Less than half of Irish people consider themselves religious

amadain17

Colmustard wrote: »

A typical atheist view, this is what I am talking about. I make a point as to my feelings and I commit a sin against the church of atheism. Forgive me.

You make a point to your feelings and I respond with my feelings. Am I a figurehead now? Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. For a lot of people that lack of belief came from actually looking at the available evidence. Does it really piss you off when people point out that this is no evidence to back the claims of one of the most powerful institutions in the state?

amadain17

Colmustard wrote: »

A typical atheist view, this is what I am talking about. I make a point as to my feelings and I commit a sin against the church of atheism. Forgive me.

Also do you actually think that a thread entitled 'Less than half of Irish people consider themselves religious' should not contain any religious/non-religious opinions simply because opinions other than yours simply piss you off?

Colmustard

amadain17 wrote: »

You make a point to your feelings and I respond with my feelings. Am I a figurehead now? Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. For a lot of people that lack of belief came from actually looking at the available evidence. Does it really piss you off when people point out that this is no evidence to back the claims of one of the most powerful institutions in the state?

Awwww did I offend your church are you going to have me stoned. You's are becoming more a religion everyday with your utopian dreams of a better atheistic society, you even have your celebrity saints, Dawkins, Hitchens, Fry, Pinker etc etc.

Are you one of these "spiritual" atheists, well I am not I have no spiritual beliefs, I don't believe in them.

But I agree with John Gray over Dawkin's and Pinker. Religion is in our genetic make up, it has been with us in all places for all time since modern humans evolved (probably 75,000 years ago). You place a bunch of children on a desert Island without cultural interference. they will naturally develop a form of communication and grammar, a sexuality and religion.

You can be as atheistic as you think you are but you hit your thumb with a hammer you will scream a profanity at some "imagined" deity.

scholar007

I wouldn't consider myself that religious, thanks be to God!

Colmustard

amadain17 wrote: »

Also do you actually think that a thread entitled 'Less than half of Irish people consider themselves religious' should not contain any religious/non-religious opinions simply because opinions other than yours simply piss you off?

I believe I am allowed to express an opinion on topic in any thread in AH unless I am banned from doing so.

So now you are forming atheistic commandments.

Dyr

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Vast majority of witch burning was Protestant.

Sure the Protestantism would turn anyone to witchcraft

Duggys Housemate

Bambi wrote: »

Sure the Protestantism would turn anyone to witchcraft

Dyr

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

It's mad stuff altogether, they're repressed to f**k for religious types. At least the papists let their hair down with all sorts of supernatural hijinks

Mr Benevolent

Dave! wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/survey-claims-many-irish-people-are-questioning-faith-562085.html



http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/news/ireland-drops-in-religious-countries-survey/


Interesting!

Would like to know more about the details of this survey, but it seems to be only reported on 3 news sites at the moment.

Why is this interesting? Isn't it extremely obvious?

Osgoodisgood

Colmustard wrote: »

But I agree with John Gray over Dawkin's and Pinker. Religion is in our genetic make up

No it's really not. Catchy phrase though.

You place a bunch of children on a desert Island without cultural interference. they will naturally develop a form of communication and grammar, a sexuality and religion.

Possibly. Add a decent library to the mix however and the chislers won't be so quick to blame the sky-fairies for the lightning and thunder.

TwoShedsJackson

syndeyfife wrote: »

Ill be shot for this, I consider myself Catholic and religious. I havent been to mass in years. I stopped going for personal reasons but I am planning on going again in the near future.

Here's where I sound crazy (and even crazier for knowing it sounds crazy)....

But no matter what life throws at me, I automatically jump to religion. Sh*t hits the fan and I find myself praying. It really does get me through hard times.

You can tell me it would have happened anyway, and I dont believe in any of that horse crap on psychics and the other world etc, but I genuinely believe in God.

