Pussy Riot and Russia

nehemiah

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And if he wasn't so goddam photogenic (swoon)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How do you know he didn't?

I think you really mean 'In this day and age with instant communications, accessibility through the use of social media and joe bloggs commentary, the likes of Che Guervara would not be so liked as he is today'

20Cent

Harsh unjust sentence. Good job all those who publicised the case there was a demo on O'Connell St about it this morning fair play to them. Could have been a lot worse without all the attention ordinary citizens around the world focused on it.

RATM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's the bit where your point becomes moot

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Lantus

3 young women who dare to stand up to establishment by 'dancing' and get 2 years in jail. What a stupid bunch of savages humans are incarcerating these young people.

The head of the russian church has stated that putin was appointed by God which just goes to show how myth orientated these people have been brought up to be.

20Cent

Lantus wrote: »

3 young women who dare to stand up to establishment by 'dancing' and get 2 years in jail. What a stupid bunch of savages humans are incarcerating these young people.

The head of the russian church has stated that putin was appointed by God which just goes to show how myth orientated these people have been brought up to be.

The whole charity and forgiveness bits of the bible must have passed them by.

RDM_83 again

TBH is this all not a bit of a non story really where it matters, inside Russia, was there not a broad consensus among opinion polls that they should be punished (now obviously that not saying that courts should follow the will of the people but it does matter in terms of politics).
Has anyone really had their mind changed by this, either here or in the west, those that think Putin is a thug thought it before this case, those that think he's a "strong leader" etc will still think it.
To me the coverage brings to mind the velvet revolution coverage overly simplistic and ignoring complexities and opinions on the ground (I'm no expert on Russia btw)

As i said in AH I don;t think these art student based PopArt/Spirit of 1968 style protests and movements ever really achieve anything

This doesn;t change the fact that two years in the gulag is very harsh (though I presume they may have priors from previous actions though don;t know)

southsiderosie

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

When is this not the case though?

Rosa Parks wasn't the first black woman to be arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a white person; a few weeks earlier, a teenage girl was arrested for the same thing. But Parks was a middle aged schoolteacher heading home from work, while the teenage girl was pregnant out of wedlock; i.e. Parks was a more 'respectable' face to put on the movement.

This isn't just a tactic of the left either: look at the whole 'Joe the Plumber' nonsense from the 2008 election: here was a white, working class guy who hard earned money was going to be taken away by liberals who were just going to spend it on welfare for people who didn't want to work. Republican spin doctors could not have dreamed up a better figurehead to rally behind in that election.

Eggy Baby!

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Lol,

All I see here is a random attack on the left.

By the way, I supplied polls earlier that correlated to a desire among the Russian public to either:

A: See serious punishment (incarceration for at least a year)
or
B: Moderate punishment amounting to community service, a large fine et al.

So technically a popular will has been expressed here. Maybe not our popular will, but of the Russians? You bet. If I'm honest, this case never really had much attention in Russia aside from the usual "opposition" figures deifying the girls.

This doesn;t change the fact that two years in the gulag is very harsh (though I presume they may have priors from previous actions though don;t know)

The Gulag system was abolished over 50 years ago.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eggy Baby!

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Changed my post a bit, sorry about that.

Nodin

Higher wrote: »

If the lead singer wasn't so attractive this would have been a non-story irrespective of Putin's OTT reaction.

I have my doubts on that.


Two years for this is farcical, I might add.

Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

....yet could also be seen as a convenient cover for sniping at left wing sympathies generally, using these unfortunate young women as a vehicle.

Eggy Baby!

The Guardian have been obsessed with the Pussy Riot trial these last few weeks. Basically all their news on Russia consists of following this one trial. They smell an opportunity to Putinbash like a shark smells blood!

My opinion-

Two years is too much. Way too much. Whether or not Putin twiddled his evil octopus-tentacles to get this sentence handed down, I don't know. Maybe the judges intended to impress him in some way or another? We can only guess. I doubt the women will fill their full sentence, but time will tell.

I'm sure Putin is delighted with retaining the strong Orthodox electorate in his camp, however.

Two years is too much but they are attention seeking clowns so I have no sympathy, absolutely no reason to disrespect peoples church like that.

You just have to listen to the leaders husband on ch4 news today, new age hippies getting their comeuppance and don't like the consequences.

RedRightHand

Higher wrote: »

If the lead singer wasn't so attractive this would have been a non-story irrespective of Putin's OTT reaction.

Take her if you want, she scares the shiite out of me. I've seen her referred to as 'Russia's Jane Fonda', which is unfair as she's far better looking and more intelligent than Fonda. It's a pity that she couldn't apply herself to something more constructive than museum orgies and church sacrilege.

