Fined on Dublin Bus

fasttalkerchat

IvySlayer wrote: »

They have no right to note your PPS number...

He effectively allowed it by showing the card as ID. Seemingly just walking away and catching the next bus wasn't an option as they can legally hold you until the guards arrive.

dodderangler

It's 50 quid man pay it
You drive a db7
I'm sure you can afford 50 quid if you can afford a db7

MadsL

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

That's shocking. I know there was trouble with Luas security trying this before. I saw a fight going on and heard later that they tried to detain someone who didn't have a ticket and a few bystanders stepped in.

Which side did the bystanders assist?

fasttalkerchat

dodderangler wrote: »

It's 50 quid man pay it
You drive a db7
I'm sure you can afford 50 quid if you can afford a db7

He's unemployed... I assume the DB7 part was a joke about his username.

SHOVELLER

You wouldnt have this problem if Dublin Bus had a proper fare structure. An adult fare and a child fare. No messing then and no need for inspectors.

fasttalkerchat

MadsL wrote: »

Which side did the bystanders assist?

The passanger.
He was on the ground in a headlock after trying to run off. A few people tried to pull the security man up from the passenger and there was a melee of pushing and shoving. The guards arrived at that point.

splendid101

AstonMartin wrote: »

Dublin bus inspectors can arrest people now or detain them against their will over 75c?

fook sake. next they will be carrying handguns.

Bit of a f*cking leap there. Get a grip.

Just take responsibility for your actions.

IvySlayer

AstonMartin wrote: »

They seen the card in my wallet and told me that if I didn't give them my social card so they could note down my PPS number they would take me to the nearest garda station to verify my identity.

It is an offense for any body/person to request a PPS number unless they are permitted by law.

fasttalkerchat

SHOVELLER wrote: »

You wouldnt have this problem if Dublin Bus had a proper fare structure. An adult fare and a child fare. No messing then and no need for inspectors.

They should end the 1.90 and 2.60 ****. You just name the street you're going to and pay for that.

IvySlayer

AstonMartin wrote: »

They seen the card in my wallet and told me that if I didn't give them my social card so they could note down my PPS number they would take me to the nearest garda station to verify my identity.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

He effectively allowed it by showing the card as ID. Seemingly just walking away and catching the next bus wasn't an option as they can legally hold you until the guards arrive.

Data Protection Act says no.

miller50841

AstonMartin wrote: »

I don't think I have grounds not to pay the fine.

I'm wondering if they will actually prosecute me if i don't or looking for advice on how to sweet talk my way of it it or settle for a smaller amount possibly.

Easiest thing to do is
1 grow up accept you are wrong
2 pay the fine there is no smaller amount.
3 take on advice everyone here is giving you.
4 you understand what a bus is as stated by you you use them a lot so take my advice I gave you and buy the travel90 adult smart card in any shop or when you go to Dublin Bus head office to pay the fine you then can travel on xpresso and normal services €2.15 for each 90 minute activation.

Glad got that out :eek:

MrStuffins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

They should end the 1.90 and 2.60 ****. You just name the street you're going to and pay for that.

That's what you're supposed to do.

You tell the driver where you want to go, he tells you how much to pay!

MidlandsM

AstonMartin wrote: »

I don't see how that compounds anything.

They are Dublin bus inspectors, not the guards.

that is true, and under the data protection asct, they'll not be able to find out anything about you from your pps no.......;)

miller50841

later12 wrote: »

Why do people getting so emotional over someone else's bad day? Jesus.


On two occasions I forgot (no really, forget) my seasonal Luas ticketwhen I lived in Ranelagh. I'd meet the inspectors, explain the situation and fax them a copy of the ticket the next day in work.

If you're genuine, inspectors will be flexible. But as there's no way for the inspectors to establish that you didn't make an honest mistake, they're just not in a position to help you. I'd say pay the fine and try be more careful next time, but I would see how it could be an honest mistake.

