Irish stuff on gunbroker.com ... should I buy?

harmoniums

RIC marked Winchester 1897 Riot shotgun:



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=300113183

I called him and he told me the reserve is $2000!


Kavanagh 16 gauge:



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=300109207


When I called him to talk about both pieces he asked for my name.
When I told him my surname he told me he has a 8 gauge punt gun made by a maker of the same name "Tully"
My dad told me years ago that he remembers a Tully gun makers from Ireland, do any of you know anything of them?

juice1304

if i could i would in a heartbeat

rowa

Never heard of tully guns harmoniums, any idea where in ireland they were made ? Someone who may know is dave stroud in scarborough in england, he has written a small book/pamphlet called "irish gunmakers" , he is very into irish duelling pistols and has done a lot of research on the forgotten gunmakers of ireland.

Grizzly 45

The 1897 is very intresting with an added "C elect "type choke device.:eek:
Which in itself is an intresting piece,it doesn't look like a Cutts compensator
Sooo,there are two ways to look at this;

1] It was a personal issue gun to some RIC or Auxie/Black&Tan trooper who added this for better stopping power in shooting at our ancestors back then:p .
or
2] Somone else added this post liberation /war of independance and in its time in the USA.More likely as it isorginally a cylinder bore and not the best hunting gun.

You have a bargining point here..;)
Either way unless there is some proven written history to option no 1,this add on diminishes the value of the original gun alot below an asking price of 2000 dollars.Its no longer a genuine as issued RIC firearm so it cant be classed as such.I'd say O Malleys should be looking realistically for 1400 and happy at 1500.

Tullys
Have heard of them,but nothing more than what you have there.:(
An 8 gauge punt gun isnt that big either BTW. They were usually 2bore.

Seen a double 4 bore "Rodda,Calcutta "black powder big game rifle so even 4bore is still possible as a shoulder gun.

It could be possibly he is trying to sell you the "cripple stopper",which was a small er calibre gun the punt gunners kept for finishing off injured birds.

Or maybe its a "ladies punt gun?":D

landkeeper

are you sure it's not a tolley they made double 8 bores

harmoniums

landkeeper wrote: »

are you sure it's not a tolley they made double 8 bores

I should have pics his weekend, thanks for the heads up

Double Barrel

landkeeper wrote: »

are you sure it's not a tolley they made double 8 bores

Plus one for Tolley

I have not come across "Tully" as a maker or retailer of arms, does not mean they did not exist though.

James William Tolley Gun rifle and pistol manufacturers.
Tolley was a Birmingham maker.
Tolley guns are well respected in England and the world over. Many are still in use, especially the big 4,6,8 & 10 bore guns on the foreshore.

Double Barrel

Odd barrel length on the Kavanagh. Proof marks will tell the tale.
Wood proud of the action is a good sign.
Looks like someone cleaned up some rust/corrosion on the action also. One would need to see the gun in person or high def. photos.

FISMA

C'mon Harmoniums - BUY THEM ALL!

Your museum isn't going to stock itself!

BTW - how do you insure your guns in the States and with whom if you do not mind my asking? Also, did you have to get a rider policy? Just asking as my homeowner's only covers for $2500:mad:.

BTW - I like the Kavanaugh!

Boiled-egg

They look great, I'd love to be in a position to buy them. You should snap them up.

harmoniums

FISMA wrote: »

C'mon Harmoniums - BUY THEM ALL!

Your museum isn't going to stock itself!

BTW - how do you insure your guns in the States and with whom if you do not mind my asking? Also, did you have to get a rider policy? Just asking as my homeowner's only covers for $2500:mad:.

BTW - I like the Kavanaugh!

If your an NRA member, they insure up to 20K I think.
I made added my firearms to my homeowners on a seperate rider

harmoniums

You lads were correct, it's an 8 gauge "Tolley"

deeksofdoom

What is the story with those old RIC guns, were they not handed over to the RUC and how did they end up in the states.

harmoniums

They were probably folded into the Free State Army arsenal just like all the Enfields and then later surplused out to an importer in America.