*nutcase*

http://www.aaanything.net/wp-content/gallery/motivate-last-week-of-march/prayer_like_chronic_gambling_you_never_talk_about_your_losses.jpg

Colmustard

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

No it's really not. Catchy phrase though.



Possibly. Add a decent library to the mix however and the chislers won't be so quick to blame the sky-fairies for the lightning and thunder.

But there are decent libraries and information sources and most the world still does religion.

As for the genetic influences for religion just google it, its old science now and pretty much accepted, I picked this article from the New Scientist.


http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2Fdn7147-genes-contribute-to-religious-inclination.html&ei=ftAjUL2GE4O3hAeu_oDoCg&usg=AFQjCNGKMWpbDrwdUAx-KpUKr8x6v-gQAg&sig2=wbcaPudidxIvQw8DteZpIg

Osgoodisgood

Colmustard wrote: »

But there are decent libraries and information sources and most the world still does religion.

Yes indeed but you said "without cultural interference". Most of the world does religion because their parents did and encouraged them to do it too.
If there were no religion currently being passed from generation to generation and we still had our full scientific bank of knowledge do you think it's likely that anyone could conjure up the bible and successfully peddle it round the developed nations?

As for the genetic influences for religion just google it, its old science now and pretty much accepted

It's widely disputed and is very far from accepted science.

1ZRed

Then you look at New Zealand which has roughly the same population, and 2/3 of the people identify as 'no religion' on the census. In comparison here where 83% or so put down catholic but actually way way less then that are actually religious, as in practising and not just putting it down just because.

I wouldn't mind but a good chunk of those NZers could be saying they're religious as well on the official census.


Wtf is up with this country?

Colmustard

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Yes indeed but you said "without cultural interference". Most of the world does religion because their parents did and encouraged them to do it too.
If there were no religion currently being passed from generation to generation and we still had our full scientific bank of knowledge do you think it's likely that anyone could conjure up the bible and successfully peddle it round the developed nations?



It's widely disputed and is very far from accepted science.

But you admit without cultural interference there is part of the human mind that will find religion. My parents are very religious I am a non believer I am the atheist in the foxhole. Because I find it easy to be.

It is less disputed now as you can see the areas in the brain light up in MRI scanners when they did those studies, the humanity of religion is hard to deny for the pure reason of how widespread it is and in all time. I don't think there ever was an example of an atheistic tribe anytime in our history.

So you can suggest that we all should suppress our genetic religious tendencies but they just surface someplace else. Their are examples of attempted atheistic societies Communist Russia and China but they ended up worshipping tyrants.

Pace2008

syndeyfife wrote: »

Ill be shot for this, I consider myself Catholic and religious. I havent been to mass in years. I stopped going for personal reasons but I am planning on going again in the near future.

Here's where I sound crazy (and even crazier for knowing it sounds crazy)....

But no matter what life throws at me, I automatically jump to religion. Sh*t hits the fan and I find myself praying. It really does get me through hard times.

You can tell me it would have happened anyway, and I dont believe in any of that horse crap on psychics and the other world etc, but I genuinely believe in God.

*nutcase*

If you find that praying gives you comfort and heps you through hard times then that's good and I wouldn't want to take that away from you.

But understand that a belief in a God and prayer is not exclusive to Catholicism, in fact it probably applies to several thousand religions. Due to our culture and Ireland's rather homogenous religious scene, there seems to be an attitude that having a vague belief in a higher power constitutes being a Roman Catholic.

In reality, being a Roman Cathlic means you should strive to follow instruction from the Church in Rome. It's not simply about being a good person or going to mass once in a blue moon. Sinning is expected but a Catholic should attempt to avoid it and recognise where they've stayed from the path. And yes, this includes sex outside marriage, use of contraception and all the other trapping of modern life self-professed Catholics see as acceptable.

Basically:

Belief in a higher power = spirtual/religious
Belief in the Judeo Christian God of the bible and Jesus = Christian
The above + attempting to follow Catholic doctrine, as laid out in the Church's Catechism = Catholic

Stompbox

Colmustard wrote: »

But you admit without cultural interference there is part of the human mind that will find religion. My parents are very religious I am a non believer I am the atheist in the foxhole. Because I find it easy to be.

