Men-emasculated by 50 shades ?

Feeona

Deleted User wrote: »

But if this book and the constant ****ing discussion of it everywhere liberated women from something then obviously there was a "problem" before.

You think that women are liberated from something by reading the book, I haven't even read the thing.

cantdecide

Deleted User wrote: »

It was a couple of weeks ago now and from fairly prolific ones but basically along the lines of really enjoying it and being ready for bed. Friends would comment asking what parts and they'd be all "Oh yeah that was great!". Thankfully not many people I know are like that but from the amount of comments it seems plenty are.

+1

I could have told you in advance which FB 'friends' of mine would be bleating on about it as if they were on some cutting edge cultural revolution.

Feeona

Feeona wrote: »

You think that women are liberated from something by reading the book, I haven't even read the thing.

Did you misread something 20 posts ago? :pac:

Feeona

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you misread something 20 posts ago? :pac:

No, did you?

hatrickpatrick

Diapason wrote: »

Criticising a novel for being badly-written = too scared to try BDSM.

I see.

There's a difference between criticizing the book's quality, and feeling "emasculated" by it

Feeona

Feeona wrote: »

No, did you?

So you were just going off on a tangent.

marshbaboon

I really want to criticise this book, but I don't know what emasculated means.

Also, I didn't read it.

cynder

cantdecide wrote: »

To those who have read it or are fans;

What would you think of it if had been written by a bloke?

Tbh I didn't know if the author was male or female when I read it, only afterwards did I find that it was a female.

cristoir

cynder wrote: »

Tbh I didn't know if the author was male or female when I read it, only afterwards did I find that it was a female.

If a man had written it I'd have said he's a sexist. Those in this thread going on about how the patriarchy are opposing this book should remember the relationship dynamic between the characters in the book. It is a textbook abusive relationship.

Sala

cristoir wrote: »

If a man had written it I'd have said he's a sexist. Those in this thread going on about how the patriarchy are opposing this book should remember the relationship dynamic between the characters in the book. It is a textbook abusive relationship.

Have you read it? (Edit:just tryng to sort through criticism of those that have and hadn't - many appear not to have!)

cristoir

Sala wrote: »

Have you read it? (Edit:just tryng to sort through criticism of those that have and hadn't - many appear not to have!)

For my sins yes. With everyone talking about it I felt I was missing out from the discussion and I wanted to see what all the hype was about. I have not however read the two sequels (and would have to be payed to do so :P).

cynder

cristoir wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Tbh I didn't know if the author was male or female when I read it, only afterwards did I find that it was a female.

If a man had written it I'd have said he's a sexist. Those in this thread going on about how the patriarchy are opposing this book should remember the relationship dynamic between the characters in the book. It is a textbook abusive relationship.

It's a fictional novel.

It's based (loosely) on submission on dominance.

What if it were Mrs Robinson as the dominant and grey as the submissive?

Sala

cristoir wrote: »

For my sins yes. With everyone talking about it I felt I was missing out from the discussion and I wanted to see what all the hype was about. I have not however read the two sequels (and would have to be payed to do so :P).

Interesting that (from reading boards only) a lot of the criticism is leveled at the appalling writing mainly. From what you are saying I find it hard to believe it's so popular with women, it doesn't seem like a woman-friendly fantasy, or at least one that would appeal to the masses.

Feeona

Deleted User wrote: »

So you were just going off on a tangent.

No, I just have a different opinion to yours.

cristoir

cynder wrote: »

It's a fictional novel.

It's based (loosely) on submission on dominance.

What if it were Mrs Robinson as the dominant and grey as the submissive?

In a BSDM relationship the dominance should stop outside the bedroom. Christian is nasty, condescending, and incredibly controlling. Add to the fact that Ana is shown to be a pathetically weak character who just oozes naivety you have an abusive relationship that isn't just rough sex. The BSDM acts as a cover to give the allusion that the dominance is ok because it's sexual when in fact he is controlling and manipulating her far beyond the poorly written sexual adventures.