Double Barrel

James William Tolley was born in 1832.

The firm appears to have been established in 1858 at 22 St Mary's Row, Birmingham. They started in business by making large quantities of cheap guns, some for the African market, but were soon producing higher quality guns. An 1862 advertisement stated "Gun rifle and pistol manufacturers, Contractor for Military Arms, Breech Loading Guns, Pistols, also all guns suitable for the African markets".

Double Barrel

Looking at photo, your Kavanagh has what appears to be a Webley screw grip, a 1884 Webley & Brain Patent # 3053.
The action has a threaded spindle and a simple step as a rib extension (AKA a doll's head, spade head, etc.) the top lever bolts the step on the extension, providing a third grip (as well as the Purdey double under-bolt). Use by a large number of gunmakers. They were usually built for the Trade by Webley & Scott. You will see it used extensively on double rifles by Army & Navy, Rigby, Atkin, Tolley etc. and very commonly on boxlocks by William Evans, Army & Navy, and many others. It is a very good action, often made in very good quality. It is trickier to re-joint than actions without third bites. Look out for gaps at the top forward edge of the rib extension.

PS. If a gun has the Webley and Scott screw grip then it is almost certainly a Webley built gun that was delivered complete or sold as a barreled action. Webleys to the best of my knowledge never sold action bodies on there own.

Grizzly 45

deeksofdoom wrote: »

What is the story with those old RIC guns, were they not handed over to the RUC and how did they end up in the states.

Various things happened to them.Some were kept here and liscensed to individuals,independance war vets,civil war vets,or lads looking for a cheap shotgun.Hence maybe the aftermarket choke??
Some were rebarrelled in the 20s 30,or 40s and have been lost to time.
Others were destroyed,scrapped,and proably a few more are lurking in long forgotton old IRA caches around the 32 counties.
Some were apprently exported to England,wether privately or Govt ,but apprently scuttlebutt has it a few pulled duty with the Home Gaurd that were EX RIC.

There was an exception made for those short barreled guns under the acts that they could be liscensed,I suppose they are restricted now??
A lot of collectors have been looking for them Stateside as the 1897 became a sleeping collectible in the 1980s in any shape or form,especially the riot or Trench gun version[Trench guns being the ones with the bayonet attachment and heat shield on the barrel]

All in all, each one of those RIC guns is a historical piece with its own tale of Irish history. I have seen three here in Ireland ,and had the privilidge of firing one many years ago..You can "slamfire" them.There is no disconnector in the trigger mechanism,so by holding the trigger back and working the slide it will fire right away once back in battery.:D

One thing that is missing off that 1897 here is where it says RIC and the number on the stock.There should be,or at least there was on the three guns I've seen ,the old Irish Harp symbol.Missing on this one...Wonder why??

FISMA

harmoniums wrote: »

If your an NRA member, they insure up to 20K I think.

N'ah, unfortunately they only insure up to $2500.

harmoniums wrote: »

added my firearms to my homeowners on a seperate rider

Will have to do the same.

Thanks...

harmoniums

Update, I got them both!
Neither went for the reserve at the auction.
We worked out a deal on both of them and I just sent the check today.

I had to sell some stuff, an Egyptian FN49 + 1000 rounds of 8mm ammo to help fund the deal, but I think it'll be worth it.
Besides I have an Argentine FN49 with detachable mags in 308 that I prefer!

Grizzly 45

harmoniums wrote: »

Update, I got them both!
Neither went for the reserve at the auction.
We worked out a deal on both of them and I just sent the check today.

Good man!!Another bit of Irish heritage saved!:)

I had to sell some stuff, an Egyptian FN49 + 1000 rounds of 8mm ammo to help fund the deal, but I think it'll be worth it.

No great loss TBH.It was rated as one of the top 10 POS designs in the firearms world by Gun Digest..