didn't get anywhere back then

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

What just happened here ?
Someone had a few Saturday night drinks and decide to try catchign up on the thread ?

Nope no drinks
Had a saturday night with no kids, on call no drinks
And yes am catching up

drzhivago

sam34 wrote: »

not clueless at all, drZ. I stated clearly that the IMO was more expensive for an SR than the IHCA is for a consultant. that's an indisputable fact.
irrespective of what you claim the merits of either organisation to be, that to me is ludicrous. the cost was the main reason I left the IMO years ago, it was simply too high. you seem to acknowledge that in your own post below:

The expense I don't agree with but also the comparison between the two, it will take a while to figure it our but most do eventually

opinion guy

Are you connected to the IMO Dr Z ????

sam34

drzhivago wrote: »

The expense I don't agree with but also the comparison between the two, it will take a while to figure it our but most do eventually

nice snide remark there, drz. :rolleyes:

bottom line, my trade union subscription is over €200 less per year now that I'm in the IHCA.

and, on an anecdotal level, any dealings I've had with the IHCA have been very satisfactory, with Donal Duffy ringing me at 9pm on one occasion to discuss something urgent, and having a letter in the post to me and my employer the next day. I'm still waiting for soneone in the IMO to return a call I made in 2009.

TC80

Some interesting discussion here.

The main reason that NCHDs are shabbily treated is not the HSE, or consultants, or any union. It is NCHDs themselves.

The prevailing mood among NCHDs regarding the IMO at the moment is “What is this organisation of doctors that I do not subscribe to and do nothing for doing for me?” This is unsustainable. For their part the IMO have been negligent in how they have allowed themselves to become marginalised over recent years. There were plenty of spaces they could have got themselves into but failed to do so and are reaping the rewards now.

Many NCHDs stick their head above the parapet for their colleagues. In a previous life I was very active in the IMO and involved in a dispute at a hospital that I worked in where NCHDs were not being paid overtime. I organised the NCHDs against this and it ended up within 3 months going to the LRC where the HSE were imposed upon to pay the money. Eventually they did and within 6 months over 200 NCHDs got cheques on average of €1000 each.

During this period I was subjected not only to hassle from NCHDs but I was threatened with suspension by hospital management and innuendoes regarding where I might stand in relation to future consultant appointments at the hospital. It was a pretty stressful time but with the help of Shirley at the IMO we all got back every cent owed. Of the 200 doctors that got payouts, 3 sent emails to thank me. None that were not members of the IMO signed up, so basically those who weren’t members were piggybacking on the subscriptions of those who were to fight this fight, which I thought was desperately uncollegial. From that point onward I thought :Feck it, why bother? And since that moment, I haven’t. One of the earlier posters might like to know that I got a hell of a lot more support in that difficult time from consultants than other NCHDs. One of the funniest aspects was a series of spiteful emails I got from a surgical SpR who denounced me as a “money grabbing beard who was getting in the way of a hospital being managed”. I’d love to know if he cashed his hefty cheque for back overtime.

Someone raised a good point about the IMOs policies on public health matters. This is a classic example of how the IMO, or any other organisation, works. Public health doctors are very active and engaged with the IMO and have very high levels of membership, including the current president. These are the issues that matter to them so they fill out their forms and put them on agendas, have them discussed and implement them, very successfully. NCHDs don’t do this. They don’t attend meetings, they don’t join organisations. they don’t fill out motion forms, they generally won’t talk on radio and television about it, Therefore there is a disproportionate emphasis placed on issues that are of importance to public health doctors, such as smoking and road safety, than issues that are important to NCHDs like hours, career progression and overtime.

This being busy thing is a load of triple. We’re all busy, someone still has to do the stuff. I don’t say this lightly but as someone who is in their last year as an NCHD and who has spent countless days in the LRC and Labour Court and management offices : NCHDs are getting what they deserve at the moment for their cowardice and immaturity in respect of taking ownership of their own affairs as a group. The IMO is a flawed organisation which at the very least provides them with a mechanism for doing so.

Over the course of 9 years as an NCHD our sense of looking out for one another and standing up for one another has collapsed. It’s all about me, me, me. And to briefly touch on the IHCA, I think it must be acknowledged that they are an organisation that was set up in response to NCHDs going on strike in 1987. And if people think the IMO don’t do enough for junior doctors PR, then I’d love to know what their opinion on the IHCA on that score as “hospital consultant” is (most unfairly in my view) one of the terms people use in the same tone of voice as “banker” and ”developer” these days.

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

Are you connected to the IMO Dr Z ????