It is less disputed now as you can see the areas in the brain light up in MRI scanners when they did those studies, the humanity of religion is hard to deny for the pure reason of how widespread it is and in all time. I don't think there ever was an example of an atheistic tribe anytime in our history.

So you can suggest that we all should suppress our genetic religious tendencies but they just surface someplace else. Their are examples of attempted atheistic societies Communist Russia and China but they ended up worshipping tyrants.

What is your argument exactly?

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

Religious people p1ss me off, but atheists p1ss me off even more. I would regard myself as a non-believer but I never evangelised that. I really don't care about peoples beliefs or non-beliefs as long as they shut up about it and don't interfere with my life.

But they do interfere with your life. Religious groups lobby governments and influence all kinds of groups of people. If you where from the country you would see how influential the local priest is. Of course Atheists do suffer from the same humanity that encourages religious people to save non believers from eternal damnation. Atheist have seen the light in their own way and do fall into the same trap of trying to save believers from a life wasted on fairy tails.

I have time for spirituality and some religion. I think religion played an important role in the evolution of humanity, it was pretty much science early beta. The realisation that the world worked in harmony and that we could be more than the sum of our parts was huge in it's day but I've no time for religion any more. It's not that I want to convert people away from religion, I just don't want religious dogma to have any influence in my life. I like to deal with things practically and logically and religion just gets in the way.

Colmustard wrote: »

But I agree with John Gray over Dawkin's and Pinker. Religion is in our genetic make up, it has been with us in all places for all time since modern humans evolved (probably 75,000 years ago).

Religion developed over time, it started off small as a way to understand how the world worked and protect our minds from the knowledge of our own death (something most animals can't appreciate) and grew out of all proportion. It's like anything humans do, someone has a good idea, the next guy embellishes it, the next guy adds to it for profit and then a few crazy people take it all way to seriously.

You place a bunch of children on a desert Island without cultural interference. they will naturally develop a form of communication and grammar, a sexuality and religion.

No they won't, we have many examples of feral children not developing into fully fledged humans. A lot of human behaviour is learned. We're not born with the ability to speak a language, we're not even born with the ability to walk upright without being taught if feral children are anything to go by.


People can believe whatever they like but in the real world when someone wants to fix a problem with prayer I lose a little bit of respect for them.

purplepanda

So Ireland is becoming like England?

Not ultra religious as such, but families still get their children baptised in the local church, couples get married, some even asking the minister to tone down the religious aspects of the service, & most people are still eventually having a christian burial or cremation.

In fact most only go to church services for the occasions above :pac:

ScumLord

purplepanda wrote: »

So Ireland is becoming like England?

Not ultra religious as such, but families still get their children baptised in the local church, couples get married, some even asking the minister to tone down the religious aspects of the service, & most people are still eventually having a christian burial or cremation.

In fact most only go to church services for the occasions above :pac:

That's one aspect of religion that is sorely missed. People have lost a communal bond, and in many ways I can't think of a better way of dealing with a death other than with a funeral.

One thing about a Catholic funeral that disgusts me though is how the priest will inevitably high jack the event to push the god agenda.

Zebra3

ScumLord wrote: »

One thing about a Catholic funeral that disgusts me though is how the priest will inevitably high jack the event to push the god agenda.

Shock horror!!! Religious funeral promoting religion!!! Whatever next?

If people don't want religious crap in their funeral have a secular one instead.

Simple as.

ScumLord

Zebra3 wrote: »

Shock horror!!! Religious funeral promoting religion!!! Whatever next?

If people don't want religious crap in their funeral have a secular one instead.

Simple as.

