Oliver Cromwell: Son Of A Bitch

Me_Grapes

Just looking at the 'people who should be assassinited' thread......and not one person has mentioned auld Ollie. Sure, even Daniel O'Donnell got an assassination wish for god sake.

Does anyone else not think he gets an easy ride in the histroy books? For me he's right up there in the asshole stakes with Hitler, Mussoloni, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ryan Turbity.

The man wished the elimination..... and even worse wished emigration to Connaught for all Irish people.

Yet the man is given an almost hero status in Britian, and his desire for the murder of all Irish men, women and childern is brushed under the carpet when teaching the kids in British schools about the bollix.

All in all, I think the man is a bit of a granny fanny.


Agree?

MadsL

You know, that search thread button is useful.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hmm. Saul of Tarsus, aka St Paul, probably set up the largest amount of bloodletting in the world; a good candidate (if you think assassination is a good idea, which I don't, but I'll play this game for now).

Genghis Khan, who had all men taller than the axle of an oxcart killed in every country he invaded.

Hernando da Soto, whose pigs spread viruses that killed off most of the indigenous population of North America.

Stalin, whose mass deportations, agricultural craziness and extermination of the kulaks (big farmers) killed millions.

Hitler, and all who rode with him, natch, and Mao and Pol Pot - and also those who set up the conditions that made people want to follow them. By the same token, those who negotiated the Versailles 'agreement' ending the Great War. And the stupid Kaiser. And the British and Turkish imperialists battling for world control. And the British who addicted the Chinese to opium, wrecked their economy by stealing their tea secrets. And and and

Wait... I'd forgotten Ireland. Dermot MacMurrough, certainly. Cuchulainn, nasty little pet-killing creep. King James, Chichester, Cromwell, most of Grattan's parliament. Every English tax-maker that invented a tariff impoverishing Ireland. Spencer, Ralegh. That useless creep Bonnie Prince Charlie. The quarrelsome chieftains who failed to unite. The Icelander who killed Brian Boru, who could have united the country and caused it to change to a country of unity rather than a series of hegemonies. Trevalyan. The Famine Queen. Those who profited from 1916 and stampeded over the dead, to positions of privilege. Those who drove out the left wing during and after the Civil War. Those who used that Civil War to avenge personal slights and fatally express personal enmities.

Those who reacted to the awful crime that was 9/11 as if it were an act of war rather than a crime by a small group of homicidal maniacs.

Those who wiped out the Neanderthals. Those responsible for the danger to climate that looks quite likely to end human life on this planet within the next 50 to 100 years.

Ooops, for a pacifist I'm getting into this a bit too much. Will stop now.

Me_Grapes

MadsL wrote: »

You know, that search thread button is useful.

One person.

Thats as many people as who wanted Wile E. Coyote whacked.

jayteecork

He was grand.

marketty

I could be wrong on this but I'm fairly sure he's already dead

DEFTLEFTHAND

Bloody republican if there ever was such a thing.

MadsL

Probably too obvious a choice, not worth a thread I reckon.

In fairness he didn't much like royalty, him and Gerry would have got on grand.

Wompa1

In fairness to him, he was right about the Catholic church but yeah...some f**ker. It's amazing that he's still so hated by the Irish of today. Seems like the rest of the world has let it go but we're rightly not forgetting what he did..the prick

MadsL

Bloody New Model Army fans and their clogs!

RobbingBandit

No one mentioned Edward Carson or Lord Cornwallis neither and those two fcukers would be at least two thirds up the Cromwell ladder. Who gives a damn though all three of these kunts are rotting in the ground now, let's focus our hatred on rappers and politicians not on dead Huns.

mathepac

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Bloody republican if there ever was such a thing.

Revered by the Brits whose double standards won't allow anyone to refer to him as a republican terrorist, racist, genocidal maniac or persecutor of the English.

mfceiling

Son of a bitch?

Not really sure....I never knew his mother

Grayson

mathepac wrote: »

Revered by the Brits whose double standards won't allow anyone to refer to him as a republican terrorist, racist, genocidal maniac or persecutor of the English.

I've seen a lot ofg stuff in the UK media over the last few years about him. He was a bastard and they know it. I believe 1/3 of their population died in the civil war. And far more brits were killed or sent off to penal colonies than irish.

His dealings in ireland were either better or on a par with his behaviour in the UK.

Cee-Jay-Cee

He was a cunt.

mattjack

Me_Grapes wrote: »

Just looking at the 'people who should be assassinited' thread......and not one person has mentioned auld Ollie. Sure, even Daniel O'Donnell got an assassination wish for god sake.

Does anyone else not think he gets an easy ride in the histroy books? For me he's right up there in the asshole stakes with Hitler, Mussoloni, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ryan Turbity.

