Poll reveals less than half of Irish people consider themselves to be religious

aidan24326

Cienciano wrote: »

That was a good ideal. It's crap. The quality of religion taught in school is one reason a priest just gave. It shouldn't even be taught in schools!

What he basically means by 'the quality of religion being taught' is that kids aren't being brainwashed quite good enough. Bring back fire and brimstone and scaring the bejesus out of them. That should work.

There's merit in teaching religion in school alright, just not in the way that it's traditionally been done. Educating children about religion and indoctrinating them are two very different things.

robindch

aidan24326 wrote: »

Bring back fire and brimstone and scaring the bejesus out of them.

Am feeling like Bernard Woolley here, but isn't the job of priests to scare the bejesus into them?

Liamario

Did RTE cover this poll? Or have they given up on trying to hide their catholic bias?

Sycopat

jank wrote: »

It is more than laws. Is Scotland the same as England, since they share the same laws?
Laws are created by people who may share a similar value system and culture. The two are not mutually exclusive.



OK,.......I never said they did either, why do you think I am defending 100% what john waters is saying, all I said that he had one point. I mentioned this before in another thread, what comes after religion and secularisation. What replaces it if nothing?

Nature abhors a vacuum. So instead of the usual tired and trusted ad-hominon attacks on all things religious, maybe we can actually have a discussion about this or is the forum incapable?

Nature abhors a vacuum eh? Most of the universe is a vacuum. Nature ****ing loves vacuums. Now biology, biology loves finding easily harvestable energy, which means if there is an energy rich niche, life will try to fill it. Which is where that phrase comes from. But biology being greedy is not a great argument. Because religion is a construct, an idea. But also because biology never makes value choices, and figures the brains of humans just as good a place to breed worms as soil is. That's actually what that argument says.

As to what replaces religion?
I'm not sure what you mean? Why does it need to be replaced? Why can't it just be done away with? What is it you think we lose by discarding it? Is it morality? Ethics?

It's perfectly possible to construct a functional set of morals and ethics from logic, reason, a decent understanding of the world, and a small dash of (All natural, biologically hardwired into your brain) empathy. (Although, to be honest, I don't think the empathy is necessary if you can understand just how unlikely, and beautifully complex and fragile, a sapient piece of carbon is)

Is it something else? What? The onus is not on me to read every post you've ever printed because you might have said something before. If you want to make an argument, make it.

Don't complain no one wants to argue with you, from what I've seen of this sub-forum they love arguing. Deeply, passionately, with anyone and over anything (perhaps a little too earnestly even). What they won't do is let you win. You have to earn it.

PopePalpatine

TBH whenever I read one of David Quinn's articles I can hear a baby wailing.

Dades

PopePalpatine wrote: »

TBH whenever I read one of David Quinn's articles I can hear a baby wailing.

It's probably the one on your barbecue.

robindch

Story makes it to HuffPo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html

HuffPo wrote:

Rocked in recent years by sex-abuse scandals and crises in leadership, the Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland has been struggling to keep its members close. But this week, a new global survey on faith and atheism has revealed that the crisis of faith in Ireland may be much worse than previously thought. According to the poll released by WIN-Gallup International, the traditionally Catholic country has seen one of the steepest drops worldwide in religiosity.

The poll -- which was based on interviews with more than 50,000 people selected from 57 countries -- asked participants, "irrespective of whether they attended a place of worship, if they considered themselves to be religious, not religious, or an atheist." In Ireland, only 47 percent of those polled said they considered themselves religious -- a 22-point drop from the 69 percent recorded in a similar poll conducted in 2005. In addition, 10 percent self-identified as atheist. The only country that registered a steeper decline in religiosity was Vietnam, which saw a 23-point drop from 53 percent to 30 percent.

However, Ireland and Vietnam were not unique in this dip in faith, Reuters notes. According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide. Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59 percent, while 13 percent self-identify as atheist.

