Farmers Avoiding Tax?

20silkcut

Tipp Man wrote: »

20silkcut wrote: »

Some times farmers can be there own worse enemy for instance it can be very un-edifying to see reams of big modern 10,11,12 reg tractors ( each costing the price of a semi detached house) in tractor runs up through the centre of towns cities in this country. I think these events should be kept for vintage tractors, which are more interesting and historic anyway.

You make it sound like its a sin to have a relatively new tractor

Guess what it's not

new tractors are boring they are all manufactured by 2 or 3 big mega companies and look the same they just slap different stickers on them.

I don't find it remotely interesting looking at them whizzing past in tractor runs that's just a personal opinion and I know a few more like me.
Not a sin to own one and of course they are absolutely essential but you don't see Modern Toyota avensis or ford mondeos etc in car runs.

bb12

rancher wrote: »

Any issues I was involved with that acheived a result, usually meant causing havoc with the public.
DBD,, I always thought that the milk protests went well here, more chaos with the public of course but great crack.

You've an awful lot to learn if you think you can cause havoc with the public and think you'll still win the war! this is exactly the kind of irish farmer's attitude that needs to change!

people need to be made aware of how much they depend on farmers in this country. at the moment joe public look at farmers as a complete waste of time, an inconvenience that clogs up our roads making them late for their office jobs, dirtying theirs cars from the muddy roads and spreading manure causing havoc for their weekend bbq party plans!!

there needs to be a complete 180 swing shift were people are made to see how they couldn't basically live without what a farmers does! i'd love to see a proper reality show following different farm families from across all sectors: tillage, sheep, beef etc say over a year and show all the trials and trumphs involved...this might waken people up...in this day and age when resources are becoming so so precious, people should be celebrating farmers for the work they're doing, not castigating them at every turn.

i really believe it's always been in the governments interest to stoke this fire between the farmers and non-farmers...if the public actually got behind the farmers and appreciated them as they actually should, then that would be a real danger to the government.

bob charles

I really liked the idea recent where a large % of farmers in a region in Holland spent a day going around from door to door explaining about their product and where milk comes from etc. sounds like brilliant PR

rancher

bb12 wrote: »

You've an awful lot to learn if you think you can cause havoc with the public and think you'll still win the war! this is exactly the kind of irish farmer's attitude that needs to change!

people need to be made aware of how much they depend on farmers in this country. at the moment joe public look at farmers as a complete waste of time, an inconvenience that clogs up our roads making them late for their office jobs, dirtying theirs cars from the muddy roads and spreading manure causing havoc for their weekend bbq party plans!!

there needs to be a complete 180 swing shift were people are made to see how they couldn't basically live without what a farmers does! i'd love to see a proper reality show following different farm families from across all sectors: tillage, sheep, beef etc say over a year and show all the trials and trumphs involved...this might waken people up...in this day and age when resources are becoming so so precious, people should be celebrating farmers for the work they're doing, not castigating them at every turn.

i really believe it's always been in the governments interest to stoke this fire between the farmers and non-farmers...if the public actually got behind the farmers and appreciated them as they actually should, then that would be a real danger to the government.

And then your mother wakes you for breakfast......dream on

Tora Bora

rancher wrote: »

bb12 wrote: »

You've an awful lot to learn if you think you can cause havoc with the public and think you'll still win the war! this is exactly the kind of irish farmer's attitude that needs to change!

people need to be made aware of how much they depend on farmers in this country. at the moment joe public look at farmers as a complete waste of time, an inconvenience that clogs up our roads making them late for their office jobs, dirtying theirs cars from the muddy roads and spreading manure causing havoc for their weekend bbq party plans!!

there needs to be a complete 180 swing shift were people are made to see how they couldn't basically live without what a farmers does! i'd love to see a proper reality show following different farm families from across all sectors: tillage, sheep, beef etc say over a year and show all the trials and trumphs involved...this might waken people up...in this day and age when resources are becoming so so precious, people should be celebrating farmers for the work they're doing, not castigating them at every turn.

i really believe it's always been in the governments interest to stoke this fire between the farmers and non-farmers...if the public actually got behind the farmers and appreciated them as they actually should, then that would be a real danger to the government.

And then your mother wakes you for breakfast......dream on

Farming is that bad, you can't afford an alarm clock!!

KCTK

rancher wrote: »

Don't know if I'd like to be a member of any organisation that would be worried about PR.

Our last Taoiseach had the same thought on the need for PR, how did that work out for him again???

huey1975

reilig wrote: »

Don't forget that as farmers, the majority of us are not registered for VAT unlike the majority of other businesses in the country. We are paying VAT on every product, feed stuff, services, machines, inputs etc. In this way, we contribut a lot more to state coffers than small companies who have Vat numbers and do not pay vat at all.

What vat rate are you paying on feedstuff ?

huey1975

huey1975 wrote: »

What vat rate are you paying on feedstuff ?