The man wished the elimination..... and even worse wished emigration to Connaught for all Irish people.

Yet the man is given an almost hero status in Britian, and his desire for the murder of all Irish men, women and childern is brushed under the carpet when teaching the kids in British schools about the bollix.

All in all, I think the man is a bit of a granny fanny.


Agree?

A what ? Granny fanny ?
At the moment the gob****e who started his lawnmower two doors up from me at 8.30 this morning is top of my list.

Mr. CooL ICE

Me_Grapes wrote: »

The man wished the elimination..... and even worse wished emigration to Connaught for all Irish people.

Did he? Are you sure?

MadsL

mathepac wrote: »

Revered by the Brits whose double standards won't allow anyone to refer to him as a republican terrorist, racist, genocidal maniac or persecutor of the English.

Now who is being racist?

However, Cromwell's reputation was indelibly stained by notorious massacres at Drogheda and Wexford, which have lived on in Irish folk memory, making his name into one of the most hated in Irish history.

http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/biog/oliver-cromwell.htm

The Big Question: Was Cromwell a revolutionary hero or a genocidal war criminal?

IrishAm

Rabid republican, racial beliefs, hated the British monarchy, supported the death penalty.

Reminds me of someone.....

:pac:

Duggy747

Oliver Cùntwell, more like.

mike65

Todays Brit bash thread has started early and yet is rather too quiet for comfort....where is everyone? Oh its Saturday, they're all in bed.

Quatermain

As I recall, there was an occasion when the new left-wing government of England was settling in, they took down a painting of Disraeli in the main meeting room, which deeply offended a particular embassy, and put up one of Cromwell. The very first meeting they had was with an Irish diplomat. Awkwardness reigned.

Not actually hating. I just think that's hilarious.

donegal_road

my Great, g, g, g, g, g grandfather was the last Irish chieftain to be hanged as a rebel by Cromwell in 1653 (not joking)

Colmustard

Cromwell was a cnut, but so where most leaders back then, that is the way warfare was fought, general slaughters and conquering.

Genocide is only a modern word around since the end of WW2 up to then no-one cared, except the victims of course. Genocide was just seen as part of warfare. There were no accepted rules of war or war crimes.

So in a modern sense Cromwell was a cnut and a war criminal. But back then, its still controversial, he did kill a king to become a king, but he strengthened the power parliament and germinated the seed of parliamentary representative democracy as we know it today and forever ended the god given divine rights of kings.

So history will forever be controversial when it comes to Oliver.

Cú Giobach

mike65 wrote: »

Todays Brit bash thread has started early and yet is rather too quiet for comfort....where is everyone? Oh its Saturday, they're all in bed.

The literal Brit bashing should happen around 20:45 this evening, hopefully.

NinjaK

Me_Grapes wrote: »

Just looking at the 'people who should be assassinited' thread......and not one person has mentioned auld Ollie. Sure, even Daniel O'Donnell got an assassination wish for god sake.

Does anyone else not think he gets an easy ride in the histroy books? For me he's right up there in the asshole stakes with Hitler, Mussoloni, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ryan Turbity.

The man wished the elimination..... and even worse wished emigration to Connaught for all Irish people.

Yet the man is given an almost hero status in Britian, and his desire for the murder of all Irish men, women and childern is brushed under the carpet when teaching the kids in British schools about the bollix.

All in all, I think the man is a bit of a granny fanny.


Agree?

boards is full of west brits, they probably support what he did

Colmustard

NinjaK wrote: »

boards is full of west brits, they probably support what he did

I'm more an East Brit.

Wibbs

Colmustard wrote: »

Cromwell was a cnut, but so where most leaders back then, that is the way warfare was fought, general slaughters and conquering.

At times compared to some in his army he was a better bet

So history will forever be controversial when it comes to Oliver.

+1

Cú Giobach

AEDIC

Me_Grapes wrote: »

Just looking at the 'people who should be assassinited' thread......and not one person has mentioned auld Ollie. Sure, even Daniel O'Donnell got an assassination wish for god sake.

Does anyone else not think he gets an easy ride in the histroy books? For me he's right up there in the asshole stakes with Hitler, Mussoloni, Stalin, Pol Pot and Ryan Turbity.

The man wished the elimination..... and even worse wished emigration to Connaught for all Irish people.

Yet the man is given an almost hero status in Britian, and his desire for the murder of all Irish men, women and childern is brushed under the carpet when teaching the kids in British schools about the bollix.

All in all, I think the man is a bit of a granny fanny.


Agree?

Huh?? The man was as big a cnut over there as he was here..... not sure that he has hero status anywhere.

Colmustard

I am following that Sky Atlantic series the Borgias, it dramatises, the selling of indulgences, the power struggles, the hypocrisy and general C church corruption. t's a camp show and not terribly accurate but the gist of the church back then is all there.