Connected as in I am an ordinary jobbing doctor who pays a membership, I have no role, not part of any group or committee BUT as an NCHD I did in the past and as a worker I did also when I worked with Waterford co-op

I was brought up in trade unions and a union is only as strong as the members who force the rep to hassle the executive (workers in the unions) to sort the problems

If the union members never meet in their workplace (Hospital) to elect a local union rep (doctor/NCHD who is willing to give up time to sort issues) then that union is unlikely to ever have a co-ordinated group of workers (NCHDS) and management will take liberties as they see fit

This is why I say people need to get involved, if a lot of people meet and strategies local issues it makes reps job easier and can also force the Union to do something

If you sit back and expect the union to walk in and sort the issues out that you haven't told them about it will never work

As much as people blame the IMO (and when I say that I hope you or others out there mean the employees of the IMO and not your colleagues who are giving of they time to solve your problems), if the workers/members/NCHDs don't actually organize themselves and are willing to get involved and act unions then have no power

I may be saying things you don't want to hear BUT Medicine is too middle class to understand how a union works and how members should act to solve problems

This sort of sounds very labour movement/Jim Larkinesque but NCHDS are on their knees and it is only they that get themselves on their feet with the help of the IMO, it won't happen through one or two people but through massive engagement

drzhivago

TC80 wrote: »

Some interesting discussion here.

The main reason that NCHDs are shabbily treated is not the HSE, or consultants, or any union. It is NCHDs themselves.

The prevailing mood among NCHDs regarding the IMO at the moment is “What is this organisation of doctors that I do not subscribe to and do nothing for doing for me?” This is unsustainable. For their part the IMO have been negligent in how they have allowed themselves to become marginalised over recent years. There were plenty of spaces they could have got themselves into but failed to do so and are reaping the rewards now.

I feel I now have 1 friend in the world swimming against the tide with me and I agree with your sentiment regarding the IMOs lackadaisical approach in recent years where they ahem effectively lost the hard fought gains
Training grant
Living out allowance and now diploma allowances to go as well as all the pay cuts

TC80 wrote: »

Many NCHDs stick their head above the parapet for their colleagues. In a previous life I was very active in the IMO and involved in a dispute at a hospital that I worked in where NCHDs were not being paid overtime. I organised the NCHDs against this and it ended up within 3 months going to the LRC where the HSE were imposed upon to pay the money. Eventually they did and within 6 months over 200 NCHDs got cheques on average of €1000 each.

During this period I was subjected not only to hassle from NCHDs but I was threatened with suspension by hospital management and innuendoes regarding where I might stand in relation to future consultant appointments at the hospital. It was a pretty stressful time but with the help of Shirley at the IMO we all got back every cent owed. Of the 200 doctors that got payouts, 3 sent emails to thank me. None that were not members of the IMO signed up, so basically those who weren’t members were piggybacking on the subscriptions of those who were to fight this fight, which I thought was desperately uncollegial. From that point onward I thought :Feck it, why bother? And since that moment, I haven’t. One of the earlier posters might like to know that I got a hell of a lot more support in that difficult time from consultants than other NCHDs. One of the funniest aspects was a series of spiteful emails I got from a surgical SpR who denounced me as a “money grabbing beard who was getting in the way of a hospital being managed”. I’d love to know if he cashed his hefty cheque for back overtime.

That was my experience over all also, everyone happy for me to be the mouth piece but didn't want to be seen discussing issues anywhere in case they were guilty by association with me, it was great as long as the wins came but when we didn't get double overtime at one point we had to change home phone number because of the hate calls my then girlfriend was getting at night

TC80 wrote: »

Someone raised a good point about the IMOs policies on public health matters. This is a classic example of how the IMO, or any other organisation, works. Public health doctors are very active and engaged with the IMO and have very high levels of membership, including the current president. These are the issues that matter to them so they fill out their forms and put them on agendas, have them discussed and implement them, very successfully. NCHDs don’t do this. They don’t attend meetings, they don’t join organisations. they don’t fill out motion forms, they generally won’t talk on radio and television about it, Therefore there is a disproportionate emphasis placed on issues that are of importance to public health doctors, such as smoking and road safety, than issues that are important to NCHDs like hours, career progression and overtime.

I have to agree the Public health doctors use the UNION aspect of the IMO effectively knowing how to play the long game, much better than GP or Consultant while I would class the NCHD group at the bottom regarding their ability to capitalise on opportunities through Union

TC80 wrote: »

This being busy thing is a load of triple. We’re all busy, someone still has to do the stuff. I don’t say this lightly but as someone who is in their last year as an NCHD and who has spent countless days in the LRC and Labour Court and management offices : NCHDs are getting what they deserve at the moment for their cowardice and immaturity in respect of taking ownership of their own affairs as a group. The IMO is a flawed organisation which at the very least provides them with a mechanism for doing so.

Have to agree here also, almost all NCHDS are busy in their careers but who do they expect to go to these meetings, respect to you for doing so and for doing it for a number of years

TC80 wrote: »

Over the course of 9 years as an NCHD our sense of looking out for one another and standing up for one another has collapsed. It’s all about me, me, me. And to briefly touch on the IHCA, I think it must be acknowledged that they are an organisation that was set up in response to NCHDs going on strike in 1987. And if people think the IMO don’t do enough for junior doctors PR, then I’d love to know what their opinion on the IHCA on that score as “hospital consultant” is (most unfairly in my view) one of the terms people use in the same tone of voice as “banker” and ”developer” these days.

I wish your ell in your career and this is a very dodgy time for you as the HSE seek to bring in another sub consultant grade at around 100k per year. This is a race to the bottom now