Kinski

RedRightHand wrote: »

Take her if you want, she scares the shiite out of me. I've seen her referred to as 'Russia's Jane Fonda', which is unfair as she's far better looking and more intelligent than Fonda. It's a pity that she couldn't apply herself to something more constructive than museum orgies and church sacrilege.

It's Nadezhda Tolokonnikova people are referring to here, I assume? Tbh the bit in bold makes me even more attracted to her.

And in all seriousness, this is a disgraceful judgement, but sadly one that is very far from having no precedent in Russia or the wider world.

Nodin

Jasmine Kind Rebellion wrote: »

Two years is too much but they are attention seeking clowns so I have no sympathy, absolutely no reason to disrespect peoples church like that.

You just have to listen to the leaders husband on ch4 news today, new age hippies getting their comeuppance and don't like the consequences.

....you see theres this thing about punishment being commensurate to the crime. Nor do I see how your labelling of the husband of one of them has any bearing on the procedings.

Eggy Baby!

Weird signals coming from the Orthodox Church:

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740

Moscow, August 17, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church has asked the Russian authorities "to show mercy within the law towards the convicted" Pussy Riot members in the hope that they will renounce a repeat of blasphemous actions, the Supreme Church Council said in a statement issued in Moscow on Friday.

Vladimir Lukin, Human Rights Ombudsman for Russia, says:

...he would consider a possible appeal from the Pussy Riot members.

And that he made clear this consideration to Putin, who "heard him".

http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/08/16/putin_hears_ombudsman_opinion_about_pussy_riot_case_17420.html

Eggy Baby!

(though I presume they may have priors from previous actions though don;t know)

Last January they protested Putin in Red Square and were arrested for unauthorized demonstration, held a couple of hours, fined and then set free.

Brussels Sprout

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

And that he made clear this consideration to Putin, who "heard him".

He couldn't sound more subservient if he tried

Eggy Baby!

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

He couldn't sound more subservient if he tried

Actually, Putin said he "heard him", not Lukin.

Brussels Sprout

One minute Gary Kasparov is being interviewed by foregin media, the next he's being bundled into a bus by police. I wasn't a fan of what Pussy Riot did but I've nothing but admiration for people who protest on the street. Doing that in Russia is a far different thing to doing it in London or New York especially given the new draconian fining laws.

Worztron

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

One minute Gary Kasparov is being interviewed by foregin media, the next he's being bundled into a bus by police. I wasn't a fan of what Pussy Riot did but I've nothing but admiration for people who protest on the street. Doing that in Russia is a far different thing to doing it in London or New York especially given the new draconian fining laws.

It was discraceful the way they hauled Garry Kasparov away. They gave no reason. I guess even saying the slightest thing against Putin or his government is now forbidden.
I think the fines for protesting are even worse in other European countries.

cyberhog

Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille

Demonstrators protesting at Russia’s jailing of punk band Pussy Riot were arrested by police in the southern French city of Marseille for breaking France’s controversial law against face-covering garments.

...

France’s foreign ministry described Pussy Riot’s balaclava-clad performance in a Moscow church as “minor acts” and, like the US, Germany, the UK and several other countries, condemned the verdict as an attack on the freedom of expression.

But protesters in Marseille who donned balaclavas in solidarity with the three young women - Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Maria Alyokhina and Yekaterina Samutsevich – were rounded up after just 10 minutes outside the Russian consulate in the city, the local paper La Provence reports.

http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

Einhard

cyberhog wrote: »

Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille



http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

Good old cyberhog, never misses a chance to have a go at the West. Surprised you didn't manage to work Israel and the US into the post, but I'm sure you'll manage it somehow. Just for you, I'll point out that the protestors in Frnce were not arrested for protesting but for covering their faces in a public, in contravention of a law which was designed to safeguard women's rights. It's not a law I agree with, but it bears no comparison to what happened and happens in Russia, where speaking against Putin and the government is risky business indeed. It's really quite increible how your entire political agenda, and it seems sometimes, your moral compass, is predicated entirely on having a go at the West.

JustinDee

cyberhog wrote: »

Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
You are a "westerner".

If you can't tell the difference between public order offences and the story in question, then as per usual, far too subjectively and myopically so.
Typical for a "westerner" really
Change the record, whoever you are. Getting tedious.


.

Nodin

cyberhog wrote: »

.............

Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

Funny, I can't remember a similar incident in "the West". You'll doubtless be able to remind me of one.

cyberhog

I see the usual apologists and head-in-the-sand types are working double time in this thread... getting their panties worked up over the exposure of Western hypocrisy.