And the vat on fertiliser? And new buildings?

bob charles

huey1975 wrote: »

What vat rate are you paying on feedstuff ?

0% on most feedstuffs, not sure about minerals etc, fertilizer zero, buildings either standard (23%) if you buy inputs yourself or reduced (13.5%) if paying a building contractor

huey1975

bob charles wrote: »

huey1975 wrote: »

What vat rate are you paying on feedstuff ?

0% on most feedstuffs, not sure about minerals etc, fertilizer zero, buildings either standard (23%) if you buy inputs yourself or reduced (13.5%) if paying a building contractor

And that vat on new building can be reclaimed by non vat registered farmers so really farmers pay SFA vat

bob charles

huey1975 wrote: »

And that vat on new building can be reclaimed by non vat registered farmers so really farmers pay SFA vat

yes vat can be reclaimed on fixtures, but what about the other inputs (top of head calculations), I pay 25k VAT on energy,vet medicines,contractors,chemicals,machinery leases and there are a fair few more to add to that list.

I can assure you if the revenue taught for a second that it would be beneficial to have all farmers VAT registered they would.

huey1975

bob charles wrote: »

huey1975 wrote: »

And that vat on new building can be reclaimed by non vat registered farmers so really farmers pay SFA vat

yes vat can be reclaimed on fixtures, but what about the other inputs (top of head calculations), I pay 25k VAT on energy,vet medicines,contractors,chemicals,machinery leases and there are a fair few more to add to that list.

I can assure you if the revenue taught for a second that it would be beneficial to have all farmers VAT registered they would.

Yeah you are a great man bob. Don't forget to tell us about all the vat you get paid when you sell cattle

bob charles

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah you are a great man bob. Don't forget to tell us about all the vat you get paid when you sell cattle

and do you not pay VAT buying cattle???

jntsnk

Farmers pay tax, a lot of people are involved in the black economy and others falsely claiming benefit.

kevthegaff

jntsnk wrote: »

Farmers pay tax, a lot of people are involved in the black economy and others falsely claiming benefit.

i knew this thread would get lots of posts!, the bottom line is farmers pay a huge chunk of taxes directly or indirectly etc VAT, Stamp duty. A small minority are making big money, but the rest of us are getting by:)

jntsnk

Everyone knows someone cheating the welfare system, farmers are not avoiding tax, any decent profits that are made are deliberately encouraged by the gov to be put back into the business, through writing off against your tax bill etc... This will always create jobs and more revenue.Also if farmers didn't have tax write offs a farm would decline rapidly by lack of investment, lead to less income tax, less tax revenue, need gov support then.

Markcheese

Bit difficult to avoid much tax when your income is from the mart , the factory or the milk cheque, and if you do buy something for "cash " it's usually something that could have reduced yr tax bill if it went through the books....

huey1975

bob charles wrote: »

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah you are a great man bob. Don't forget to tell us about all the vat you get paid when you sell cattle

and do you not pay VAT buying cattle???

Yeah vat is paid when they are bought but my point is there is nothing stopping you from registering for vat and then you could reclaim 25k.

Farmer Pudsey

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah vat is paid when they are bought but my point is there is nothing stopping you from registering for vat and then you could reclaim 25k.

If you vat register for most farmers the vat saved is lost by accountants fees. Your accountants costs will at least double and you also have the hassle of making sure yu always ge a reciept. If you sell 100 cattle to the factory @1400each the vat rebate will be around 70/head and a total of 7000 euro's. Now if you vat register you can claim vat on any machinery or vans etc you buy if you spennd 12.5k on average on machinery you are claiming 2300 approx you will be able to claim another 1.5k off fuel vat, contractors charges around 700 euro's , vat on wrap, vets fees, accountant fees and other professionals, small purchasses, ESB, telephone, farmers journal need I go on what the government is doing is revenue neutral.

It is not just farmers that do not want us registered for tax the co-op and factories would have to increase there prices and it would be more transparent. Also remember it is only the farmer that slaughter's cattle that gets the vat rebate the rest of the drystock farmers get nothing

bob charles

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah vat is paid when they are bought but my point is there is nothing stopping you from registering for vat and then you could reclaim 25k.

no point continuing as you don't seem to have a basic grasp of the Tax system.

This book may help
http://www.taxworld.ie/shop/taxbook

huey1975

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah vat is paid when they are bought but my point is there is nothing stopping you from registering for vat and then you could reclaim 25k.

If you vat register for most farmers the vat saved is lost by accountants fees. Your accountants costs will at least double and you also have the hassle of making sure yu always ge a reciept. If you sell 100 cattle to the factory @1400each the vat rebate will be around 70/head and a total of 7000 euro's. Now if you vat register you can claim vat on any machinery or vans etc you buy if you spennd 12.5k on average on machinery you are claiming 2300 approx you will be able to claim another 1.5k off fuel vat, contractors charges around 700 euro's , vat on wrap, vets fees, accountant fees and other professionals, small purchasses, ESB, telephone, farmers journal need I go on what the government is doing is revenue neutral.