How he uses the bus a lot and knew one of the fares was €1.90 so bit lost by what he wants

later12

miller50841 wrote: »

How he uses the bus a lot and knew one of the fares was €1.90

Ah I'm not up to your speed Miss Marple. You go ahead and blow this whole cover-up outta the water.

/cigar

IvySlayer

MidlandsM wrote: »

that is true, and under the data protection asct, they'll not be able to find out anything about you from your pps no.......;)

If a Garda got whiff they took the inspectors took his PPS number they'd of been arrested on the spot...I'm not sure the OP realises how serious that can be...

fasttalkerchat

MrStuffins wrote: »

That's what you're supposed to do.

You tell the driver where you want to go, he tells you how much to pay!

I tried that (as did other posters here) and the drivers didn't know the fare or just charged the maximum for that route.
One day I noticed someone getting on at my stop every day was paying less than me to get off one stop before me... I asked him if I was paying 80c more for one extra stop. He said that you can pay whatever you want just name a price to the driver as its less hassle than making him look up the price for that exact stop.

Teyla Emmagan

Just pay the fine OP.

MidlandsM

AstonMartin wrote: »

They seen the card in my wallet and told me that if I didn't give them my social card so they could note down my PPS number they would take me to the nearest garda station to verify my identity.

they could do fuok all.......they're not the gardai.........why did'nt you tell them there is fuok all thay can do, as they're not the guards??

MidlandsM

IvySlayer wrote: »

If a Garda got whiff they took the inspectors took his PPS number they'd of been arrested on the spot...I'm not sure the OP realises how serious that can be...

utter bollox, if the OP gets a fine thru' his pps no, the data protection office will HAMMER this......

miller50841

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

They should end the 1.90 and 2.60 ****. You just name the street you're going to and pay for that.

That's what your ment to do it states where money goes in state your destination.

MagicSean

if the address turns out to be fake the inspector can report the op to the Gardaí for providing a flase address. The Gardaí can identify him from his pps without a problem and issue proceedings against him.

Squeeonline

if you do pay the fine, get a bank to change €50 into 1c, 2c, and 5c coins. Deliver it to the offices and make them count it out.

NegativeCreep

I highly doubt they'll follow this up whatsoever. I'd say what they done to you on the bus today was to scare you into paying the whole fare next time. Don't bother paying it until you get a letter or until a guard calls to your door (which won't happen because you gave them the wrong address).
They aren't going to kill themselves for the sake of getting €50 off you. They most likely threw your pps number in the bin because they can't use it anyway. You can relax, you're not going to court :L

dodderangler

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

dodderangler wrote: »

It's 50 quid man pay it
You drive a db7
I'm sure you can afford 50 quid if you can afford a db7

He's unemployed... I assume the DB7 part was a joke about his username.

Had it at mondello at the weekend and its in the shop getting a new clutch.

Seemingly the part has to be shipped from Japan and will take 3 weeks but for a few euro extra it can be shipped overnight.

That's what he said when someone said why he didn't take the db7
So I assumed he had one

fasttalkerchat

miller50841 wrote: »

That's what your ment to do it states where money goes in state your destination.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I tried that (as did other posters here) and the drivers didn't know the fare or just charged the maximum for that route.
One day I noticed someone getting on at my stop every day was paying less than me to get off one stop before me... I asked him if I was paying 80c more for one extra stop. He said that you can pay whatever you want just name a price to the driver as its less hassle than making him look up the price for that exact stop.

This ^.
Should work and how the drivers do it are two totally different things.

IvySlayer

MagicSean wrote: »

if the address turns out to be fake the inspector can report the op to the Gardaí for providing a flase address. The Gardaí can identify him from his pps without a problem and issue proceedings against him.

As I previously said Dublin Bus should have no right knowing his PPS number. Plus to get an address you need written permission from the office of the Minister, which will be rejected as they are not a state body.

Losty Dublin

Squeeonline wrote: »

if you do pay the fine, get a bank to change €50 into 1c, 2c, and 5c coins. Deliver it to the offices and make them count it out.