You lot think Western leaders are not hypocrites? Then lets see you try to explain away the following news story.


Bahrain Imprisons Human Rights Leader for 3 years

Joe Stork, Human Rights Watch deputy director for its Middle East/North Africa division, said:

"The government has yet to show that Nabeel Rajab did any more than exercise his right to free expression and peaceful assembly. He should be set free, not sent away from his family to prison."

Human Rights First director Brian Dooley said:

"Even those of us who have followed Bahrain's violent crackdown on human rights are shocked by today's move," he said. "It's a breathtakingly bad decision, showing that the regime's rhetoric about reform and reconciliation is a sham. The charges are patently politically-motivated, and designed to silence him."

The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans of Pussy Riot but not a word about 3 year sentence imposed on a true champion of human rights.

Rajab explains below why the Western hypocrites are silent.

In a video interview shortly before his arrest last month, Mr. Rajab told the Irish human rights group Front Line Defenders that the presence of the United States Navy’s Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain, made the struggle against the monarchy more difficult. “Because they have the support of the United States, they have the support, or the silence, of the international community, that is seen here as a green signal, that’s why they are proceeding — more repression, more attacks against human rights defenders.”

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/bahrain-sentences-activist-to-3-years-in-prison-for-inciting-protests/

In other news British trained Bahraini forces have beaten to death a 16-year-old boy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/bahrain-boy-killed-in-clashes-with-police/story-fn3dxix6-1226453110771

And as usual there is no condemnation from the West.

Nodin

cyberhog wrote: »

....................


The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans ....................

"degenerate"? Do please explain what you mean.

RedRightHand

Supporting Pussy Riot is safe, even if they are called Pussy Riot. It allows people to show how opposed they are to the sacred being protected by law or anything else that implies respect for the Christian tradition. Blasphemy laws are almost always impossible to frame or enforce, premeditated political stunts in church are an exception. I wonder how many celebrities will be outraged by THIS, a clear example of real injustice.

JustinDee

Yes 'cyberhog', tilt it all you like, you big bad westerner you.
Moral relativism doesn't actually make your ill-informed post any more credible. Just as hypocritical as you slam others as being.

Eggy Baby!

cyberhog wrote: »

Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille



http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

cyberhog, please keep the debate focused on Russia.

You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
You are a "westerner".

Sorry but does that really matter? I presume he meant western governments, just saying. Not agreeing with his attempt to change the subject or anything but your random assault isn't really much better.

in contravention of a law which was designed to safeguard women's rights.

Well no. It was designed to make France more secular actually.

Aaaaanyway...

Anyone think there is a chance of the girls getting a pardon?

The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans

Although many people I know term me as a Putin-lover, I would not term Pussy Riot as "degenerate".

Some things the girls were involved in when they were members of the group "Voina" were pretty disgusting though, such as organising an orgy between several couples in a public museum and recording it.

Deep Easterly

JustinDee wrote: »

You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
You are a "westerner".

Wow, some profound food for thought there! :eek:

Einhard

cyberhog wrote: »

I see the usual apologists and head-in-the-sand types are working double time in this thread... getting their panties worked up over the exposure of Western hypocrisy.

You lot think Western leaders are not hypocrites? Then lets see you try to explain away the following news story.


Bahrain Imprisons Human Rights Leader for 3 years




The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans of Pussy Riot but not a word about 3 year sentence imposed on a true champion of human rights.

Rajab explains below why the Western hypocrites are silent.



http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/bahrain-sentences-activist-to-3-years-in-prison-for-inciting-protests/

In other news British trained Bahraini forces have beaten to death a 16-year-old boy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/bahrain-boy-killed-in-clashes-with-police/story-fn3dxix6-1226453110771

And as usual there is no condemnation from the West.

I condemn all that cyberhog. All right-minded people should do so. The difference though, is that I condemn things that are wrong, you condemn only that which fits in with your anti-Western ideology. Hence, you're the true hypocrite.

Brussels Sprout

On a side note: I noticed while reading an article on this story that Russia was downgraded last year to the ranking of "authoritarian state" in the Democracy Index. This places them below such bastions of democracy as Pakistan, Venezuela, Cambodia and Niger.

RDM_83 again

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

On a side note: I noticed while reading an article on this story that Russia was downgraded last year to the ranking of "authoritarian state" in the Democracy Index. This places them below such bastions of democracy as Pakistan, Venezuela, Cambodia and Niger.

Hmmm there the same people that do those liveability indexes aren't they, I'm not saying its necessarily wrong but I've a deep dislike of simple lists and metrics that are developed by private companies and which rely heavily on 'expert opinions' rather than on the quantifiable information and open methods.