As Katrina Lumsden said the basis of this book is that given enough time you can change someone. She sums it neatly here:

How many idiotic, weak women are going to waste their lives on some emotionally retarded prick because they've read **** like this and think this kind of ****ed-up fairytale will come true for them? I've known women with this mentality. "Oh, he's so dark and dangerous and threatening, but he's got a sad, lonely side, and if I could just figure out what's wrong, I could change him!"

cristoir

Sala wrote: »

Interesting that (from reading boards only) a lot of the criticism is leveled at the appalling writing mainly. From what you are saying I find it hard to believe it's so popular with women, it doesn't seem like a woman-friendly fantasy, or at least one that would appeal to the masses.

Perhaps there is some truth to the cliché "women love a bastard".

Fizzlesque

My sixteen year old niece and her friend stayed with me for the weekend recently, and my niece was reading this book. She hasn't always been one for reading books - in fact, last year, while she was visiting I noticed her reading a Jackie Collins book and mentioned to my brother (her dad) that I'd never seen her reading before. He told me she had only recently got into reading books since someone gave her this Jackie Collins novel.

Her friend also never reads but while we were out shopping my niece bought the second of these books and her friend bought the first. A few times throughout the day the friend commented on a boy she thought was attractive that we'd passed in the street and each time my niece would reply, somewhat dreamily "not interested, I've got my Mr Grey and that's all I need"

I asked my niece if she was aware there was a lot of criticism levelled against this book because the writing was so bad, and she looked at me blankly and replied "is it bad writing? I wouldn't have a clue what's good writing and what's bad".

Later that evening, the two of them were busy reading away while I cooked dinner, and after a while my niece's friend couldn't concentrate on reading any longer and made some comment to that effect. My niece said to her "yeah it's really boring for the first age but you have to keep going, it gets better". Later that week, after the girls had gone home, my niece's friend sent me an email to thank me for the visit and to let me know she'd finished the book "in less than a week". Now she wants to read more books, not necessarily the follow on of this trilogy, but any books. I had given her a book I had in the house, and she was about to start that soon.

I'm so pleased they're reading I've told them I'll send them a parcel every so often with some books to read (I'll look in second hand shops and pick up loads of books for them quite cheaply - they live in a very rural part of Wales, so there isn't the same scope for finding cheap book/book stores there as there is for me here) and they're really happy about this. I was tempted to have a read of the book if my niece had finished it in time to be able to leave it in my house when the time came for them to go home, just to see for myself what it was like, but she still had a good bit left to finish by time they were heading off.

I'm not sure how I'd have reacted to such a book when I was sixteen, but the fact it's got my niece (and her friend) interested in reading books and allows me to become her book-sending aunt makes me kind of happy it exists. Time will tell if their tastes change and if they'll one day be able to tell the difference between good writing and bad writing. I remain hopeful this is the start of a beautiful new relationship for them in the wonderful world of reading. Something I'm a bit astounded they haven't discovered for themselves already, but hey, it's never too late to start.

cynder

Tbh it should have an 18 rating... I wouldn't let my daughter read it at 16, if it had one or 2 sex scenes but there are too sex scenes for a 16 year old.

I dont think a child of 16 should be reading about butt plugs, anal beeds, getting the clitoris whipped with a riding crop, getting flogged, giving underwater blow jobs, and do on.

Feisar

I've just read the first couple of pages. It's childish stuff in fairness. A prude meets this man and is trembling at the knees at his every word/gesture. It's so dramatic and over spun.

cynder

cristoir wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

It's a fictional novel.

It's based (loosely) on submission on dominance.

What if it were Mrs Robinson as the dominant and grey as the submissive?

In a BSDM relationship the dominance should stop outside the bedroom. Christian is nasty, condescending, and incredibly controlling. Add to the fact that Ana is shown to be a pathetically weak character who just oozes naivety you have an abusive relationship that isn't just rough sex. The BSDM acts as a cover to give the allusion that the dominance is ok because it's sexual when in fact he is controlling and manipulating her far beyond the poorly written sexual adventures.

As Katrina Lumsden said the basis of this book is that given enough time you can change someone. She sums it neatly here:

How many idiotic, weak women are going to waste their lives on some emotionally retarded prick because they've read **** like this and think this kind of ****ed-up fairytale will come true for them? I've known women with this mentality. "Oh, he's so dark and dangerous and threatening, but he's got a sad, lonely side, and if I could just figure out what's wrong, I could change him!"

