Una Bean Mhic Mhathuna - Foe of Modern Ireland

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I can't believe this thread is still going

Doc Ruby

Czarcasm wrote: »

Bigotry, racism, homophobia - rampant.

Looking down on the most vulnerable in society - rampant.

I'm seriously starting to wonder what country you're living in if you think the above is true, because it's not Ireland. You've all but managed to paint a 19th century punch cartoon here. The divorce thing maybe, but that's exactly what I'm talking about - any prejuidices against that will vanish with the grey vote, hopefully taking the institution of marriage itself down with them.

Czarcasm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm seriously starting to wonder what country you're living in if you think the above is true, because it's not Ireland. You've all but managed to paint a 19th century punch cartoon here. The divorce thing maybe, but that's exactly what I'm talking about - any prejuidices against that will vanish with the grey vote

I don't think there's any exaggeration in the picture I painted Doc tbh. I'm not one for hyperbole and extremes, and I can only talk about what I have read about and seen on a daily basis, things I have experienced, and the experiences other people have been gracious enough to share with me.

Prejudices won't vanish with the grey vote when I see how people younger than me are treated when they are going through separations and divorces, ain't no blue rinse brigade involved there, just people who care more about their status in society than they care about someone who is suffering.

hopefully taking the institution of marriage itself down with them.

Seriously Doc? At a time when the LGBT community are campaigning for marriage equality, you think the institution of marriage is going anywhere? It's not just RCs that get married, there are many other religions that involve marriage of some description, and hell, even my own was a civil marriage, which has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. Again, even when the blue rinse brigade are gone, people half my age will be planning on giving the family a day out with a white wedding!

Doc Ruby

Czarcasm wrote: »

I don't think there's any exaggeration in the picture I painted Doc tbh.

Okay, do share with us the location of the race riots, right wing nationalist parties, white supremacist movements and homosexual bashing which mar the cultures of our more enlightened European neighbours. No? Well I guess you must have been talking about a different country then, or are huffing nail polish.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Seriously Doc?

Yeah seriously, I've posted about this previously but short version, I don't approve of marriage.

Czarcasm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Okay, do share with us the location of the race riots, right wing nationalist parties, white supremacist movements and homosexual bashing which mar the cultures of our more enlightened European neighbours. No? Well I guess you must have been talking about a different country then, or are huffing nail polish.

Ahh Christ, y'know upon first reading of your post I thought "I'd love to invite him down to work with me for a day and listen to some of the people I listen to and talk to them and engage with them", but tbh Doc and I mean this in the nicest most polite way possible - I'm not sure I could listen to you.

I never said anything about the hyperbolic extremes you've gone to. Here in Ireland we're far more sinister about it, we've become very adept at sweeping things under the carpet, ignoring things that go on in front of our faces, and generally going about our daily lives trying our best to get through each day. It's easier for us to ignore issues and pretend they don't exist when they don't directly affect us.

All you're doing Doc is ignoring issues that you think will all be solved when the grey generation kicks the bucket. You honestly think there won't be any issues such as xenophobia, racism, homophobia, bigotry, etc, when the current generation gets to be the grey generation?

I don't want to say you're deluded, as it'd be rude, but, blinkered, misguided and idealistic wouldn't nearly do your opinion justice either.

Doc Ruby

Czarcasm wrote: »

Here in Ireland we're far more sinister about it

That's pretty paranoid; you claim that in Ireland there's rampant racism, bigotry and homophobia. If it's rampant it can hardly be sinister and swept under the carpet now can it. Or is it rampantly sinister? You want your cake and eat it son, and what a cake that is.

Our own history is one of being demonised by others for our ethnic backgrounds, our language and our culture, and say what you like about the Irish, we do have long memories when it comes to such things. We, as much as any nation can be referred to as we, have no delusions on the matter and aren't about to turn around and inflict the same treatment on others.

Hell there are still places where people will spit in your shadow for being Irish.

Czarcasm wrote: »

All you're doing Doc is ignoring issues that you think will all be solved when the grey generation kicks the bucket.

