That little hole in the tip of a target bullet...

tac foley

is not there to make it expand when it hits the piece of paper that is the target of a target bullet. It is there to improve the aerodynamic and ballistic performance of the bullet at long range by moving the bullet's centre of gravity to the rear - see -

Development
The development of very-low-drag bullets has focused on the following main factors:

• the production of bullets with concentric and coincident centres of form and centres of mass
• bullet nose design incorporating a secant ogive, tangent ogive, Von Kármán ogive or Sears-Haack profile
• the use of carefully tapered bullet heels, or boat-tails
• a cavity or hollow in the bullet nose (hollow point) to shift the projectile's centre of gravity rearwards
• To reduce damage to the employed barrel and increase muzzle velocity, many modern mono-metal very-low-drag bullets are bore-riding bullets, in which thin driving bands are the only parts that are etched by the barrel's lands. The use of driving bands originates from artillery shells and to use these driving bands correctly requires projectiles and barrels to be precision-fitted to each other.

A traditional Hollow Point Boat Tail very-low-drag rifle bullet. The jackets of these bullets are generally made out of copper alloy (such as gilding metal or cupronickel)


The resulting projectile should be very "slippery" (well streamlined) for easier passage through the air. Consistency in bullet production, allied to consistency in the assembly of cartridges (quality control) should give excellent shot-to-shot consistency.
The principles of bullet design and flight are classically set out in F.W. Mann's The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target: Ballistics of Small Arms.

Note, however, that a VLD bullet WILL expand after travelling 3-4 inches into a target, something that paper-punchers do not have to concern themselves with. Berger, in particular, note this on the website, and further describe the effectiveness of their VLD design on game -

The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13” to 15” long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective, inside the animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.

In the final summation, as ever, you do whatever you want to do, in the Republic of Ireland, and shoot whatever you want to shoot with whatever you feel like using on the day.

However, note that coming over to the UK, including the North of Ireland, to shoot deer, you will be expected to shoot what the UK authorities and game conservancy organisations - BASC and the Britsh Deer Society - call a hunting bullet, and that is categorically not any form of VLD FMJ design.

tac

tomcat220t

Hi Tac ,nice read :cool:
It still dont add up in my mind how a hollow point would aid in bullet accuracy !
What i understood was the hollow point was a side effect (so to speak) in the bullet manufacturing process getting the lead into the j4 jacket .
I taught the hollow point in flight does not adversely affect accuracy but if closed can improve B/C by 6-8% .
I did not thing the hollow point was there deliberatly to aid accuracy ??

tac foley

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Tac ,nice read :cool:
It still dont add up in my mind how a hollow point would aid in bullet accuracy ! I did not thing the hollow point was there deliberatly to aid accuracy ??

Sir - Messrs Sierra, Lapua, Hornady, Speer, Lapua, Berger, JLK and others who make bullets with tiny holes in the point would not agree with you.

Closing the jacket can often produce a somewhat faceted point, called a meplat. Sinclair make a little gauging/cutting/trimming device that effectively trims the meplat away by a repeatably measured amount, regularizing the length of the bullet to extremely fine tolerances, and in doing so, can produce a small hole. Those clever American bench-resters - shooting millions of those expensive bullets every year - found that having that tiny hole there improved the already small grouping of their bullets.

The rest is history.

But please don't take my word for it - do what I did, and give Bergers a call.

Anyhow, you shouldn't be asking me, I'm not an expert. Ezridax is your man for the really modern and up-to-date target shooting stuff.

He'll either confirm or refute my posts, and then I can safely remove the whole subject.

End of my input.

tac

dev110

Bullet pointing is getting very popular with F Class shooting as of late.
This involves closing in the hollow point to increase it's BC.

Tests have been done and at a 1000 yards you are saving 1MOA of elevation and decreasing the amount of windage.

By trimming the meplat you are actually decreasing the BC as you are opening the HP more.