After reading 3 books I don't find greys character nasty, and his controlling behavior eases.

As I said before it's a story a fictional novel.


But you really need to read the 3 books, not just the first to see the whole picture.


It's like looking at a jigsaw and only seeing a third of it, your missing 2/3s.

Fizzlesque

cynder wrote: »

Tbh it should have an 18 rating... I wouldn't let my daughter read it at 16, if it had one or 2 sex scenes but there are too sex scenes for a 16 year old.

I dont think a child of 16 should be reading about butt plugs, anal beeds, getting the clitoris whipped with a riding crop, getting flogged, giving underwater blow jobs, and do on.

Yeah, I have to say I was a bit shocked to see my niece reading it, but because I haven't read it myself, I was in no position to be making any comment. I didn't realise there was all the stuff you've mentioned in it, and even if I did, she was already almost finished it and I'm not in a position to censor what she reads.

She seemed to be completely unphased by it all - in fact, she absolutely loved it. She'll be 17 soon, and her friend will be 18 soon, but still, I know when I was that age such a book would have freaked me out. I definitely wouldn't have been reading it in front of my grandfather, as she did when she was at my dad's house. Times sure have changed, as, I suppose, they do.

Feisar

cristoir wrote: »

In a BSDM relationship the dominance should stop outside the bedroom. Christian is nasty, condescending, and incredibly controlling. Add to the fact that Ana is shown to be a pathetically weak character who just oozes naivety you have an abusive relationship that isn't just rough sex. The BSDM acts as a cover to give the allusion that the dominance is ok because it's sexual when in fact he is controlling and manipulating her far beyond the poorly written sexual adventures.

As Katrina Lumsden said the basis of this book is that given enough time you can change someone. She sums it neatly here:

Not the case. It may be more than tying up and a bit of spanking. For some people it's a lifestyle choice.

cristoir

cristoir wrote: »

In a BSDM relationship the dominance should stop outside the bedroom.

For some people D/s is full time
He's still a nasty abusive git based on what i've read though and it's still not proper ds

pragmatic1

I wouldn't say most men give a rats arse either way tbh.

Tonto86

I'm writing ny own book...

50 shades of two girls, a cup and a human centipede

Sala

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215

Laughed out loud at Katrina Lumsden review of it.

Snowie

pimbeche wrote: »

Has anyone noticed that bar a handful of women , the bad reviews / outpouring of disaprovals for this book are mainly coming from men ?

Even looking at threads that have been started on boards , the majority of the slating is being done by men....

Just like porn has always been considered a guys thing , it seems that this book is turning into a womens thing.

While I dont love the book , I dont hate it either and Im beginning to think that maybe there is some jealousy coming from the guys that women have something of their own.

Am I the only one who has noticed this or what ?

Conversations with women seem to be a lot more dirty these days for me... Propper full on suggestiveness past few weeks... Seems like its said to Irish people it's ok to be a sick demented pervert :cool:


I'm not complaining... Tho I get away with murder I'm charming like that

The Corinthian

Sala wrote: »

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215

Laughed out loud at Katrina Lumsden review of it.

I enjoyed that review, I must say, however I do think she made one mistake when reviewing it which is that she treated the book as a 'book'.

It's not; it's just porn.

No one tries to review Debbie does Dallas in the same way as they'd review Shindler's List, after all. No one is expecting great - frankly any - dialogue, characters or plot line. Porn is photographed, filmed or written simply as a 'bare bones' wrapper around something that's supposed to help you get off.

And that's all this 'book' is - porn. I mean, seriously; You'd have to really work hard to come up with better pornstar names than Anastasia Steele and Christian Grey.

The whole BDSM theme isn't all that surprising in porn directed at women. If I had a penny for every woman who confessed to me that Secretary was one of their favourite or most influential films, I'd have enough money for a newspaper (albeit a tabloid). It just seems to be a pretty common 'button' for many women and I'd be lying if I didn't admit that Anastasia Steele reminds me a little of a few ex's in my past.