Oho, I never said that. I said we wouldn't know the place. I also said I hope we can take the best of both worlds. In fact I'm not sure you've read a single word I've written. I also didn't say there were no racists, homophobes, or bigots in this country, just that it's not a noticeable problem here barring the odd taxi driver and BNP shill trying to stir up Sentiment. Certainly less than in almost every other developed country.

pharmaton

While I would hope that in twenty or thirty years time these issues will be dealt with the benefit of having a more informed society, there are still some issues lurking around in the shadows, even here on boards (at least within AH and for those affected by certain issues) it is painfully obvious that there is a whole lot more going on beneath the surface. "Dole scroungers" and the "Single mother brigade" not to mention the acceptable gay jokes (some of which could very well be considered more sinister than they claim to be) and all carried out in what is still a fairly sexist environment.
I read a post here the other day which was almost word for word a reflection of mrs Mhic Mhathuna's personal feelings toward single mothers and it's still kind of shocking to hear it come from another persons mouth, (the thread was locked shortly after but it makes me realise that we haven't really come very far at all. A couple of years ago those threads were ten a penny. People still harbour issues the only difference is they are more inclined to keep them to themselves for fear of being rejected in public but in twenty years time they are the ones who will be the "grey vote". They really haven't gone away you know.

Czarcasm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

That's pretty paranoid; you claim that in Ireland there's rampant racism, bigotry and homophobia. If it's rampant it can hardly be sinister and swept under the carpet now can it. Or is it rampantly sinister? You want your cake and eat it son, and what a cake that is.

It's not paranoia Doc to say that just because an attitude isn't immediately obvious when you don't see it, that it doesn't exist. I'm not going out of my way to look for it everywhere either, it's just "there"! It's an undercurrent, an attitude towards other people, very hard to put into words or explain, but when you see it, you know it.

Our own history is one of being demonised by others for our ethnic backgrounds, our language and our culture, and say what you like about the Irish, we do have long memories when it comes to such things. We, as much as any nation can be referred to as we, have no delusions on the matter and aren't about to turn around and inflict the same treatment on others.

You still think just take one example that's more relevant to this thread - you still think single mothers aren't looked down upon in society? Very much so they are, and nothing to do with religion either, just their social status.

Hell there are still places where people will spit in your shadow for being Irish.

People will spit in your shadow for lots of reasons, that's my point.

Oho, I never said that. I said we wouldn't know the place. I also said I hope we can take the best of both worlds. In fact I'm not sure you've read a single word I've written. I also didn't say there were no racists, homophobes, or bigots in this country, just that it's not a noticeable problem here barring the odd taxi driver and BNP shill trying to stir up Sentiment. Certainly less than in almost every other developed country.

I'm taking in everything you're saying Doc, all I'm saying is that you see Irish society heading off in some utopian direction, whereas I see Irish society heading in pretty much the same direction as the UK, only with as you quite rightly point out, less extremism, because we just don't have the population size for extremist views to gain ground thank fcuk.

At least that's one small thing Irish society has in it's favour - The pervasive attitude is one of "go with the flow, we'll ride it out, shìt happens, we're doing our best, wait till we get the grey voters out of the way and then things will change, etc".


Things haven't changed as much in the last 30 years or so in Irish society as people might like to think they have, and that's only while I've been alive. Most people in Irish society didn't have so much as a pot to piss in in the 50's (OK so they had the straw in a bucket outside, but you get the idea). Has Irish society really changed all that much when there are a hell of a lot of people with still not so much as a pot to piss in and mental health issues such as depression and suicide are just as rampant as they were in the 50's, if not moreso?

I suppose you'll tell me I'm wrong about that too?

How far we've come indeed...

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're not confusing her with the other one, are you?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0807/332466-mine-bean-ui-chribin/

To be honest, I hope she is still alvie and can see the progress she tried to hard to prevent being made and the cruelty she tired so hard to condone being exposed for the evil that it is.

She failed. She lost. Good triumped over evil. I hope she's aware of it.

Yup I was confusing her with the other evil witch.

Wibbs

Czarcasm wrote: »

The church hasn't been relevant in Irish society for the last 20 years, so I really DO wonder what excuse society will come up with to justify their treatment of their fellow human beings in 20 years time.