Now on mature recollection of history us Irish should have went with Cromwell and Protestantism or puritanism, that would have saved us a lot of bother which still effects us today.

So all the Irish back then should have joined Oliver's army.

Duckworth_Luas

Colmustard wrote: »

I am following that Sky Atlantic series the Borgias, it dramatises, the selling of indulgences, the power struggles, the hypocrisy and general C church corruption. t's a camp show and not terribly accurate but the gist of the church back then is all there.

Now on mature recollection of history us Irish should have went with Cromwell and Protestantism or puritanism, that would have saved us a lot of bother which still effects us today.

So all the Irish back then should have joined Oliver's army.

Oh for ****s sake!!!!!!! I've read some stupid **** on Boards but this is the Katie Taylor gold medal winner!

Curly Judge

From my reading of Irish history, what happened post William of Orange was far worse than anything post Oliver Cromwell.

later12

When is history ever black and white. It's not even black and white on what Hitler was doing in Germany (yeah yeah, well it isn't).

Just like Hitler though, all of the good things that Cromwell did - however socially perverted the genesis of his ideals - do not outstrip nor excuse the bad.

I think people get irritated when the positive features of Cromwell's reign (and it was a reign) are pointed out. That's because sometimes people prefer black and white caricatures of men, and the prospect of a portrait in technicolour threatens to dissipate their long held passions associated with Cromwell, and patriotism, and Ireland. Also, trolls like to do it a lot.

I don't feel like celebrating Cromwell; I don't think he should be celebrated anywhere on these islands. But some of his breakthroughs do deserve a positive recognition, I think that's reasonable.

Anyway, if you are the vengeful type, the story of his unfortunate head is worth a read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell's_head

Colmustard

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Oh for ****s sake!!!!!!! I've read some stupid **** on Boards but this is the Katie Taylor gold medal winner!

How about this then.

I am for putting a big statue of him on Horseback in bronze across from the GPO just to p1ss off all the nationalists.

Colmustard

The thing about history is, it changes all the time.

Duckworth_Luas

Colmustard wrote: »

How about this then.

I am for putting a big statue of him on Horseback in bronze across from the GPO just to p1ss off all the nationalists.

What nationalists? Cromwell is a hero to British nationalists!

Anyway, why would you like to have a statue of your hero outside a knickers shop?

Seriously, grow up!

Wibbs

Colmustard wrote: »

I am following that Sky Atlantic series the Borgias, it dramatises, the selling of indulgences, the power struggles, the hypocrisy and general C church corruption. t's a camp show and not terribly accurate but the gist of the church back then is all there.

They could each be as bad as the other. At that time the Protestant churches were killing way more "witches" and heretics than the inquisition(the italian inquisition couldn't even hand down death sentences). They had swivel eyed loony witch finders paid to round up and frame people for witchcraft. Puritans, just one of the mad number of post reformation sects(they were damn near coming up with a new one every week in England) were... well puritanical. Restrictive, joyless fcukers*. The phrase "he/she has catholic tastes" meaning they have a wide range of tastes illustrates the differences. Corruption and power struggles were just as rife.

That Borgia pope while being OTT in some respects was also one of the few popes to not be a towering anti semite. He gave sanctuary to thousands from the rest of Europe and let them keep practicing their faith. That Borgias show while entertaining is about as historically accurate as the Tudors. The real Borgia pope was a short tubby Spaniard with a big nose. Jeremy Irons he was not.

Heel of the hunt, Prod or Cath they could be as equally good or as equally batshít crazy and evil as each other.





*they didn't wear black either as believe it or not black was considered ostentatious because it was expensive to get a colourfast black dye. They wore muted browns.

Colmustard

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

What nationalists? Cromwell is a hero to British nationalists!

Anyway, why would you like to have a statue of your hero outside a kickers shop?

Seriously, grow up!

A "British nationalist" LOL

Do not think it would look good on the traffic Island across from the GPO. For entertainment we could watch all the nationalist faint when it is unveiled.

later12

Colmustard wrote: »

A "British nationalist" LOL

gutenberg

Wibbs wrote: »

They could each be as bad as the other. At that time the Protestant churches were killing way more "witches" and heretics than the inquisition(the italian inquisition couldn't even hand down death sentences). They had swivel eyed loony witch finders paid to round up and frame people for witchcraft. Puritans, just one of the mad number of post reformation sects(they were damn near coming up with a new one every week in England) were... well puritanical. Restrictive, joyless fcukers*. The phrase "he/she has catholic tastes" meaning they have a wide range of tastes illustrates the differences. Corruption and power struggles were just as rife.

That Borgia pope while being OTT in some respects was also one of the few popes to not be a towering anti semite. He gave sanctuary to thousands from the rest of Europe and let them keep practicing their faith. That Borgias show while entertaining is about as historically accurate as the Tudors. The real Borgia pope was a short tubby Spaniard with a big nose. Jeremy Irons he was not.