It is not just farmers that do not want us registered for tax the co-op and factories would have to increase there prices and it would be more transparent. Also remember it is only the farmer that slaughter's cattle that gets the vat rebate the rest of the drystock farmers get nothing

That is my point. Vat is revenue neutral for farmers but bob is bitching about the 25k vat that he pays on fuel, energy, medicine etc but doesn't mention the vat that he gets when he kills cattle.
Also it is not that difficult to do your own vat returns, you just add up vat expenditure deduct vat income and either make a payment or apply for a rebate. I manage to do my own returns even though bob reckons I don't have a basic grasp of the system

Tipp Man

huey1975 wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

huey1975 wrote: »

Yeah vat is paid when they are bought but my point is there is nothing stopping you from registering for vat and then you could reclaim 25k.

If you vat register for most farmers the vat saved is lost by accountants fees. Your accountants costs will at least double and you also have the hassle of making sure yu always ge a reciept. If you sell 100 cattle to the factory @1400each the vat rebate will be around 70/head and a total of 7000 euro's. Now if you vat register you can claim vat on any machinery or vans etc you buy if you spennd 12.5k on average on machinery you are claiming 2300 approx you will be able to claim another 1.5k off fuel vat, contractors charges around 700 euro's , vat on wrap, vets fees, accountant fees and other professionals, small purchasses, ESB, telephone, farmers journal need I go on what the government is doing is revenue neutral.

It is not just farmers that do not want us registered for tax the co-op and factories would have to increase there prices and it would be more transparent. Also remember it is only the farmer that slaughter's cattle that gets the vat rebate the rest of the drystock farmers get nothing

That is my point. Vat is revenue neutral for farmers but bob is bitching about the 25k vat that he pays on fuel, energy, medicine etc but doesn't mention the vat that he gets when he kills cattle.
Also it is not that difficult to do your own vat returns, you just add up vat expenditure deduct vat income and either make a payment or apply for a rebate. I manage to do my own returns even though bob reckons I don't have a basic grasp of the system

Mick Wallace managed to do his own vat returns also

Simple fact of the matter is that farmers are subject to income tax at the same rates as every other self employed person in the country

It seems some are of the view that I'd just be filling out farmer on my tax return and that'd exempt me from it - If only

bob charles

huey1975 wrote: »

I manage to do my own returns even though bob reckons I don't have a basic grasp of the system

Considering yesterday you didn't know

huey1975 wrote: »

What vat rate are you paying on feedstuff ?

huey1975 wrote: »

And the vat on fertiliser? And new buildings?

You also didn't seem to know that you pay VAT on purchase of cattle

huey1975 wrote: »

Don't forget to tell us about all the vat you get paid when you sell cattle

Your VAT returns must be interesting considering you didn't even know the above 24hrs ago

Nermal

bbam wrote: »

It's down to the old Asset rich problem, to the uneducated it seems farmers are worth a fortune, therefore they must be making a fortune.
At the end of the day means assessment must be on the family income from the farming enterprise, anything else is senseless.

Why is it senseless? It makes sense that means-testing would include assets as well as incomes. If you have a lot of assets and aren't making income from them, that's your problem, not the State's.

Exemptions like this in means-testing and inheritance tax for farmers are the reason land is artificially overvalued in Ireland way beyond it's productive capacity, and the reason our agricultural industry is so inefficient that it cannot survive without subsidy.

Farmer Pudsey

Nermal wrote: »

and the reason our agricultural industry is so inefficient that it cannot survive without subsidy.

Most developed country subsdise there agriculture production with the exception of countries that are net exporters. The US for all it talk about free trade subsdise food production too a hugh extent. In the US farmers are allowed to use growth promoters on meat producing animals and GM technology on plants. There farms are massive and still lose money.

A lot of people forget that in the developed world we have not had a famine or food shortages since WWII. In real terms food prices have declined in the last 30 years and the farmers share has shrunk even more yet the selection of food and food products have increased ten fold.

If food companies did not have access to cheap continous supply of raw food materials they would have to increase food prices to cover costs. Over the next 10 years food will increase in cost as Asian countries increase therefood demand and oil increases in price.

We see at the moment that Australia and New Zealand are targeting this market as will Argentina as it increases food production. There hugh surplases will be swallowed up by this region. North Africa is again looking at the EU to supply it with meat. It may take 3-5 years for this market to develop.

In return for not using hormones, GM technology, protecting the envoirment and animal husbandry that is different to that use in other countries the EU subsdise farmers to allow them to farm. If subsidy's went farm production would drop by up to 50% accross the EU and there is no other food surplas to replace it.