Oh I agree 100% here. The church is and has been the whipping boy for all our collective ills. Oh don't get me wrong it well deserves a few lashes of the whip on a few levels, but people are all too quick to forget we were the church. We were all too happy as a society to bend to the crozier and the cassock. It did not operate in a vacuum. Plus it wasn't as if we were some cut off state either at the time. Through media and emigration we were well enough exposed to the wider world. At a time of colour tellies, pocket calculators, punk rock and package holidays* a million of us welcomed pope John Paul George Ringo at the Phoenix park alone.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm seriously starting to wonder what country you're living in if you think the above is true, because it's not Ireland.

Yea TBH I'm not seeing it either. Certainly not within an asses roar of such a bleak picture. All societies have their internal ills, we're no worse than most and a helluva lot better than many.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Things haven't changed as much in the last 30 years or so in Irish society as people might like to think they have, and that's only while I've been alive.

Well I've been alive for a little longer, a decade, give or take and I've seen major changes in Irish society. The religion thing is the most obvious, but attitudes have most definitely changed and mostly for the better. Coming out as gay today has it's trials yes, but the very thought of coming out in say 50's, 60's or even 70's Ireland would have been a whole other ballgame. Contraception? You couldn't even access it until the 80's and even then required a doctors note. Divorce? Didn't exist until the 80's unless you were able to wangle a church annulment(I knew of two that did). Working women were frowned upon and in the civil service had to give up working when they got married. Hell a husband could rape his wife with full protection/omission in law until 1990. Education? A lot fewer people went all the way to third level back in the day compared to now. That's just a sniff of the wider changes in Irish society in the last 30 years.

Most people in Irish society didn't have so much as a pot to piss in in the 50's (OK so they had the straw in a bucket outside, but you get the idea).

Outside of the post war boom in the US, most people in the wider west didn't have a pot to piss in in the 50's. The British still had rationing for feck sake and if it wasn't for the welfare state a lot of the place would have been near Dickensian in character and that was a country that had damn near ruled the world for two centuries. The communist states of Europe were fcuked. Germany was building itself up from the rubble. Ireland wasn't as bad as seems to be believed(in the urban areas anyway, rural areas were another story).

You still think just take one example that's more relevant to this thread - you still think single mothers aren't looked down upon in society?

It's significantly more accepted today than in the past. I remember a time when women were burying newborns in fields. Then you had the laundries where "fallen" women were hidden away. You can't begin to compare then to now, not unless you say we've come a helluva long way.

At least that's one small thing Irish society has in it's favour - The pervasive attitude is one of "go with the flow, we'll ride it out, shìt happens, we're doing our best, wait till we get the grey voters out of the way and then things will change, etc".

I'd say the more pervasive attitude among too bloody many is "oh we're pretty backward and awful aren't we. Oh our poor egos, please massage us". A real Chicken Licken the sky's falling down vibe that's around. That hasn't changed nearly as much as it should have.

Have we some way to go? Yes, but equally we've come a long enough way in a remarkably short time.




* even there a most popular package was Lourdes for a week to purge your oul sins, followed by a week in the costa del yippee to create more to confess. The crawthumpers could opt for the reverse.

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

Divorce? Didn't exist until the 80's unless you were able to wangle a church annulment(I knew of two that did).

The 80s? I knew some people who were separated back then but we couldn't legislate for divorce until after the 1995 referendum, which passed by something like half a percent.

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

The 80s? I knew some people who were separated back then but we couldn't legislate for divorce until after the 1995 referendum, which passed by something like half a percent.

True, my mistake.

tritium

it's a measure of how much Ireland has evolved that we can have this discussion. All these things that we say are still an issue, well for the most part they wouldn't even have gotten an airing in a previous generation or so.

In reality things are very different (both for the better and worse in some respects). In another generation there will be another set if topical social issues that we pretend are the ongoing shame of Ireland but which we're only beginning to face up to now- maybe single fathers rights and male victims of domestic violence if I had my pick

Wibbs

tritium wrote: »

it's a measure of how much Ireland has evolved that we can have this discussion. All these things that we say are still an issue, well for the most part they wouldn't even have gotten an airing in a previous generation or so.

This. If Boards had been around in say the 50's it would have had a very different flavour.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

tritium wrote: »

it's a measure of how much Ireland has evolved that we can have this discussion. All these things that we say are still an issue, well for the most part they wouldn't even have gotten an airing in a previous generation or so.