When you trim and point you are getting the most out of the bullet you are using.

tomcat220t

dev110 wrote: »

Bullet pointing is getting very popular with F Class shooting as of late.
This involves closing in the hollow point to increase it's BC.

Tests have been done and at a 1000 yards you are saving 1MOA of elevation and decreasing the amount of windage.

By trimming the meplat you are actually decreasing the BC as you are opening the HP more.

When you trim and point you are getting the most out of the bullet you are using.

B/C does not mean accuracy ,imo.
Would like to see where berger or other match bullets makers say they DESIGN their target heads with hollow points to aid accuracy !

tomcat220t

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - Messrs Sierra, Lapua, Hornady, Speer, Lapua, Berger, JLK and others who make bullets with tiny holes in the point would not agree with you.

Closing the jacket can often produce a somewhat faceted point, called a meplat. Sinclair make a little gauging/cutting/trimming device that effectively trims the meplat away by a repeatably measured amount, regularizing the length of the bullet to extremely fine tolerances, and in doing so, can produce a small hole. Those clever American bench-resters - shooting millions of those expensive bullets every year - found that having that tiny hole there improved the already small grouping of their bullets.

The rest is history.

But please don't take my word for it - do what I did, and give Bergers a call.

Anyhow, you shouldn't be asking me, I'm not an expert. Ezridax is your man for the really modern and up-to-date target shooting stuff.

He'll either confirm or refute my posts, and then I can safely remove the whole subject.

End of my input.

tac

Hi Tac,
Where in your first post does it back up what your saying ?Please tell me its not some copy and paste ?

Mr.Flibble

tac foley wrote: »

a cavity or hollow in the bullet nose (hollow point) to shift the projectile's centre of gravity rearwards

The hollow referred to is the space between the front of the core and the tip, marked "cavity" in the diagram. It isn't the pinhole in the tip.

The "pinhole" is, as Tomcat correctly points out, simply a corollary of making the jacket by drawing it forwards. It's done that way to get a better quality base. In pure accuracy terms the quality of the base is, by and large, much more important than that of the tip.

tomcat220t

As far as i understood the hollow point is not a big concern to accuracy because in flight its has a pocket of low pressure air in front of it .
Something like that i think !

tac foley

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Tac,
Where in your first post does it back up what your saying ?Please tell me its not some copy and paste ?

Sir - I believe that your question has been answered by somebody a lot nearer real target shooting than I am.

tac

tac foley

tomcat220t wrote: »

B/C does not mean accuracy ,imo.
Would like to see where berger or other match bullets makers say they DESIGN their target heads with hollow points to aid accuracy !

Sir - what do you mean by a 'head'? Do you mean 'bullet'?

tac

tomcat220t

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - I believe that your question has been answered by somebody a lot nearer real target shooting than I am.

tac

Hi Tac,
What was replyed is, closing the hollow point would increase b/c ...which is true .
What your claiming is the hollow point is deliberately designed to improve accuracy.....which is not true !
Accuracy and B/C are two complety different things !
What id say is you misunderstood the diagram you posted in your reply .
Regards,Tomcat.

BELOWaverageIQ

It is my understanding that the hole at the tip creates a column of air around which the bullet spins during flight therefore aiding stability.
Now I know this flies in the face of the theory behind pointing which to be honest the jury is still out on as far as I can see and hear, besides, if Brian Litz designed it with a hole up top its good enough for me!
As for the reason for trimming, this is to create uniformity as no two bullets will be the exact same length.

tomcat220t

BELOWaverageIQ wrote: »

It is my understanding that the hole at the tip creates a column of air around which the bullet spins during flight therefore aiding stability.
Now I know this flies in the face of the theory behind pointing which to be honest the jury is still out on as far as I can see and hear, besides, if Brian Litz designed it with a hole up top its good enough for me!
As for the reason for trimming, this is to create uniformity as no two bullets will be the exact same length.

Ill reply:P
Hi belowaverage IQ ,Brian Litz desinged it with a hole ??
So why would Brian Litz endorse pointing of his heads ?