Yes just after a family member has died suddenly that's going to be a real option. Your trying to appease everybody and the family are in a poor position to actually try and get some sort of funeral sorted other than the Catholic one. It's pretty much impossible to organise a secular funeral at short notice and in the end you just give up and let the priest lie about how great of a Catholic they where so they can actually get buried.

Dave!

In fairness if you want separation of Church and State, then the Catholic Church doesn't have to accept any responsibility as "the official burial partner of the Irish State". If you organise a funeral and burial through the Catholic Church, then they're under no obligation to appease non-Christians; it should be expected that they'll push their agenda, as is their right. It's unfortunate that they're the default organisation for funerals, but there are other options available, and if a person hasn't made their wishes clear to their family, or the family opts for a Christian burial, then that's how it goes.

Zebra3

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes just after a family member has died suddenly that's going to be a real option. Your trying to appease everybody and the family are in a poor position to actually try and get some sort of funeral sorted other than the Catholic one. It's pretty much impossible to organise a secular funeral at short notice and in the end you just give up and let the priest lie about how great of a Catholic they where so they can actually get buried.

Well, if the deceased didn't want a religious spoof funeral, he/she should have stated so in their will and left instructions instead of just letting the paedos pocket from another nixer.

ScumLord

Zebra3 wrote: »

Well, if the deceased didn't want a religious spoof funeral, he/she should have stated so in their will and left instructions instead of just letting the paedos pocket from another nixer.

Do you have a will? Most people don't, I'd say most people that die don't consider their funerals at all, unless they have a long term terminal illness. There really is no alternative to a Catholic mass in this country, especially if you live outside of Dublin and Cork.

Zebra3

ScumLord wrote: »

Do you have a will? Most people don't, I'd say most people that die don't consider their funerals at all, unless they have a long term terminal illness. There really is no alternative to a Catholic mass in this country, especially if you live outside of Dublin and Cork.

Yep, I do have a will. No way I'd have anything to do with the child rapists and torturers of the Roman church in life or in death.

Some people really need to get a grip of themselves and stop seeing the paedos as the default for the big occasions in life and death.

hairyprincess

This thread makes me really sad

Nodin

hairyprincess wrote: »

This thread makes me really sad

because.....?

BetterCallSaul

I was born and raised Catholic, used to go to mass every Sunday until I was about 14. It was a long time after I stopped believing before I felt fully comfortable calling myself an atheist though. I'm not sure why exactly, but I think it has something to do with the fear factor approach that is used to teach a kid about religion.

Some people just never fully break away from that. I have friends who say they don't believe in God but if I called them an atheist they would get really offended, like, just in case there happens to be some god dude out there that might hear it. Ya never know :pac:

paddy147

Katie Taylor thanked God and Jesus for being in her life,after winning gold today.

She said it a fair few times today in fact.

Nodin

paddy147 wrote: »

Katie Taylor thanked God and Jesus for being in her life,after winning gold today.

She said it a fair few times today in fact.

Yes. Your point being....?

BetterCallSaul

paddy147 wrote: »

Katie Taylor thanked God and Jesus for being in her life,after winning gold today.

She said it a fair few times today in fact.

And people say there's no evidence :pac:

I reckon she has got a few too many bangs on the head

paddy147

Nodin wrote: »

Yes. Your point being....?

Woah there tonto..relax.


She not afraid to say it publicly as that what she believes in and that is what makes her the person she is.

So fair play to her for it.

fryup

ScumLord wrote: »

Do you have a will? Most people don't, I'd say most people that die don't consider their funerals at all, unless they have a long term terminal illness. There really is no alternative to a Catholic mass in this country, especially if you live outside of Dublin and Cork.

yes there is

plenty of protestant churches, Jehovah witness places, mosques, etc

purplepanda

ScumLord wrote: »

One thing about a Catholic funeral that disgusts me though is how the priest will inevitably high jack the event to push the god agenda.