As to the effect such a book will have, encouraging women to have abusive relationships, I don't know about that. Certainly some will be dumb enough to do so, just as some guys will watch a porn-flick and then be convinced that all women are into ass-to-mouth. But such idiots have been around long before Mr Grey or Silvia Saint appeared to 'influence' them and I doubt if such movies or literature are now creating any new idiots that nature has already provided us with. For everyone else, it's just a fantasy; a tool designed to help us in the process of 'self-love'.

Finally, are men jealous of Mr Grey? It's unlikely many men even know who he is. And even when we do, the whole thing is so preposterous (as porn it's not going to do much for us and take that away and what's left is always preposterous) that I doubt any of us would care.

Grayson

The Corinthian wrote: »

The whole BDSM theme isn't all that surprising in porn directed at women. If I had a penny for every woman who confessed to me that Secretary was one of their favourite or most influential films, I'd have enough money for a newspaper (albeit a tabloid). It just seems to be a pretty common 'button' for many women and I'd be lying if I didn't admit that Anastasia Steele reminds me a little of a few ex's in my past.

As to the effect such a book will have, encouraging women to have abusive relationships, I don't know about that. Certainly some will be dumb enough to do so, just as some guys will watch a porn-flick and then be convinced that all women are into ass-to-mouth. But such idiots have been around long before Mr Grey or Silvia Saint appeared to 'influence' them and I doubt if such movies or literature are now creating any new idiots that nature has already provided us with. For everyone else, it's just a fantasy; a tool designed to help us in the process of 'self-love'.

But secretary is well made and it has a different premise.

Although it starts with her being shy and submissive, the power changes sides during the film. By the end although she's still the submissive, she's the submissive because she allows it. And he knows it. She's the one in charge.

I can see the kind of girl who thinks she can change a man buying into it. Obviously a woman who's already a strong and independent thinker wouldn't. But based on the number of women who are in abusive relationships, where they think the abuser is a guy who cares for them, there is unfortunately a lot of people who would buy into it.

Then again what are we to do? Keep books out of the hands of stupid and gullible people? Ban some fiction because a dumbass might take it seriously?

In my office, pretty much every girl has read this book. There are copies everywhere. And women talk freely about it. A lot think it's badly written. But for some, it's the first book they've read since they left school. I can only hope that they've learned to enjoy reading and they'll buy more books and hopefully some of those books will have more literary merit.

Grayson

Sala wrote: »

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215

Laughed out loud at Katrina Lumsden review of it.

That was posted in another thread. the gifs make it one of the most enjoyable reviews I've ever read.

The Corinthian

Grayson wrote: »

But secretary is well made and it has a different premise.

I wasn't comparing the two, I was just commenting upon the not uncommon theme of BDSM in that crops up in some women's sexual fantasies.

But for some, it's the first book they've read since they left school.

That's the most depressing thing I've heard today.

cantdecide

Grayson wrote: »

In my office, pretty much every girl has read this book. There are copies everywhere. And women talk freely about it.

This is like the earlier references to SATC. It's all part of the fun. I loved the review calling it "mommy porn". I hadn't heard that before. Very appropriate. Same as when men and their mates all get together with wine and chocolate and watch porn vids and exchange mags!

Co-incidentally, the plots in our porn are rubbish too.

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's the most depressing thing I've heard today.

Surprising?

LittleBook

Grayson wrote: »

But for some, it's the first book they've read since they left school.

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's the most depressing thing I've heard today.

cantdecide wrote: »

Surprising?

Nope. One of the secrets of the success of this book is it's appeal to people who don't read for pleasure.

Grayson

cantdecide wrote: »

Co-incidentally, the plots in our porn are rubbish too.
?

But some has really high production values

http://everything2.com/title/Uranus+Project

(I couldn't find a link describing it was was safe for work:))

BobMc

Grayson wrote: »

But some has really high production values

http://everything2.com/title/Uranus+Project

(I couldn't find a link describing it was was safe for work:))

I have the DVD collection of this movie its a great flick, very high production values indeed

I've also read 50 shades, it was alright the missus has read all three

The Corinthian

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's the most depressing thing I've heard today.

How many copies has it sold, over 20 million or something? Have a look at how many other books have done so, way more depressing.