However, according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent. Note that only 40 countries were polled in both 2005 and 2012, so there are two different sets of data available. The U.S., France and Canada joined Ireland on the top-10 list of countries to have experienced a "notable decline in religiosity" since 2005.

The number of people in the U.S. who self-identify as religious dropped 13 points to 60 percent. In addition, 5 percent of Americans declared themselves atheists, an increase of 4 points since 2005. Yet, despite this global decline in faith, the focus at the moment seems to be on Ireland, where Catholicism has had a long and rich tradition. Since the poll results were made available to the public, many have lamented the drop in Ireland's religious feeling, with one Guardian writer calling it "the end of Catholic Ireland."

However, some Irish Catholic officials and organizations are insisting that the poll may not show the full picture and have cautioned against taking the index as a comprehensive indicator of Irish faith. For example, a spokesperson for the Catholic Communications Office told the Belfast Telegraph that the language used by the poll may have been misleading. "The word 'religious', if left unqualified, is too general to be used as the keyword in a survey questionnaire -- especially in the Irish context -- where people prefer words such as 'spiritual'. Being 'religious' is a very subjective measurement," he said.

Indeed, the same Guardian writer who hinted at an impending collapse of Catholicism in Ireland also noted that though "the traditional structures of "religion" [may be] weaker, there remains a strong deposit of "faith" among the people." Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland. "The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members," he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Sinead Mooney, deputy managing director of RED C Research -- the company that conducted the Irish poll -- told Reuters that there were two factors that likely contributed to Ireland's sharp decline in religiosity. "Obviously, there were all the scandals in the Church over that period -- that was massive," she said. "Also, as countries get richer, they tend to lose some sense of religion. We did become richer -- at least at the beginning of that period." According to the poll, the most devout region of the world is Africa -- and the countries where most people self-identified as religious were Ghana (96 percent), Nigeria (93 percent) and Macedonia (90 percent), Reuters notes.

Sarky

It's probably the subtle influence of Assassin's Creed. So subtle I haven't seen anyone complain about its obvious secular and gay agenda.

Hotblack Desiato

aidan24326 wrote: »

There's merit in teaching warning children about religion in school alright, just not in the way that it's traditionally been done.

FYP

Hotblack Desiato

Ugh that 'interview' with Waters on Newstalk the other morning nearly had me spitting blood. Had me in a bad mood all morning so it did :mad:

Edit: he wouldn't dare call Muslims or Jews or Protestants stupid for their beliefs, but atheists are fair game according to him, the Irish Times, and Newstalk :rolleyes: :mad:


So... what can we replace the Roman Catholic Church with?

I would agree that it cannot be replaced with any one idea...

...so I propose to replace it with two...



Freedom of Conscience

and

Rationality




I know, radical stuff there, it'll probably never catch on :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Subject: John Waters
From: xxxxx@xxxx
To: scolemanATnewstalk.ie, infoATnewstalk.ie


To whom it concerns,

I am writing to complain about your recent morning programme featuring John
Waters on the subject of a survey on religious practice in Ireland.

Mr Waters made a comment that atheists are 'stupid' - this would be regarded
as bigoted and unacceptable (and potentially legally actionable) had he made
this comment in relation to members of a religion such as Judaism, Islam, or
Protestantism. It appears that Newstalk considers atheists as 'fair game' for
unbalanced, irrational criticism.

While the presence of blasphemy legislation in our statute book is
unacceptable to me, I find it even more objectionable that the absence of a
similar legal sanction against denigrating those who profess an absence of
religious belief is seen by commentators on your station as a licence to
ridicule and abuse them.

I trust that Newstalk does not endorse the bigoted comments of Mr Waters and
will be broadcasting a retraction and apology shortly.

Yours,

Turtwig

ninja900 wrote: »

Subject: John Waters
From: xxxxx@xxxx
To: scolemanATnewstalk.ie, infoATnewstalk.ie


To whom it concerns,

I am writing to complain about your recent morning programme featuring John
Waters on the subject of a survey on religious practice in Ireland.

