accountant overcharging, where to i stand?

monkey8

I got a quote from my accountant for €750 as a fixed charge to do some work.
I rang around a number of accountant to get the best quote and specifically asked if it was a fixed charge as I know alot of accountants add extra depending on how much work is involved.

I got an invoice in the post for €1200 and when I rang him he said it took him alot longer than he thought!

I got a letter threatening legal action if its not paid in full.
I haven't paid anything bewcause he did not amend the invoice.

Where do i stand on this? I am happy to pay the €750 but not €1,200.
I didn't sign any agreement, it was jsut an oral contract.

Tom Young

Oral agreement is enough. Pay the bill. I could set out the entire principles of contract law but I'm not going to.

Offer + Acceptance = Agreement; Agreement + Consideration = Legally Enforceable Contract.

The argument will be that you misrepresented the nature and quality/volume of the work required. Your argument will be that 750 was what was agreed. The chances are that even though the quote was fixed, the volume of the work can probably be proved.

ResearchWill

monkey8 wrote: »

I got a quote from my accountant for €750 as a fixed charge to do some work.
I rang around a number of accountant to get the best quote and specifically asked if it was a fixed charge as I know alot of accountants add extra depending on how much work is involved.

I got an invoice in the post for €1200 and when I rang him he said it took him alot longer than he thought!

I got a letter threatening legal action if its not paid in full.
I haven't paid anything bewcause he did not amend the invoice.

Where do i stand on this? I am happy to pay the €750 but not €1,200.
I didn't sign any agreement, it was jsut an oral contract.

Is the bill inclusive of VAT and outlays, most professionals quote ex VAT and ex outlays. So 750 plus VAT is €922.5, was there outlays P&P in solicitors offices often come in around €200 or so, im not sure do accounts charge the same way. SO without knowing the exact breakdown of the bill noone could answer you. If you are happy it was €750 inc VAT and all other charges, then write a letter setting that out.

Procrastastudy

I'd hire an accountant to look into it.

Joking aside - seems odd not to ask an accountant of all people for fees in writing.

Tom Young

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is the bill inclusive of VAT and outlays, most professionals quote ex VAT and ex outlays. So 750 plus VAT is €922.5, was there outlays P&P in solicitors offices often come in around €200 or so, im not sure do accounts charge the same way. SO without knowing the exact breakdown of the bill noone could answer you. If you are happy it was €750 inc VAT and all other charges, then write a letter setting that out.

My position is completely different obviously.

monkey8

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is the bill inclusive of VAT and outlays, most professionals quote ex VAT and ex outlays. So 750 plus VAT is €922.5, was there outlays P&P in solicitors offices often come in around €200 or so, im not sure do accounts charge the same way. SO without knowing the exact breakdown of the bill noone could answer you. If you are happy it was €750 inc VAT and all other charges, then write a letter setting that out.

I agreed €750 + Vat as a fixed fee. I asked him if this would be the final bill and he agreed.
He subsequently told me it took longer than he thought and charged more for the time involved.

I did not agree to this and I am certainly not paying the difference.

How do you see this playing out?
Does it go to the small claims court or what will be his next step if he pursues this?

Tom Young

I see it playing out as I stated it above. Be extremely careful. ResearchWill is right re. a breakdown.

ResearchWill

Tom Young wrote: »

My position is completely different obviously.

I don't see how your position is completely different. The amount of times I have had people tell me the professional over charged when in 90% of cases the supposed extra was VAT and outlays.

My own view if it is not the above and the accountant gave a fixed charge to do a fixed job he may very well be stuck to that unless he can show he was not told by the client all the correct info.

Tom Young

I take that back - slightly!

krd

ResearchWill wrote: »

I don't see how your position is completely different. The amount of times I have had people tell me the professional over charged when in 90% of cases the supposed extra was VAT and outlays.
.

Well, there can be a misunderstanding, or it can be deliberately underhanded. The end consumer, who will not be transferring the VAT or claiming it back is usually quoted a price including the VAT.

You should always get the original quote in writing.

ResearchWill

krd wrote: »

Well, there can be a misunderstanding, or it can be deliberately underhanded. The end consumer, who will not be transferring the VAT or claiming it back is usually quoted a price including the VAT.

You should always get the original quote in writing.

I do have to agree with you on that, it is unfair of professionals to quote ex VAT and not correctly explain the situation, to consumers. But I also believe as I have done it myself that it is usually an error.

Also agree best to get quote in writing which clearly states all costs and exactly what work is being done.

monkey8

Do cases like this generally go to the small claims court?

Milk & Honey

monkey8 wrote: »

Do cases like this generally go to the small claims court?

Never. The Small Claims court does not deal with debt collection.

nuac

1. Quotations are usually VAT exclusive

2. Did the accountant inspect your records prior to quoting? - (s)he should have

3. If records were inspected, what extra unexpected work arose.?

4. If you are in business, you will always need an accountant, so try to talk about this.

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is the bill inclusive of VAT and outlays, most professionals quote ex VAT and ex outlays. So 750 plus VAT is €922.5, was there outlays P&P in solicitors offices often come in around €200 or so, im not sure do accounts charge the same way. SO without knowing the exact breakdown of the bill noone could answer you. If you are happy it was €750 inc VAT and all other charges, then write a letter setting that out.