So what your saying is Brian Litz (berger bullets)desinged the heads with a hole at the point to air stability ?
Why after all this ,would he endorse closing the point ?
Im not saying a hollow point would have a bad effect on accuracy nor closing the point will make it more accurate as said the air at the point of the bullet in flight seems to cancels any accuracy issues that might be assosiated with hollow points .
Closing the point gives the bullet a better B/C and makes a more consistent/Uniform bullet .
In my books ,CONSISTENCY is key to accuracy .

upandover

The idea of a stagnating airflow at the head of a bullet is hard to figure as an advantage to ballistics. May be something subtle going on in terms of the least worst ways of building a real bullet, but in theory a perfectly pointed projectile is optimal.

Ltz said the following on a related discussion

“I have measured the Berger 180 VLD in both nominal and pointed meplat configurations. Pointing the meplat from 0.059″ to 0.039″ increases the G7 BC from 0.337 lb/in² to 0.344 lb/in². This results in less than 2″ difference in 1000-yard wind drift (10 mph 90°). The improvement is small, perhaps negligible for standard decimal prone targets with large scoring rings. The improvement is more significant for F-Class targets with smaller scoring rings. That being said, I do point my own Berger 180 VLDs that I shoot in prone competition. It’s fast, easy, doesn’t hurt anything, and every little bit helps.”

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/08/brian-litz-marksman-rocket-scientist-ballistic-guru/


The same excellent site describes a far more promising line of enquiry in bullet ballistics. Quoting from an article on adopting the remarkable ballistic properties of golfballs for sniper bullets "When you design a race car to be aerodynamic, you sculpt the whole body, not just the front bumper."


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/04/us-army-team-tests-radical-new-dimpled-bullet/

BELOWaverageIQ

Hi TC,
Firstly I'm not claiming to have any definitive answer on this one at all
However I do wonder why Litz didn't design them in the same vein as FMJ instead of having the small hollow point which I'm sure could be eliminated at the manufacturing stage instead of having to point post manufacture.
I might suggest that his endorsement of pointing "might" be as much about achieving uniformity as anything else.???
What I do know is out of what I would consider to be the top 10 guys currently shooting F-tr maybe only 3 or 4 actually point.

Certainly an interesting point (Bad pun..... I'll get my coat)

tomcat220t

BELOWaverageIQ wrote: »

Hi TC,
Firstly I'm not claiming to have any definitive answer on this one at all
However I do wonder why Litz didn't design them in the same vein as FMJ instead of having the small hollow point which I'm sure could be eliminated at the manufacturing stage instead of having to point post manufacture.
I might suggest that his endorsement of pointing "might" be as much about achieving uniformity as anything else.???
What I do is out of what I would consider to be the top 10 guys currently shooting F-tr maybe only 3 or 4 actually point.

Hi BAIQ,its simple ........as in post 2...the hollow point is NOT a (accuracy) design feature of a match head ,by Mr Litz or any one else .
Its a side effect of the manufacture of the match heads .
Read my reply in the second post !
My understanding of the uniformity or not of the hole does not have much of an ill effect on accuracy but has an effect on B/C .
By your maths, closing this MAGIC hole would have an ill affect on accuracy Not correct ,imo!

Chesapeake

100% have to agree with Tomcat on this.
I remember reading about a guy that pinched the top of a round with a pliers............fired a group.............couple of mm difference to normal.
then he scratched the BASE of his bullets with a pen knife............the groups increased.

Its simple dynamics, @ 300,000 rpm anything will punch a relativley clean hole in the air, if your base is ****in up air flow then your in trouble.

When I reloaded I did this test @ 300m, pinched noses with a pliers and even snipped tips off @ 4, 5 & 6 mm with a snips and still ended up with goups to within 6mm of soft points or BT's.
When the base was scored from mildly to deeply and tip was perfect anything from 22 to 60 mm of a diff diff.