Mr Waters made a comment that atheists are 'stupid' - this would be regarded
as bigoted and unacceptable (and potentially legally actionable) had he made
this comment in relation to members of a religion such as Judaism, Islam, or
Protestantism. It appears that Newstalk considers atheists as 'fair game' for
unbalanced, irrational criticism.

While the presence of blasphemy legislation in our statute book is
unacceptable to me, I find it even more objectionable that the absence of a
similar legal sanction against denigrating those who profess an absence of
religious belief is seen by commentators on your station as a licence to
ridicule and abuse them.

I trust that Newstalk does not endorse the bigoted comments of Mr Waters and
will be broadcasting a retraction and apology shortly.

Yours,

I don't mean to sound too cynical here and I realise it might just be different time zones, but did you really send that at 2.00 am and did you really mean to do that?

i think it was a good idea

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

i think it was a good idea

Oh I don't disagree with it, it's just the fact he sent it at 2.a.m. That'd probably be the last time of the day I'd intend to write someone a formal email of complaint.

Hotblack Desiato

Would be better than doing it at 9am, I'm so not a morning person

It'll probably be deleted unread like the last time I complained to Newstalk (about Michael Graham's repeated use of the w****r-word at 5pm)

Dave!

Do we know what date/s the poll would have been taken in Ireland? Just wondering, because we've had sh*tloads of emigration recently, disproportionately young people I believe, so this might have flattered the "religious" results even!

Solair

ninja900 wrote: »

Subject: John Waters
From: xxxxx@xxxx
To: scolemanATnewstalk.ie, infoATnewstalk.ie


To whom it concerns,

I am writing to complain about your recent morning programme featuring John
Waters on the subject of a survey on religious practice in Ireland.

Mr Waters made a comment that atheists are 'stupid' - this would be regarded
as bigoted and unacceptable (and potentially legally actionable) had he made
this comment in relation to members of a religion such as Judaism, Islam, or
Protestantism. It appears that Newstalk considers atheists as 'fair game' for
unbalanced, irrational criticism.

While the presence of blasphemy legislation in our statute book is
unacceptable to me, I find it even more objectionable that the absence of a
similar legal sanction against denigrating those who profess an absence of
religious belief is seen by commentators on your station as a licence to
ridicule and abuse them.

I trust that Newstalk does not endorse the bigoted comments of Mr Waters and
will be broadcasting a retraction and apology shortly.

Yours,

You should lodge that with the BAI.
http://www.bai.ie/

Hotblack Desiato

You used to be able to complain directly to the BAI. They must have been getting too many, because now you have to complain to the broadcaster and wait for them to ignore deal with it before the BAI will even look at it.

[-0-]

More details on the poll here seamus: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/poll-shows-atheism-on-the-rise-in-the-us/2012/08/13/90020fd6-e57d-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html

— Besides Vietnam, Ireland had the greatest change in religiosity, down from 69 percent to 47 percent.

MrPudding

jank wrote: »

It is more than laws. Is Scotland the same as England, since they share the same laws?

Leaving aside the inconvenience (to you) point that they don't share the same laws or legal system, the main difference is people in Scotland are Scottish and people in England are English.

I see little need for religion.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

TBH whenever I read one of David Quinn's articles I can hear a baby wailing.

Is it baby Jesus?

MrP

Shenshen

robindch wrote: »

Story makes it to HuffPo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html

Nonetheless, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said that the global index has undoubtedly highlighted the challenges facing the Catholic Church in Ireland. "The Catholic Church, on its part, cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members,"

Oh, good grief... does that mean he'll start sending missionaries round again???

Hotblack Desiato

Bit weak tbh, but at least they replied...

Newstalk wrote:

Dear ...

Thank you for your email.