In reality things are very different (both for the better and worse in some respects). In another generation there will be another set if topical social issues that we pretend are the ongoing shame of Ireland but which we're only beginning to face up to now- maybe single fathers rights and male victims of domestic violence if I had my pick

Kind of - for me, we just switched one form of brainwashed non-resistance to another. We had the church, we allowed them to influence us, we never questioned. Now we have the midia - we allo the to influence and we still never question.

I'll go for a more socially liberal society where we are more acceptign and less judgemental in the years to come. It's the natural progession once the tabloids lose their influence.

hansfrei

Yes. Theres a huge amount of liberal brainwashing in the media. Too fcuking much.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hansfrei wrote: »

Yes. Theres a huge amount of liberal brainwashing in the media. Too fcuking much.

Ha ha! Not biting - we know "liberal media" is an oxymoron!:D

periodictable

I wonder if Una is getting the CHristian equivalent of the 72 virgins?

Pherekydes

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Nah, the differences between people born in the 40s and 50s and people born in the 70, 80s and 90s are stark, huge.

Hey, wtf? Us 60s' children want to be pigeonholed, too, you know.

Pherekydes

periodictable wrote: »

I wonder if Una is getting the CHristian equivalent of the 72 virgins?

69?

Doc Ruby

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hey, wtf? Us 60s' children want to be pigeonholed, too, you know.

Nonsense, you all emigrated.

Czarcasm

tritium wrote: »

it's a measure of how much Ireland has evolved that we can have this discussion. All these things that we say are still an issue, well for the most part they wouldn't even have gotten an airing in a previous generation or so.

In reality things are very different (both for the better and worse in some respects). In another generation there will be another set if topical social issues that we pretend are the ongoing shame of Ireland but which we're only beginning to face up to now- maybe single fathers rights and male victims of domestic violence if I had my pick

Yes! This is exactly what I was trying to say, in a less harbinger of doomy type way!

Absolutely we've made a lot of progress on social issues in society (there's a lot of it is just done on paper too, no, there I go again!), but basically the issues have changed, but the attitude towards dealing with these issues hasn't. It's too easy to say "Oh that'll be the grey vote conservatives", when there are people half my age who are immeasurably more conservative than I am. The reason I can't measure it is because for me the evidence is merely anecdotal, but when I'm dropping off my son to school (he's eight) in the morning, and I see two white kids younger than my son egging on two black kids to fight each other for their own amusement, that's just one example, I DO tend to think the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

And before anyone suggests "Fcuk me you're one gloomy bastard", the thing is, as my wife often points out - "You're quiet when things are going well, but when somethings wrong with you, you kick off like a bull being castrated with a blunt scissors!". I mean, that's no different from anyone else - when things are going our way, we're grand, when things aren't going our way - we kick up! I just happen to think that yes, we've made some progress, but as Wibbs pointed out - we've a hell of a long way to go yet, and I put this down to attitudes in society needing to change rather than hoping legislation will change anything.

That's what I mean by a sinister undercurrent that we can't see and yet it's rampant. Because we just don't see it, or recognise it, or even some people refuse to acknowledge it still exists, and that's why I wonder when the influence of the church is diluted to be absolutely meaningless in a multi-cultural society, what excuse will people come up with then? And that's why I think of the UK as it is now as the best example of Ireland in 20 years time. Granted we won't have the same extremism, but the attitude will be there on an individual and anecdotal level.

Nobody's stupid enough to be so vocally homophobic, bigoted, racist, xenophobic, etc, but that doesn't mean these issues don't and won't exist, and no amount of legislation changes that. It's like the way legislation says employers can't discriminate, and yet, they still do, they're just more underhanded about it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Kind of - for me, we just switched one form of brainwashed non-resistance to another. We had the church, we allowed them to influence us, we never questioned. Now we have the midia - we allo the to influence and we still never question.

I'll go for a more socially liberal society where we are more acceptign and less judgemental in the years to come. It's the natural progession once the tabloids lose their influence.

Ahh, I see, we've moved on to blaming the media now, that would be the same media that has given us the broader outlook on the world, but now you're suggesting that they're trying to control how we view that world. I'm not saying I completely disagree with you, but I do think it's just another convenient explanation / excuse, rather than force ourselves to take a good hard look at ourselves and see that if we want society to change, we have to start with ourselves first and work our way outwards.