A lot of it is in the head too, I use to allways reckon and use the the serria 77gr was more accurate than the berger 80gr until I unknowingly shot them in a 600 yrd comp. (both with the same (31.2gr Viht 320) powder the 80's were 2mm tighter thats .08 of an inch in old money! - 20.5" .222mag used)

tac foley

Answers from Sierra -

Hi Tac,

First of all “the nose (meplat) of a Sierra MatchKing is small to allow us to achieve as high a BC number as possible” without resorting to another forming step (point-up). Since MatchKings are not designed to be expanding bullets aerodynamics (Ballistic Co-Efficient) are the main consideration for point design.

The actual diameter of the meplat is a function of the ejection system we use to clear the bullet from the form die, normally around .050”.

The tiny hole is present because of the thin jacket and if we closed the nose any tighter it would extrude into the ejection orifice of the form die which would make a very strange looking Sierra Bullet indeed if we could get it out of the die in the first place.

To close the nose any tighter in our process requires an extra form station (point-up) such as our NEW #2156 Palma Bullet which does have a pointed up nose with a very sharp meplat. That does eliminate the tiny hole in the nose but we have not implemented this technology to the rest of our line.

One other bullet, our #2121 125 grain .308” MatchKing for the 300 Blackout utilizes this new nose shape currently.

So, essentially, you are correct and your Irish buddy is wrong. Truthfully however, the hole is a product of our manufacturing process and not an intentional flight enhancer.

Rich Machholz

Ballistic Technician

Sierra Bullets

Answers from Walter Berger of Berger Bullets -

Hi Tac,

Rather simple on the small hole the smaller the meplat (tip of the bullet) is the higher the BC. The higher the BC the less wind deflection you will have and trajectory will be flatter. The hollow point bullet also keeps the center of mass back toward the base of the bullet where it belongs for the best accuracy.

If we can be of any additional help feel free to contact us.

Walt Berger
Berger Bullets
Technical Advisor




That's me done here.

tac

tomcat220t

Hi Tac ,THE LITTLE HOLE AT THE TIP OF A TARGET BULLET?
Where is your question to theses companys ?
Where in their reply is different to what has been said ?
Your Irish buddys is wrong ????

Well that would totally depend on what you asked or said, as to this subject !
Both replys are exactly the opposite to what your were claiming.
Where in their reply does it say the little hole is there to aid accuracy ?????
Man your a slippery fish on this subjet:P
Regards ,Tomcat.

ejg

My take is, the little hole is of no help on aerodynamics. Maybe if subsonic but not supersonic.
Them chaps making solid copper target bullets do not drill a little holes in the front, at least the ones I know of.
Very pointy copper solid bullets must be handled with care though as the tip can be damaged easily. Each bullet is held seperate in a soft foam packaging.
Maybe a consistent hollow point could lead to better accuracy even if it has lower BC than a not consistent "bent" pointed bullet.
edi

tomcat220t

tac foley wrote: »

The tiny hole at the end of any target bullet is an aerodynamic aid to accuracy, not a part of an expanding or fragmenting intention.

This is where i asked you to elaborate. A statement i believe you were incorrect on.

tac foley wrote:

That little hole in the tip of a target bullet...

Your thread title on this subject

________________________________________________________________

Sierras reply to what ever your query was

To close the nose any tighter in our process requires an extra form station (point-up) such as our NEW #2156 Palma Bullet which does have a pointed up nose with a very sharp meplat. That does eliminate the tiny hole in the nose but we have not implemented this technology to the rest of our line.

Truthfully however, the hole is a product of our manufacturing process and not an intentional flight enhancer.

Rich Machholz

Ballistic Technician

Sierra Bullets

________________________________________________________________

tac foley wrote: »

The tiny hole at the end of any target bullet is an aerodynamic aid to accuracy, not a part of an expanding or fragmenting intention.

Did you truthfully send your original statement above where this whole subject started from to Sierra and or Berger and if so how on earth could they agree that you were correct and your Irish buddy is wrong:rolleyes::rolleyes:???
________________________________________________________________

Rather simple on the small hole the smaller the meplat (tip of the bullet) is the higher the BC.