At my English Stepmoms recent funeral in East Anglia, the priest (from Dublin) spent 5 minutes denouncing Pagans to the assembled mourners. Much to the disgust of my brother who has strong Pagan beliefs :eek: A view I have some increasing empathy with myself

No way would he have denounced anyone from other Christian denominations nor any other major religion. Obviously Pagans are an easy target being outside the main religious establishment & other major world faiths.

In fact the silly old goat made a right show of himself in the process :pac:

Cú Giobach

purplepanda wrote: »

At my English Stepmoms recent funeral in East Anglia, the priest (from Dublin) spent 5 minutes denouncing Pagans to the assembled mourners. Much to the disgust of my brother who has strong Pagan beliefs :eek: A view I have some increasing empathy with myself

No way would he have denounced anyone from other Christian denominations nor any other major religion. Obviously Pagans are an easy target being outside the main religious establishment & other major world faiths.

In fact the silly old goat made a right show of himself in the process :pac:

I always found it interesting how many of the religious only accept other religions if they are very old, new ones just get scoffed at, paganism interestingly though does runs against this.
Most religious people would give a "roll eyes" at mention of Mormonism for example, because Joseph Smith had his "revelation" only recently in the 1820's. Though there seems no hard and fast rules as to how long ago one must have had a "revelation" or a chat with a deity, it does seem only ones that happened back in the mists of antiquity are actually valid.

I wonder did something happen in the heavens, some major incident possibly or maybe there was some divine proclamation I'm unaware of that forbade, or invalidated any more holy chats with us after a certain date.

DEFTLEFTHAND

ScumLord wrote: »

Do you have a will? Most people don't, I'd say most people that die don't consider their funerals at all, unless they have a long term terminal illness. There really is no alternative to a Catholic mass in this country, especially if you live outside of Dublin and Cork.

I think most people in this day and age do have a will really, it's irresponsible not to make one with the kind of trouble it ends up causing.

I agree that certain parts of the country may not readily cater for alternative funerals but these problems can be overcome. There is options out there, it's just something that you need to make provisions for while you're still here.

Skerries

purplepanda wrote: »

At my English Stepmoms recent funeral in East Anglia, the priest (from Dublin) spent 5 minutes denouncing Pagans to the assembled mourners. Much to the disgust of my brother who has strong Pagan beliefs :eek: A view I have some increasing empathy with myself

do you mean pagan or atheist?

philologos

For the record, asking if people are religious is a rubbish criteria for determining how many believe in God or accept traditional Christian belief.

Personally, I wouldn't define myself as being "religious" or even "devout" as these terms often have Pharasaic implications, or imply works based salvation.

Yet, I'm still a Christian.

The best polls on this subject clean out ask people if they believe in God, if they believe that Jesus was the Son of God, if they believe in a virgin birth, or a resurrection, that Jesus was crucified for their sins and so on. Of course they should ask how religious people feel, but it is a rubbish question for getting a full understanding of the subject.

Nodin wrote: »

Yes. Your point being....?

I suspect it's something to do with the fact that Christianity isn't going away any time soon, even in "secular Europe" it won't vanish. Globally it's growing in regions where it was not known widely before.

ScumLord wrote: »

One thing about a Catholic funeral that disgusts me though is how the priest will inevitably high jack the event to push the god agenda.

It disgusts you that a priest will discuss a Roman Catholic perspective on life and death at a Roman Catholic funeral?

Personally I think if someone wants to get buried in a Roman Catholic church then they are entitled to discuss RCC theology on life and death. Is it not allowed to discuss God in a church? In fairness, when I croak, I'd be very disappointed if my minister didn't talk about Jesus, or the need for mankind to know Him personally

philologos

BetterCallSaul wrote: »

And people say there's no evidence :pac:

I reckon she has got a few too many bangs on the head

Yes everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be stupid?

New atheist rhetoric is absolutely obnoxious. Hopefully sensible people will see through it.

Cú Giobach

philologos wrote: »

Yes everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be stupid?

New atheist rhetoric is absolutely obnoxious. Hopefully sensible people will see through it.