Dyr

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Still sore over getting your arse kicked in the lefties abandoning the unemployed thread?

eh? Last I saw of you horse, you were backpedalling out of the jobsbridge thread at speed

So is she dead or what? Grew up in the neighbourhood, know people who would have known UBMM, an odd fish by all accounts

Annasopra

Bambi wrote: »

So is she dead or what?

No

Femme_Fatale

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Still sore over getting your arse kicked in the lefties abandoning the unemployed thread?

I didn't see him getting his arse kicked whatsoever...

Pherekydes

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Nonsense, you all emigrated.

Ah, that's better.

Hotblack Desiato

Czarcasm wrote: »

The church hasn't been relevant in Irish society for the last 20 years

They still control 96% of publically funded primary schools, and some of them still think they should be able to control what treatments are offered in public-funded hospitals. They still have huge political influence, just look at how hard it was to get an extremely limited abortion law passed, and look at how they've got away with everything up to and including murder in relation to the slave laundries and institutionalised sex abuse with practically no consequences or compensation paid. Some individuals have been prosecuted, many more won't be and the RCC is still suppressing evidence and covering up and being allowed to do so by those in power.

Doc Ruby

Bambi wrote: »

eh? Last I saw of you horse, you were backpedalling out of the jobsbridge thread at speed

The fact that lefties, and the group which politically represents the vast majority of the left were not only silent while the unemployed were trampled, but were actually responsible for setting up institutionalised slavery at the behest of IBEC must gall, eh.

Now stop threadjacking this thread, because I for one was otherwise quite enjoying it and frankly I'm finding this a bit stalkerish.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I didn't see him getting his arse kicked whatsoever...

I do not care.

Czarcasm

ninja900 wrote: »

They still control 96% of publically funded primary schools, and some of them still think they should be able to control what treatments are offered in public-funded hospitals.

Have you ever asked yourself ninja how they're able to do this? Because they own most of the properties and lands on which these educational institutions and hospitals are built is why. They're not just going to give that up. The government would have to raise taxes to astronomical levels if they wanted to build schools and hospitals that had no association with the RC, and the same people who cry foul of the RC having patronage over schools and hospitals are the same people who are unwilling to fund the building of new schools and hospitals themselves (apart from a very small few people). Me personally I would like to see more privatisation of education and health, but again, people would have a problem with that too as they'd have to pay for it (corporate entities aren't known for their philanthropy), so you're kinda caught between a rock and a hard place there -

People will complain, but they're reluctant to do anything themselves that might contribute to solving the problem. It's not that we lack the resources, it's that we lack the will.

They still have huge political influence, just look at how hard it was to get an extremely limited abortion law passed, and look at how they've got away with everything up to and including murder in relation to the slave laundries and institutionalised sex abuse with practically no consequences or compensation paid. Some individuals have been prosecuted, many more won't be and the RCC is still suppressing evidence and covering up and being allowed to do so by those in power.

I see all that, and I also see how Enda cried a few crocodile tears and told the RC to piss off and the nation thought he was a great lad and finally we might see some change in this country, but when it came down to the wire, Enda like every other politician knew which side his bread was buttered and we ended up with some more cock-eyed, half-arsed legislation that cleared up nothing, same as the half-hearted "you must be separated for four out of five years before you can be divorced" nonsense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh, I see, we've moved on to blaming the media now, that would be the same media that has given us the broader outlook on the world, but now you're suggesting that they're trying to control how we view that world. I'm not saying I completely disagree with you, but I do think it's just another convenient explanation / excuse, rather than force ourselves to take a good hard look at ourselves and see that if we want society to change, we have to start with ourselves first and work our way outwards.

Not intending to blame at all - but when you look at the likes of tabloid jounalism, Fox news et al, there most certainly is an attitude of "trust us, we know best and don't ask questions". This is a porblem on both sides of the political specturm, but the right-wig tends to be more prominent in it's public actions than the left. Now, this may or may not be a good thing, but it most certainly is the same attitude that the church had.

The problem is the publics attitude to actually go along with it. Again, very similar to the Caholic Church era.