Heel of the hunt, Prod or Cath they could be as equally good or as equally batshít crazy and evil as each other.





*they didn't wear black either as believe it or not black was considered ostentatious because it was expensive to get a colourfast black dye. They wore muted browns.

Bolded bit: I can assure that they did.

LordSutch

NinjaK wrote: »

boards is full of west brits, they probably support what he did

Will never forgive him what he did to the Abbeys, Glastonbury Abbey comes to mind :mad: Cromwell was/is a hero to many, and in equal measure his memory is a curse (I fall into this catagory) - who the hell did he think he was anyway? Complicated character was Cromwell, and it certainly wasnt black and white when it cam to his time In Ireland, he came here to make war with the Royalists didn't he? The Irish being in the line of fire? < questionmark?

Colmustard

Wibbs wrote: »

They could each be as bad as the other. At that time the Protestant churches were killing way more "witches" and heretics than the inquisition(the italian inquisition couldn't even hand down death sentences). They had swivel eyed loony witch finders paid to round up and frame people for witchcraft. Puritans, just one of the mad number of post reformation sects(they were damn near coming up with a new one every week in England) were... well puritanical. Restrictive, joyless fcukers*. The phrase "he/she has catholic tastes" meaning they have a wide range of tastes illustrates the differences. Corruption and power struggles were just as rife.

That Borgia pope while being OTT in some respects was also one of the few popes to not be a towering anti semite. He gave sanctuary to thousands from the rest of Europe and let them keep practicing their faith. That Borgias show while entertaining is about as historically accurate as the Tudors. The real Borgia pope was a short tubby Spaniard with a big nose. Jeremy Irons he was not.

Heel of the hunt, Prod or Cath they could be as equally good or as equally batshít crazy and evil as each other.





*they didn't wear black either as believe it or not black was considered ostentatious because it was expensive to get a colourfast black dye. They wore muted browns.

LOL
To say the least about that show, but like the Tuders (another camp show) it is entertaining and Henry the 8th was no jonathan rhys meyers.

But my central point is you cannot judge history or its players using modern sentiments or values. Religion was real to them, as was the fires of hell, democracy and the rights of man was a fledgling idea, one which ironically was started with Cromwell's regicide.

Although his revolution largely failed and led to the restoration. Parliament was never to be weakened again and from that it grew into modern democracy. Modern Democracy was not Cromwell purpose. it was very far from it. But his revolution did germinate it.

hooradiation

Colmustard wrote: »

I'm more an East Brit.

More of a South Brit myself - it's pretty sweet deal, we get the most of the days sun for a start.

Kotek Besar

Guys why do you all hate Oliver Cromwell so much? I'm English and I remember being in year 5 in primary school, learning history, and we were all taught that Oliver Cromwell was great. What are they teaching you all in Irish schools??

Colmustard

later12 wrote: »

He means a unionist as in Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland (act of union etc)

Duckworth_Luas

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Guys why do you all hate Oliver Cromwell so much? I'm English and I remember being in year 5 in primary school, learning history, and we were all taught that Oliver Cromwell was great. What are they teaching you all in Irish schools??

The history of Ireland!

golden lane

history is not made......it just happens.....

LordSutch

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The history of Ireland!

But is the history of Cromwell properly taught here???

later12

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Guys why do you all hate Oliver Cromwell so much? I'm English and I remember being in year 5 in primary school, learning history, and we were all taught that Oliver Cromwell was great. What are they teaching you all in Irish schools??

Ah come off it.

Well sure you know yourself, the same really. Great fella. Said his prayers & kissed his mother & went to bed, quiet chap, Cromwell.

Colmustard wrote: »

He means a unionist as in Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland (act of union etc)

No British Unionism is similar to British Nationalism, but Nationalism is a wider movement encompassing more issues as opposed to the maintenance of the Union.

Kotek Besar

LordSutch wrote: »

But is the history of Cromwell properly taught here???

I'd question whether history of anything is taught properly in Ireland. A while back my friend's 10 year old son was chatting to me about his day in school here in Waterford. He told me that they were learning history. The teacher was reading and encouraged the pupils that every time she mentioned the word "English" that they should boo.

Colmustard

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Guys why do you all hate Oliver Cromwell so much? I'm English and I remember being in year 5 in primary school, learning history, and we were all taught that Oliver Cromwell was great. What are they teaching you all in Irish schools??

We were thought he was the big big boogey man and if we were bold he would take us away in our sleep. I kid you not.

I don't think the Catholic church ever forgave him and in general they were the ones that set the curriculum in this country.

I don't know what the curriculum is like now but in my time if you liked history you were better off studying it yourself.