They won't accept it; coins can be refused as legal tender if there is more than 50 offered up in one go. It's in one of these currency acts so it's a no go. You think that you are the first one to have thought of that, have you?;)

MagicSean

IvySlayer wrote: »

As I previously said Dublin Bus should have no right knowing his PPS number. Plus to get an address you need written permission from the office of the Minister, which will be rejected as they are not a state body.

The op gave them the pps number. And they won't be the ones using it, the Gardaí will as part of investigating the crime the op committed, and the Gardaí do not need a letter to identify the owner of a pps number.

Captain Commie

Genuine mistake me arse, OP knew fine well and was trying to get away with paying less, got caught and is now trying to get out of it.

@ OP, grow up and pay the fine, you got caught, deal with it like a man and stop looking for little boy excuses not to pay!!!

fasttalkerchat

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They won't accept it; coins can be refused as legal tender if there is more than 50 offered up in one go. It's in one of these currency acts so it's a no go. You think that you are the first one to have thought of that, have you?;)

Actually not many people know that. I have rejected dirty notes from customers before because 1. I can't expect the next customer to take it as change and 2. I can't verity that the note is genuine.
There are some crazy interpretations of the meaning of "legal tender".

Anyway, OP if you have the money pay the fine. If not, there is a 90% chance that they will never track you down, if they do get your real address just send the money then.

MadsL

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The passanger.
He was on the ground in a headlock after trying to run off. A few people tried to pull the security man up from the passenger and there was a melee of pushing and shoving. The guards arrived at that point.

That is shocking, and part of what is wrong with the country. Bystanders come to the aid of the one trying to cheat the system at their expense rather than the people employed for public safety! Absolute muppets.

IvySlayer wrote: »

It is an offense for any body/person to request a PPS number unless they are permitted by law.

They didn't request it, they gave him a choice. Give us that ID or come to the Garda Station. He chose to give it to them.

IvySlayer wrote: »

Data Protection Act says no.

Where?

MidlandsM wrote: »

that is true, and under the data protection asct, they'll not be able to find out anything about you from your pps no.......;)

There is nothing wrong with tracing someone using information they gave you providing it is used for the purpose for which it is given. The OP was fully aware of the purpose for which it would be used, else he could have elected to go to the Gardai.

IvySlayer wrote: »

If a Garda got whiff they took the inspectors took his PPS number they'd of been arrested on the spot...I'm not sure the OP realises how serious that can be...

Yeah, right. Any basis for that in law.

MidlandsM wrote: »

they could do fuok all.......they're not the gardai.........why did'nt you tell them there is fuok all thay can do, as they're not the guards??

I've already quoted the bylaw, in the words of DeVore "Don't make me put it back up there!"

IvySlayer wrote: »

As I previously said Dublin Bus should have no right knowing his PPS number.

Correct, except if you supply it for the purposes of identification. Which he did.

Plus to get an address you need written permission from the office of the Minister, which will be rejected as they are not a state body.

They have a SI which grants powers of fine and detention. I doubt the minister would agree with your assessment.

Dyr

I don't think they have any business asking for ID, name and address yes, but not ID. They're just using the threat of setting the guards on ye to bully you into showing them some ID

MadsL

Bambi wrote: »

I don't think they have any business asking for ID, name and address yes, but not ID. They're just using the threat of setting the guards on ye to bully you into showing them some ID

What part of Statutory Instrument do you not understand? This isn't giving a bit of lip to some teacher in school, Inspectors have the full force of the law of the land behind them. Otherwise what is the point of them?

Jesus, show someone a rule and ten others will chip in explaining why it shouldn't apply.

fasttalkerchat

MadsL wrote: »

That is shocking, and part of what is wrong with the country. Bystanders come to the aid of the one trying to cheat the system at their expense rather than the people employed for public safety! Absolute muppets.

If it was just over fare evasion then he was being too heavy handed and it could have been much worse. Even store security do not hold someone in a head lock after an attempted robbery because of the risk it poses.