Walt Berger
Berger Bullets
Technical Advisor

Tac,i think your replys from Sierra&Berger bullets has cleared up this subjet a lot more for you than your Irish Buddys
Regards,Tomcat.

upandover

I emailed Bryan Litz on this. A very decent guy, his response follows with original email.

=========================

Hello Bryan,

I wonder if you could answer a quick question? The suggestion has been made on an Irish shooters forum that the tiny hole in the tip of a target bullet enhances accuracy. I understand the reference is to the hole in the shell of the bullet rather than the presence of any cavity on the interior.

If you would care to comment I'd love to post your response on our forum where you have already been referenced on this thread. Here's a quote from the discussion at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056721826

"Closing the jacket can often produce a somewhat faceted point, called a meplat. Sinclair make a little gauging/cutting/trimming device that effectively trims the meplat away by a repeatably measured amount, regularizing the length of the bullet to extremely fine tolerances, and in doing so, can produce a small hole. Those clever American bench-resters - shooting millions of those expensive bullets every year - found that having that tiny hole there improved the already small grouping of their bullets."

Many thanks

=======================


There are several common misconceptions about bullet tips. I'll offer the following.
1) The hole is only there because the most precise/balanced bullets are made from a 'cup-and-core' (copper jacket lead core) configuration. FMJ bullets are made 'backwards' with the opening at the rear, but these bullets aren't as precise as putting the hole in the front. This is due to the excessive forming of copper material required to bring the front of the bullet to a point, and the resulting imbalances of doing it this way. To be clear, FMJ bullets are less precise than open tip match bullets because of mechanical/balance reasons, not related to the aerodynamics of the open tip.
2) Uniforming the tip of the bullets improves precision because of the uniforming effect, not because it creates an air hole. Precise bullets could be made with their tips closed, as is done with meplat pointing dies (made by Whidden and Hoover).
3) Regarding the comment below on the sinclair meplat trimmer; it's not advisable to trim bullet tips to a uniform bullet overall length. This could lead to variations in tip diameter due to variations in bullet base-to-ogive, and nose length. The correct set-up for a trimmer is to index the cutter off the ogive, which ensures the tip is cut to a uniform diameter. That's the objective of meplat trimming: uniformity. The presence of the hole is irrelevant.

It's a common misunderstanding that the hole in the front of open tip match bullets is somehow a deliberate design to do something beneficial thru aerodynamics. However, the truth is, the most precise (cup-and-core) bullet configuration for minimizing mechanical imbalance happens to result in the hole/void in the bullet tip. In other words, the hole is not causal to precision, rather it's a symptom of the construction, where the construction is the true cause of precision.

Feel free to post the above on your forum. I hope it helps the discussion.

-Bryan

tomcat220t

ejg wrote: »

My take is, the little hole is of no help on aerodynamics. Maybe if subsonic but not supersonic.
Them chaps making solid copper target bullets do not drill a little holes in the front, at least the ones I know of.
Very pointy copper solid bullets must be handled with care though as the tip can be damaged easily. Each bullet is held seperate in a soft foam packaging.
Maybe a consistent hollow point could lead to better accuracy even if it has lower BC than a not consistent "bent" pointed bullet.
edi

Hi ejg,i would guess if the hole was any aid to accuracy at subsonic speeds it would be used in .22lr match head design ,imo.
Regards,Tomcat.

IRLConor

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi ejg,i would guess if the hole was any aid to accuracy at subsonic speeds it would be used in .22lr match head design ,imo.
Regards,Tomcat.

Possibly, though there's been very little change in the way .22lr bullets are formed. Match quality heads pretty much come in two shapes:

Eley EPS bullets:



Everyone else:



Both win lots of medals, so it's hard to say if one design is decisively better than another. I suspect that the influence of the bullet nose shape on performance in a .22lr is down in the noise compared to the impact of variations in bullet tail shape, primer, powder load, seating, rim thickness, etc.