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote: »

How many copies has it sold, over 20 million or something? Have a look at how many other books have done so, way more depressing.

The Bible?

1ZRed

Downloaded the sample first 3 chapters on my iPad and **** me, I couldn't even get passed the first page.

So I just skimmed over the the chapters trying to spot all the sex related words and start there. Nothing.

Ffs! that's no way to sell an already boring and whiny as feck book to me!

The Corinthian

The Corinthian wrote: »

The Bible?

There's a few that have sold more but loads that I would've thought had. Things like Orwell that's been on school curriculums for years hasn't even sold as much.

Queen-Mise

Why are men so obsessed with these books? It is story with porn. That's it.

You don't see women obsessing about porn & what men watch - why are all of you so obsessed with these books. Would you get a life?

Now for my theory: I think men are feeling insecure sexually as a result of these books. I think that is why they spend so much time thrashing it.

Damnit, I've been caught out.

Daveysil15

pimbeche wrote: »

While I dont love the book , I dont hate it either and Im beginning to think that maybe there is some jealousy coming from the guys that women have something of their own.

To be honest I'm more jealous of the fecking author. She's after making a mint from such a simple idea.

ibarelycare

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Why are men so obsessed with these books? It is story with porn. That's it.

You don't see women obsessing about porn & what men watch - why are all of you so obsessed with these books. Would you get a life?

Now for my theory: I think men are feeling insecure sexually as a result of these books. I think that is why they spend so much time thrashing it.

Why do women spend so much time thrashing it then?

Grayson

Daveysil15 wrote: »

To be honest I'm more jealous of the fecking author. She's after making a mint from such a simple idea.

Turn out the best way to flog a book is to write a book about flogging.

ibarelycare wrote: »

Why do women spend so much time thrashing it then?

They obviously hate themselves and are trying to stop women from being free.

omgitsthelazor

I've got to the stage in my readthrough where I'm afraid to continue because I think if I go any further its going to step into the realm of ridiculousness and retroactively destroy the positivity I have towards the book now.

The first 7 chapters set anticipation well, very juvenile and naive but then...the character is juvenile and naive so its fine. The first sex scene I enjoyed a lot, lets just say. :pac:
But I'm not really into the S&M and controlling stuff where this seems to be headed. It might have been interesting to watch the development if that was an end point but the whole signing a contract business makes it seem like rest of the plot will be adjusting to this new domain rather than it happening organically.

Either way if like me you're into the general field of erotica you'll know the writing mostly isn't that high, prior to this the majority of these writings have been either low budget or no budget on fanfiction.net so I'm not sure why anyone would expect a literary masterpiece from this genre. If the author could write a literary masterpiece she'd be using her talent on something a lot more publishable to make easy money. I'm pleased by the fact that this has been a success and maybe it will encourage a higher standard of author to write these kind of books in the future as they'll be more readily publishable.

The Corinthian

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Now for my theory: I think men are feeling insecure sexually as a result of these books. I think that is why they spend so much time thrashing it.

I don't know if that's true. Maybe it is for some, in the same way that some women feel sexually insecure about how porn actresses look (especially if their boyfriends are watching them), but honestly I think most men view the book with a mixture of indifference and bemusement.

omgitsthelazor

omgitsthelazor wrote: »

Either way if like me you're into the general field of erotica you'll know the writing mostly isn't that high, prior to this the majority of these writings have been either low budget or no budget on fanfiction.net so I'm not sure why anyone would expect a literary masterpiece from this genre.

Em, the other books and pieces I've read have been a hell of a lot better written.
Maybe you're looking in the wrong places

Madam_X

I see plenty of women slating it. I know some girls who read it for the sexy bits, the bit of fantasy/escapism, nothing more. But there are lots of women who think it's a beautiful love story and the guy (who seems like a thundering cuntt and a mentalist) "isn't that bad, he's really sweet and vulnerable underneath it all". Anyone, male or female, would be irritated by that bintish nonsense.
I don't think men feel threatened by it, more irked by the hype over something so lame.

4zn76tysfajdxp

LittleBook wrote: »

Nope. One of the secrets of the success of this book is it's appeal to people who don't read for pleasure.

Well if I ever don't want a pleasurable read I know what to get.