Chalk_Farm

I remember back in the day inspectors used to be always on the bus...havent seen them in years...is this something that is starting again or am I just avoiding the routes that they frequent!?

miller50841

Bambi wrote: »

I don't think they have any business asking for ID, name and address yes, but not ID. They're just using the threat of setting the guards on ye to bully you into showing them some ID

Why? The op just proves the point that I.D would be best because if he gives false details then me thinks he would not be the only one.

There is a plan to bring in drivers as ticket checkers because not enough Inspectors to do the job so I heard.

MadsL

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If it was just over fare evasion then he was being too heavy handed and it could have been much worse. Even store security do not hold someone in a head lock after an attempted robbery because of the risk it poses.

Fine line between telling the security to go easy and jumping in and pulling the security guy off him so he can escape. Let the Guards sort it out surely?

miller50841

MidlandsM wrote: »

utter bollox, if the OP gets a fine thru' his pps no, the data protection office will HAMMER this......

No they wont.
The company and it's staff including the driver can hold someone and demand name and address now there is no driver out there that would do that because they get enough hasle as it is oh and can also legally remove a passenger from the vehicle if warranted and reasonable force used to inforce such.

IvySlayer

@MadsL Section 2(1) of the Data Protection Act covers this.

fasttalkerchat

MadsL wrote: »

Fine line between telling the security to go easy and jumping in and pulling the security guy off him so he can escape. Let the Guards sort it out surely?

All I saw was this guy running away from a security guard and being caught and pulled to the ground and held in a head lock while he tried to struggle to get free. There was shouts and screams from a crowd of women behind me coming out of a shop. After a few seconds a few people tried to break it up then the guards arrived. Not sure what happened after as I didn't hang around.

I was under the impression that to legally hold someone by force they must have committed a crime with a maximum sentence of 5 years in prison (shoplifting doesn't qualify) and even at that a headlock is not proportional so someone struggling to get away.

miller50841

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If it was just over fare evasion then he was being too heavy handed and it could have been much worse. Even store security do not hold someone in a head lock after an attempted robbery because of the risk it poses.

For all we know is that passenger said Im going to stick you(knife) or (syringe) now if it was me that would be how it would have ended now saying this it could have been something else.

Some people(do gooders) need to mind their own business unless it is something serious and they really are helping someone in real danger...

fasttalkerchat

miller50841 wrote: »

For all we know is that passenger said Im going to stick you(knife) or (syringe) now if it was me that would be how it would have ended now saying this it could have been something else.

Some people(do gooders) need to mind their own business unless it is something serious and they really are helping someone in real danger...

He was clearly trying to run away. From what? I don't know for sure.
The people who stepped in were in a better position to judge. Personally I'm not the type to get involved unless it was clearly life threatening and in this case it hadn't reached that point IMO.
I hate bystanders who step in when people smack their kids but in this case I think they had a point.

And he didn't look the knife or syringe type - just a young lad, studenty type who chanced his arm and should have paid for his ticket.

Cienciano

I rarely get the bus, but I always tell the bus driver my destination and he tells me the fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyb1KYiFkBM

MadsL

IvySlayer wrote: »

@MadsL Section 2(1) of the Data Protection Act covers this.

Keep reading....

Section 2(1) (c) of the Data Protection Acts, provides that a data controller shall not further process personal data (which includes disclosure to a third party), except in ways that are compatible with the purpose for which the data were obtained.

However, this non-disclosure rule is not unqualified. Section 8 of the Act lifts the restriction on disclosure in certain circumstances, so that disclosures may be made in cases where the individual's right to privacy must be balanced against other needs of civil society, or where the disclosure is in the interests of the individual. The circumstances specified in section 8 are listed below, along with some explanatory comments.

Section 8(a) "in the opinion of the Garda Siochana not below the rank of chief superintendent or an officer of the Permenant Defence Forces who holds an army rank not below colonel and is designated by the Minister for Defence under this paragraph, required for the purpose of safeguarding the security of the State"

Section 8(b) "required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State, a local authority or a health board, in any case in which the application of those restrictions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters aforesaid"

Comment: The individual’s right to privacy must be balanced against the need to investigate offences and collect taxes effectively.