In the discussion on our Breakfast show about Irish people losing their
faith, John Waters made the comment about some atheists being among the
'stupidest' people he has met. After which presenter Shane Coleman
counteracted this comment by audibly laughing. I think this reaction
highlights that he did not condone such remarks about atheists.

I appreciate you bringing this matter to our attention at an editorial
level and I would like to take this opportunity to assure you that
Newstalk does not endorse any form of bigotry.

Kind regards

....

Rather than just laughing at him (which I didn't even hear, as my brain screamed WHAT DID HE JUST SAY?!?! at me) Waters should really have been pulled up on that remark imho (and, given his form, they should've expected him to come out with something stupid/offensive - maybe that was the idea - lots of texts to 53106 no doubt, ching ching!)

Dave!

Noticed the laugh at the time, but he seemed to be chuckling quite a bit along the lines of "oh, that John Waters! What will he say next?!"

Oh well, at least they replied, good stuff!

I'm determined to get a letter published, so wrote to the Irish Times again yesterday Wasn't in today's online letters page anyway!

Sir,

There has been a robust response to John Waters' recent article ("Surveying religious conviction is meaningless", 10th August) on the WIN-Gallup/Red C poll, the results of which indicate a significant decline in religious self-identification in Ireland. If his August 3rd column ("Internet is debasing our public discourse") is anything to go by, then I'm quite sure that Mr. Waters will be blissfully unaware of the 700-odd comments on your website responding to his writings. Perhaps he reads your letters page (the print edition, naturally), so I'll take my chances here.

Within the opening 4 paragraphs of his article, Mr. Waters has dismissed a poll of in excess of 50,000 people. He states that "The only vaguely reliable element of these findings as far as Ireland is concerned is that referring to 'convinced atheists'...", which naturally leads one to wonder what is so anomalous about Ireland that the respondents in the other countries surveyed were apparently capable of making the appropriate choice for them, but not the Irish? The countries which had the highest number of atheist respondents include China, Japan, Czech Republic and France, while the most religious populations were found in Ghana, Nigeria, Armenia, Iraq and others. Mr. Waters has not raised any questions about these results, which are broadly in line with what we know from prior surveys and Census figures. How does the poll so accurately reflect the religiosity of these other countries, while getting it so wrong (as is John's suggestion) in the case of Ireland?

Mr. Waters continues in his column to assert that "[the poll] was conducted and published with a certain ideological agenda in mind. This...would most likely have been clear also to many of the people surveyed, as they answered the questions." With no substantiation whatsoever, John casts serious aspersions on a survey by highly regarded and respected pollsters. The question asked of respondents -- "Irrespective of whether you attend a place of worship or not, would you say you are a religious person, not a religious person or a convinced atheist?" -- is pretty clear, and there is no suggestion of an agenda contained within, so if he has other information then he should provide it to back up his claim. John's other criticisms of the poll include suggestions that "religious" implies "excessively religious", which is completely unfounded: the distinction between "a religious person" and "not a religious person" is quite clear, so someone even mildly religious would surely choose the former. The poll is even generous enough to include those nominal Catholics who only go to mass on special occasions. The results show that zero percent of those polled refused to answer, or chose "Don't know", so they were choosing one of three clear options.

Mr. Waters' broader point is that a mere poll could not possibly account for the nuances of people's individual beliefs, along with the suggestion that religion is too mystical or mysterious to be measured "through media as limited and limiting as words and numbers." Did he raise objections to such simplistic readings of "the greatest possible understanding of human possibility" (religion, as opaquely defined by John) when poll and Census figures were showing an overwhelmingly Catholic country, with no indication that anyone else (bar a handful of Protestants) existed on the island? We may not be able to draw a graph charting the unique understanding that each person has of "God", but you can be sure we can record how many say that they believe in one.

Whatever their understanding of God is, what is undeniable from this survey is that there has been a massive decrease in those who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as described by the major religious bodies in this country.

Yours, etc.,