What is this "new atheist" thing that gets bandied about so much these days?
We have been around for quite a while, is it that in pre-internet days you were just unaware of our existence and didn't read the writings of, or hear such people before?

I've been called a "new atheist" many times in the last 2/3 years for saying the exact same things I have been saying for 30 years, bit odd don't you think.
A better phrase would be "newly discovered by the religious, atheism".

philologos

Cú Giobach wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

Yes everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be stupid?

New atheist rhetoric is absolutely obnoxious. Hopefully sensible people will see through it.

What is this "new atheist" thing that gets bandied about so much these days?
We have been around for quite a while, is it that in pre-internet days you were just unaware of our existence and didn't read the writings of, or hear such people before?

I've been called a "new atheist" many times in the last 2/3 years for saying the exact same things I have been saying for 30 years, bit odd don't you think.
A better phrase would be "newly discovered by the religious, atheism".

It refers to the discourse following Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett as opposed to atheism which was argued on a philolosophical level in the 20th century like William Rowe and J.L Mackie.

Cienciano

My friends mother is about 75, she was is catholic all her life. Or so I thought. She still goes to mass twice a week, so natural to assume she still considers herself catholic.
We were talking about it and she said she's not catholic at all any more. The reason? I think it was the stories in the bible, which ones are taken literally, and which ones aren't. At what point does a story lose it's literal meaning and become symbolic for something else? And what about in the past when people were put to death for questioning these stories? Does god ring the pope on his golden telephone (presumably it's solid gold) and tell him if a story has been downgraded to a metaphor?
She still goes to mass out of habit, and because she still sort of believes in god and wants to pray to him in a church enviroment.

Cú Giobach

philologos wrote: »

It refers to the discourse following Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett as opposed to atheism which was argued on a philolosophical level in the 20th century like William Rowe and J.L Mackie.

My point being there is nothing "new" about it.
It's just a logical conclusion that many (like myself) have come to for quite a while now, due to discovering that things like the formation of stars and planets for example are natural events and saying deities created them is indeed quite silly and the teaching and spreading of such ideas is quite a negative thing.
There is nothing "new" about these ideas and realisations.

The only time I was ever a "new atheist" was when I first realised that what I had been taught as a kid was bunkum, and that was, as I said 30 years ago.
Pretty bad and inaccurate turn of phrase if you ask me.

Cienciano

philologos wrote: »

Yes everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be stupid?

New atheist rhetoric is absolutely obnoxious. Hopefully sensible people will see through it.

After 2000 years of being killed or their lives being made a misery for saying what he said, i think it's great that we can finally openly say what we feel. Same way you can call him obnoxious, and no one bats an eyelid.

Cienciano

philologos wrote: »

I suspect it's something to do with the fact that Christianity isn't going away any time soon, even in "secular Europe" it won't vanish. Globally it's growing in regions where it was not known widely before.

Its falling in first world countries, and when a country becomes truely secular, it will fall even more. Interesting to see how low it will drop in ireland when parents that haven't been to a church in 20 years have to organise communion/confession/confirmation in their own time.

scoob70

Wow.

The hostility on this thread. And this is why we have the problems that we have to today in the world because people can't respect each others beliefs .

Shenshen

philologos wrote: »

Yes everyone who disagrees with you must automatically be stupid?

New atheist rhetoric is absolutely obnoxious. Hopefully sensible people will see through it.

As opposed to religious rethoric, like John Waters calling atheists "the stupid people in Ireland" on newstalk recently?

Shenshen

scoob70 wrote: »

Wow.

The hostility on this thread. And this is why we have the problems that we have to today in the world because people can't respect each others beliefs .

As opposed to .... when, exactly? When have people with beliefs ever respected those without, or with different beliefs?

Ush1

scoob70 wrote: »

Wow.

The hostility on this thread. And this is why we have the problems that we have to today in the world because people can't respect each others beliefs .

Why should we respect peoples beliefs and what's the problems it is causing?