FWIW, apparently the "nipple" on the EPS bullet is an artifact of the manufacturing process and not a deliberate aerodynamic feature.

tomcat220t

Hi Irl C ,the .22lr match ammo and whats makes them best shoot really intrigues me .
Its a whole different subjet and theory to center-fire :cool:

IRLConor

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Irl C ,the .22lr match ammo and whats makes them best shoot really intrigues me .
Its a whole different subjet and theory to center-fire :cool:

Yeah, given how error-prone the process is it's surprising how accurate the rounds are. The test group for my rifle is a 0.43MOA 10 round group. The best 7 of that 10 are at 0.12MOA. In more concrete terms, the group fits comfortably inside a 1c coin at 50m.

From the shoulder, the groups are, em... a little wider.

tomcat220t

IRLConor wrote: »

Yeah, given how error-prone the process is it's surprising how accurate the rounds are. The test group for my rifle is a 0.43MOA 10 round group. The best 7 of that 10 are at 0.12MOA. In more concrete terms, the group fits comfortably inside a 1c coin at 50m.

From the shoulder, the groups are, em... a little wider.

Hi IRL C, fine group ,what rifle and ammo was used ?

IRLConor

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi IRL C, fine group ,what rifle and ammo was used ?

A Bleiker Challenger and it probably some sort of Eley ammunition but it wasn't specified. That's the manufacturer's test group and it would have been shot indoors from a vice.

For comparison, my best 10 round group this week is approximately a 1.07MOA group, shot indoors, prone with a sling. The 60 shot match it was in was approximately 1.14MOA across.

packas

Tac,

Very interestingt to see them talk about their mfg process and how a supposidly important part of the bullet is due their manufacturing process & is not by design. Do you know if they use any flow analysis software (Solidworks Simulation Catia etc??) to take a look at air flow over the surfaces. Seeing those results/screenshots/avi's etc would be nice. Considering they're talking publically about their mfg process i presume they'd have no trouble sharing such information. When troubleshooting processes I always love to quote Kelvin:-
“I often say that when you measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers, you know something about it”
However Homer Simpson also has a profound quote that could be applied to quite a lot of chat forums:-
“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true”

tomcat220t

IRLConor wrote: »

A Bleiker Challenger and it probably some sort of Eley ammunition but it wasn't specified. That's the manufacturer's test group and it would have been shot indoors from a vice.

For comparison, my best 10 round group this week is approximately a 1.07MOA group, shot indoors, prone with a sling. The 60 shot match it was in was approximately 1.14MOA across.

Hi IRL C,
Prone shooting can sort the boys from the men:cool:.Thats fine shooting .
What weight is the rifle ?
Would you use it for 50 B/R aswell ?
Regards Tomcat .

IRLConor

tomcat220t wrote: »

Prone shooting can sort the boys from the men:cool:.Thats fine shooting .

Thanks.

tomcat220t wrote: »

What weight is the rifle ?

6.25kg / 13.75lb

tomcat220t wrote: »

Would you use it for 50 B/R aswell ?

I've only shot benchrest once and that wasn't with this rifle. I don't have a scope and don't really like shooting with scopes either. Maybe when I get too old to shoot prone someone will be kind enough to wheel me to the firing point so I can shoot benchrest then.

tac foley

Ah well, seems I was wrong after all. However, it engendered a good bit of chat that would otherwise never have happened though, didn't it?

Best to all there

tac

tomcat220t

tac foley wrote: »

Ah well, seems I was wrong after all. However, it engendered a good bit of chat that would otherwise never have happened though, didn't it?

Best to all there

tac

Hi Tac,
Not because of rights or wrongs of the topic , but i enjoyed the chat .
Has to only add to the thread when the likes of Bryan Litz ect.. gives an opinion .
I still respect your opinion on a lot of things :cool:
Regards,Tomcat.

BELOWaverageIQ

Most interesting / informative thread I have seen here in yonks & and nice to see it didn't descend into the usual dick measuring exercise

tomcat220t

More threads like this are needed ,imo.
It makes for a more educatated and interesting shooting site.
Regards Tomcat.