Law is one of the few areas to charge outlays. In construction, the client will be expected to pay planning application fees, development contributions, connection fees, etc. directly to the council, but that is typically because the design team has no control over those headings and their amounts may actually be larger than the design fees. Some clients will offer to pay for copying costs for tenders, but that thinking is out of date and is limited to certain categories of client.

Doctors will charge extra fees for specific services, but they don't charge people separately for tongue depressors or sample bottles, do they?

monkey8 wrote: »

I agreed €750 + Vat as a fixed fee. I asked him if this would be the final bill and he agreed.
He subsequently told me it took longer than he thought and charged more for the time involved.

I did not agree to this and I am certainly not paying the difference.

Well, what was agreed to? Why did it take substantially longer? While an accountant might charge X for say preparing annual accounts, I think that would be generally taken to assume that documentation is available and that everything is in order.

If the accountant has to going chasing your clients / suppliers for documentation or the documentation you have just doesn't stack up or there are Revenue issues, then that might be a whole other matter.

If it took longer because the accountant was taking his time, that is a whole other matter.

krd

Victor wrote: »

Law is one of the few areas to charge outlays. In construction, the client will be expected to pay planning application fees, development contributions, connection fees, etc.

It depends on the business.

Some businesses will give an itemised quote. They'll have fixed fess which they have control over. Then other costs, can be itemised and estimates given for those costs.

A ceiling can be agreed on the estimates - though it depends on the business.

But in the instance of outlays - a lawyer or accountant should be able to provide receipts for those outlays, and there should be no extra profit grafted on - the profit should just be in the original agreed fee.

In many services that charge fixed fees - it's standard practice.

Any profit on outlays, if a fixed fee has been agreed, is grafting. Especially if outlays are pulled out of a hat like a rabbit.

A professional is not going to turn around and say "Aw, the job took me a lot shorter than I thought it would.....here's a few pound back from your fixed fee". It doesn't happen.

Victor

krd wrote: »

A professional is not going to turn around and say "Aw, the job took me a lot shorter than I thought it would.....here's a few pound back from your fixed fee". It doesn't happen.

Yes, it's rare. But even builders sometimes give money back - although they tend not to be professionals.

jblack

Victor wrote: »

Yes, it's rare. But even builders sometimes give money back - although they tend not to be professionals.

That is more accurate than you intended- as per Robinson v PE Jones [2011] EWCA Civ 9 where it was held for the purposes of liability for pure economic loss builders are not professionals within the legal sense of the word and as such, without an assumption of responsibility above and beyond exercising due care and diligence, they will not be held liable for losses in tort for damage to the property which they have constructed.

monkey8

If i stick to my guns and refuse to pay more than €750 and he get his solicitor on the case what happens then?
Do i go to court? Does he get a debt collecting agency involved?

nino1

Why don't you just pay the €750. It won't be worth his time or expense to go after you for the remaining €450 whereas it propbably wou;d be worth it for the full amount.

grange mac

nino1 wrote: »

Why don't you just pay the €750. It won't be worth his time or expense to go after you for the remaining €450 whereas it propbably wou;d be worth it for the full amount.

Dont fotget to get your invoices etc back off him plus the work done before you part with money...if he acts the maggott pay him in installments of e1.00 per month...nothing he can do as payment terms prob werent agreed beforehand...set up a dd and laugh at him....that is only if he acts the maggot with you...

monkey8

nino1 wrote: »

Why don't you just pay the €750. It won't be worth his time or expense to go after you for the remaining €450 whereas it propbably wou;d be worth it for the full amount.

Yes, I was thinking of that.
But I'm still not sure what happens if he takes things further.
Does it go to court or debt passed to debt collecting agency?

grange mac

Once you are paying...nothing much he can do. Cant see him taking you to court for being a slow payer...i suggest you ring him and settle with him on the assumption if he dont settle you will start a standing order of e1.00 monthly and see how he likes that.if he gives your debt to an agencey they will get 25% so tell him best intrest to settle with you..best of luck.

krd

monkey8 wrote: »

Yes, I was thinking of that.
But I'm still not sure what happens if he takes things further.

For the love of god. He's an accountant. Slightly oily....I bet he had a comb over - yellow teeth........Square glasses, dandruff, and copious nose hair.

Send him the original fee agreed. With a letter stating it was pleasure doing business with him, and you look forward to doing business with him again, and in the future. And the payment is full and final.

Does it go to court or debt passed to debt collecting agency?

No....And if he passes it to a debt collection agency you can threaten to sue him.


Or you can hire the Viper to have a word with him. The Viper Credit Agency doesn't just collect errant payments, they can also deal with credit misunderstandings.