I'm curious about peoples views on this,is the general opinion that they should have been charged but not punished so severely? or that this is a valid protest even though it was located inside a religious building while a service was ongoing.

I also don;t believe that judicial over reaction is restricted to more authoritarian regimes, look at some of the sentences handed down in the english riots, 4 years for creating a facebook page encouraging people to riot (while drunk and removed the next day!)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/facebook-cases-criticism-riot-sentences

cyberhog

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

cyberhog, please keep the debate focused on Russia.

Well I happen to think it's relevant to point out that Western criticism of the Pussy Riot sentence stinks of hypocrisy.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I would not term Pussy Riot as "degenerate".

Having sex with a frozen chicken in a supermarket clearly meets the definition.


degeneracy
3. Corrupt, vulgar, vicious behavior, especially sexual perversion.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/degeneracy

cyberhog

Einhard wrote: »

I condemn all that cyberhog. All right-minded people should do so.

And yet we haven't heard any condemnation from Western leaders. So by your logic Obama, Cameron, and their cohorts are not "right-minded people" but then you jump to their defense if anyone dares to "have a go at the West". You know it's hard to take you seriously when you can't even present a consistent argument.

Nodin

cyberhog wrote: »

..........

Having sex with a frozen chicken in a supermarket clearly meets the definition.

degeneracy
3. Corrupt, vulgar, vicious behavior, especially sexual perversion.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/degeneracy

So you believe in Governments enforcing a strict moral code then?

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

OK, we get it. The West sucks. Since that horse was flogged to death some time ago, can we all move on please?

Eggy Baby!

On a side note: I noticed while reading an article on this story that Russia was downgraded last year to the ranking of "authoritarian state" in the Democracy Index. This places them below such bastions of democracy as Pakistan, Venezuela, Cambodia and Niger.

I could get you an academic democracy index in which Russia is ranked much higher, if you like?

The Democracy Index is so fraught with inexplicable stuff its hard to take it seriously. Almost as much as the Freedom House index was.

Having sex with a frozen chicken in a supermarket clearly meets the definition.

Source?

Brussels Sprout

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I could get you an academic democracy index in which Russia is ranked much higher, if you like?

I accept your offer.

abrr1000

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

But the protest was against Putin, and not the church.

The protest was not against Putin - that's what they're making it out to be now. What it was - those 3 idiots running into the church on easter service and shouting profanities at everyone present and exposing themselves...

It is not really fair to compare them to the rubber bandits in Ireland - they are entertainers not hooligans.

I think the state are right to punish such hooliganism it is disgusting and whatever they were "protesting" against - this "protest" was carried out in the most distasteful and undignified way.

I doubt they made anyone think - yeah these girls have a point...

Eggy Baby!

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I accept your offer.

http://http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/polity4.htm

Here you go. The Polity IV project home page. Scroll down a bit and you will see a coloured map. Those countries in dark blue are full democracies, those in red are autocracies (i.e "Authoritarian Regimes"). Light blues are democracies. Also mentioned are "middle ground" countries known as Anocracies. They are represented by the colours patterned with dots.

On the scale, +10 is a full democracy and -10 is the least democratic hereditary monarchy. Russia was +4 in 2010. Its score is extremely likely to increase if the Polity IV is updated to 2012.

http://http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/rus2.htm

(Notice that Russia is regarded as more democratic as of 2010 than it was during the "golden years" of Yeltsin)

Therefore Russia is currently classified as an "Open Anocracy".

(The drop in Russia's score in 2005 can be most definitely attributed to the removal of governor elections. As these have been restored, Russia's score technically has increased back to +6. A country with +6 or above is regarded as a democracy. -5 or below is an autocracy.)

It is not really fair to compare them to the rubber bandits in Ireland - they are entertainers not hooligans.

I didn't compare them to the personality of the Rubber Bandits, but rather, their physical appearance.

The protest was not against Putin - that's what they're making it out to be now.

The lyrics of the protest made it fairly evident it was against Putin, albeit expressed in a socially challenged and attention-seeking way.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nodin

abrr1000 wrote: »

The protest was not against Putin - that's what they're making it out to be now. What it was - those 3 idiots running into the church on easter service and shouting profanities at everyone present and exposing themselves...
............point...

You've some sources to back this up? Certainly its the first time I've heard it mentioned.

abrr1000

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/20/pussy-riot-punk-prayer-lyrics?newsfeed=true

Here you go - plenty of profanities and distastefulness.
There were families with children at this service - I think there are other places they could have made their protest if they have such strong feelings - but to shove it in everyone's face literally was just disgusting.