You are also under the misapprehension that data supplied for ID purposes may not be used for ID purposes. The OP gave his details to the Inspector, it would be lawful for the Inspector to use those details to ID the OP - including his true address for the purposes of prosecuting the offence. That was the purpose for which the data was given, and consented to by the OP. His alternative was to verify his identity to a member of AGS. He chose not to, and it was an informed choice as only an idiot would assume that his PPS would not be used to ID him to prosecute the offence.

However, it is an interesting area for DP/Legal discussion so I'll open a Legal Discussion thread.

Dyr

MadsL wrote: »

What part of Statutory Instrument do you not understand? This isn't giving a bit of lip to some teacher in school, Inspectors have the full force of the law of the land behind them. Otherwise what is the point of them?

Jesus, show someone a rule and ten others will chip in explaining why it shouldn't apply.

jesus f***king wept, show me, where exactly in the statutory instrument inspectors or other authorised persons are given the right to demand ID in order to confirm the passengers identity. Go ahead there bud.

They are using the threat of something that they are entitled to do (call the coppers and have them confirm the persons ID) to make the person "voluntarily" comply with a request that they have no grounds to make

fasttalkerchat

Bambi wrote: »

jesus f***king wept, show me, where exactly in the statutory instrument inspectors or other authorised persons are given the right to demand ID in order to confirm the passengers identity. Go ahead there bud.

They are using the threat of something that they are entitled to do (call the coppers and have them confirm the persons ID) to make the person "voluntarily" comply with a request that they have no grounds to make

In fairness asking someone to show ID to buy alcohol is doing the same thing. Recording someone's PPS number is where there may have been a data protection infringement (I'll leave that for the experts). I don't think they can force you to show ID although posts earlier would suggest they have the power to make you stay until the guards arrive (within reason).

MadsL

Bambi wrote: »

jesus f***king wept, show me, where exactly in the statutory instrument inspectors or other authorised persons are given the right to demand ID in order to confirm the passengers identity. Go ahead there bud.

They are using the threat of something that they are entitled to do (call the coppers and have them confirm the persons ID) to make the person "voluntarily" comply with a request that they have no grounds to make

So you are supporting wasting the Guards time? They gave him a very clear choice - show us ID and we won't have to involve the Guards - he chose to give them ID. Do they have the right to offer that choice, of course they do. You, I expect, would sit there mumbling something about 'no right to ask' and would end up dragging a Guard into it when they could be doing something more useful than dealing with a muppet who can't see that fare-dodging isn't socially acceptable.

edit:

39. Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

(b) The person aforesaid shall on the request of the authorised person remain in the company of the authorised person pending verification of the name and address.

You want to work on your reading.

miller50841

Bambi wrote: »

jesus f***king wept, show me, where exactly in the statutory instrument inspectors or other authorised persons are given the right to demand ID in order to confirm the passengers identity. Go ahead there bud.

They are using the threat of something that they are entitled to do (call the coppers and have them confirm the persons ID) to make the person "voluntarily" comply with a request that they have no grounds to make

Its all there in bye laws technicaly same powers as guards appart from the arresting bit and cuffs thats one thing they cant do but sure with ones like you around it makes their job very dificult and the Inspectors are not stupid cameras all over the bus or train.
Its easier for them if they dont enforce the rules(law) you wont see them at night or on certain bad routes.
Do gooders really do hate them just mind your own business do gooders

miller50841

One problem that CIE always had was protecting their revenue, and when they do it's looked down apon the reason this thread started is the OP was looking for a way out of paying for a mistake he made NOT THE COMPANY, NOT THE DRIVER AND NOT THE INSPECTOR...

If you travel on the LUAS there are ticket checkers and security everywhere, it's funny never see anyone complaining about that.


Look at it this way you travel and always pay correct fare and yet another person travels further then you all the time for the minimum fare and gets away with it just wondering does that annoy you ?